our guest for episode 8 is brianna punsalang! brianna is co-owner of coyote supply co, a qbipoc owned zero waste witch store in reno, nevada. you can find them online at coyotesupplyco.com and on instagram and tiktok @coyotesupplyco.

take the fibre witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz. follow us on instagram @snortandcackle and be sure to subscribe via your favourite podcasting app so you don't miss an episode!

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transcript

snort & cackle - season 4, episode 8 - brianna punsalang

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] Hello, and welcome to the Snort and Cackle podcast where every day magic, work and ritual intersect. I'm your host, Ash Alberg, a queer fibre witch and hedge witch. Each season we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #SnortAndCackleBookClub with a book review by me and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. Our book this season is Babaylan Sing Back: Philippine Shamans and Voice, Gender and Place by Grace Nono.

Whether you're an aspiring boss witch looking to start your knitwear design business, a plant witch looking to play more with your local naturally dyed color palette or a knit witch wondering just what the hell is a natural yarn and how do you use it in your favorite patterns, we've got the solution for you.

Take the free fiber witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz and find out which self-paced online program will help you take your dreams into reality. Visit ashalberg.com/quiz [upbeat music fades out] and then join fellow fiber witches in the Creative Coven Community at ashalberg.com/creative-coven-community for 24/7 access to Ash’s favorite resources, monthly zoom knit nights, and more. [End of intro.]

I am so excited. I am here with Brianna Punsalang, who is the cone owner of Coyote Supply Co., a queer, BIPOC-owned, zero waste witch store in Reno, Nevada, which there's just like multiple cool things about all of that. Hi, how are you?

brianna punsalang: [Giggles.] Good. Good. Thank you so much for having me.

ash alberg: Thanks for joining. I love ... so, we got connected through our mutual friend, Marissa, who you guys, I guess connected because of zero waste land, but like the combo of zero waste and witch stuff is amazing. I, it's just, it's so cool. I was on your website the other day and adding multiple things then like looking at my credit card bill and being like, I can't hit go yet, but ... [Giggle-snorts.]

brianna punsalang: [Laughs.] We do ship internationally.

ash alberg: I would like half the store.

brianna punsalang: It is expensive, but we do it.

ash alberg: Oh man. You know what, the currency exchange right now is not in my favor, except when I get paid by Americans. And then I'm like, this is great. [Chuckles.]

brianna punsalang: Yeah. I know. I'm dealing with some Canadian wholesale inquiries right now and I'm like, what is shipping? I don't even know.

ash alberg: Oh, yeah, no, it's ah, it's actually, it's better right now than ... I remember when Trump was still in and started fucking with USPS and literally it was one of those things where I was like, okay, a) he's stupid, b) this is not my country. But like I had three wholesale orders within the span of about as many weeks arrive severely damaged.

I was like, somebody needs to deal with this man specifically just for my small business. Like what the fuck? [Snorts.]

brianna punsalang: Yeah. Yeah. I'm hoping we get rid of the joy soon. ash alberg: Yes! Like, I can't under –
[Both talking at the same time.]
brianna punsalang: ... in general.

ash alberg: How is he still there? I don't understand. Like I realize that ... brianna punsalang: I don’t know.

ash alberg: ... the like the wheels of government move slow, but this is ... there's just certain things that are really obvious that should be done.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad other people see that too, not just people living here.

ash alberg: I, yeah. I’m sure we'll get into the politics of doing things. But so, tell us a bit about who you are and what you do in the world.

brianna punsalang: So I own Coyote Supply Co., as you mentioned in Reno, Nevada. I, my main thing is that I like find all the treasures, make sure that I vet all of the magical makers that we carry, that they're either queer, BIPOC, or some other marginalized identity. They're using sustainable practices, ethical practices. But if they are white, that they're doing active anti-racism work.

ash alberg: Yes.
brianna punsalang: And then I just put everything on the shelves and hope

people find it. [Chuckles.] And it's been going okay so far.

ash alberg: That's fantastic. It's also, I think I feel like people don't understand how much fucking work goes into, not even just ... like finding people is one thing. And then the level of vetting that you have to do is like a whole other ... COVID almost made it a little bit easier because you could literally just start just being like, okay, you don't have a mask policy, you're automatically out.

It became a little bit quicker, but now that things are starting to shift again, I like, I find myself like checking out Instagram accounts for different stores and I'm like, oh, nobody's wearing masks. And then I like, think of the location. I'm like, oh, because literally nobody wears masks in that location period. So I can't use that as my vetting measure anymore.

brianna punsalang: [Laughs.] Yeah, definitely. I do think COVID, in some ways, did make it easier though, to find makers because it shifted everyone online.

ash alberg: Yeah, that's true.

brianna punsalang: So before COVID we were having a real problem like finding enough diversity to make sure that we were stocking our shelves with makers, but the faces of the makers reflected us and our communities since we have a very diverse coven.

So once everyone shifted online, it's been so much easier. So now we're like, the makers definitely reflect who shops in our store, which is great.

ash alberg: That's amazing. I also love that you're like able to actually have a, have people feel comfortable like coming to your store. I feel like that's a whole other part of running a brick and mortar that people, especially white people, like definitely overlook because they just feel comfortable walking in wherever.

brianna punsalang: Right.

ash alberg: But especially running a witch store and then a zero waste store, like multiple parts of that can be really tricky when you're like from any marginalized community to actually feel safe like walking in, like it's ...

brianna punsalang: Yeah, especially like where we're located, because it is like a fairly rural area. So like Reno is one of the bigger cities in Nevada, but we have a lot of rural populations that are underserved surrounding us, so I do have some customers driving in from like Fallon or like Winnemucca, which is several hours away from us.

ash alberg: Wow.

brianna punsalang: And it's nice that they, like you said, they feel comfortable shopping with us. And that was a big motivation for Michael and I to open the store originally, was that when he moved up here from Southern California, it didn't feel comfortable in most spaces in Reno.

ash alberg: Yeah, I feel ...
brianna punsalang: So I was just thinking about like, why?

ash alberg: Yes. And I feel especially as a Canadian, when I think of like the stereotypes that I know of Nevada and California, like having visited both, but like very briefly, not in any sort of way where I really understand the intricacies of living in those places, like when I think of, okay, what are the stereotypes of what I would think, I very much can see that as being tricky.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. It's still very like wild west here.

ash alberg: It's beautiful. Like landscape-wise, I actually really love like Nevada, Montana. Like all those places, I'm like, if I can remove most of the humans, honestly, because also just generally I want to remove humans from places I go. [Laugh-snorts.] I'm like, if I can just have the landscape and the wildlife, I am very happy in these places.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. I don't think we'll be moving, I think Reno’s definitely our forever home, but it was a huge culture shock coming from like a really diverse, fast-paced Southern California to a really slow small town because Reno really is the biggest little city.

It's a decent sized city, but it's very small town in terms of the politics and everyone knows everybody and everybody is up in each other's business and that can be really good, but it can also be frustrating.

ash alberg: Totally. Yeah. The like claustrophobia that can kick in. sometimes.

It's funny ‘cause Winnipeg is also known for that, but I have also lived in Halifax, which I'm like nobody in Winnipeg ... like in Winnipeg, if you break up with somebody, you can actually avoid them. Whereas in Halifax you don't have an option.

Unless it was a straight up abusive relationship, you just have to learn how to be friends again. There's no avoiding anybody. And if you want to gossip about something, then if you go to the coffee shop to gossip, the person you're talking about is either sitting behind you or their current partner is sitting behind you and/or their best friend and cousin are also sitting behind you. So like ...

brianna punsalang: Or the barista. Yeah, for sure.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. [Both laugh.]

brianna punsalang: Yeah. That's how it is here too.

ash alberg: Too funny. Oh man, it's lovely sometimes, but yeah. It can get a little exhausting.

brianna punsalang: Yeahh. Like the community-mindedness is great and it's definitely like how we've survived this long, but sometimes it is hard ‘cause like I do have really firm boundaries and I feel ... I'm not sure if it's like a race thing or if it's me being from Southern California so it is like a cultural thing, but they're not usually well-received up here. [Chuckles.]

So I feel like people think I'm difficult to deal with, but it's really, I'm very blunt. I'm very straightforward. I have very firm boundaries and I will not like usually allow them to be disrespected. So I think that's weird coming from a person that like, looks like oh, large body Asian femme.

Like I don't think people know what to do with that. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Yeah I can ... I immediately am like, oh, I know exactly what those white people are thinking, like Jesus Christ.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. They're like, I thought you're supposed to be quiet and submissive and no. I'm not. I’m indigenous Filipino. We don't do that. [Laughs.] We’re actually head hunters, but thank you.

ash alberg: And it's tricky too, like when I think of when I think of my friend who runs a very well-known brick and mortar in Halifax, he's similar in terms of being really well-known within the queer community and needing to have those very clear boundaries of, if you know him really well, you get one side of him and if you don't, you get another side, which is like very lovely and pleasant and welcoming, but like also has very clear like lines of what he will and won't tolerate and how he does and doesn't engage with other people.

brianna punsalang: Mhmm. Yeah. I definitely think that's probably how I'm perceived because I feel like people who know me well are like, oh, Bri's such a sweetheart. And then other people are like, really? [Both laugh, Ash snorts.]

I think it’s somewhere in the middle.

ash alberg: I do the opposite where I'm like, I'm a bitch up front, and then if you get to know me ... It works really well. I just like filter people out really early. It's been serving me fine. [Both laugh.]

It's, yeah, I feel especially when you like run a business, especially when it's like service-based or retail-based, people are just like, there's still definitely also that thought process of like customer is always right and you should be catered to and all these things.

And I'm like, I'm willing to do that if you're a nice person, like I will happily go above and beyond. But if you come in expecting that and there's definitely like part of it can be generational, but I think also there's just anytime somebody comes in and is super entitled, I'm immediately like, nope, fuck off. Don’t need your money. I'm not gonna, I don't have the emotional bandwidth to deal with this on an ongoing basis.

brianna punsalang: I think because we're in such a weird location, we ... ‘cause we're like a tiny 200 square foot upstairs store in a really old, unassuming building, so I think a lot of people like blow past us when they're walking around. So we tend to not get very many difficult customers. Like I can only think of one customer that’s been obnoxious in two and a half years.

And it was just like I think they were just like a cis-het person in a queer dominated space and they were uncomfortable.

ash alberg: Yes, totally.
brianna punsalang: I think that's what that was ‘cause they were offended by a

Hex the Patriarchy button that we have.

ash alberg: I feel like when I think of this, the items that I scanned in your store, there were like multiple other things ... although I find this is a similar ... it's the fuck words that will tip them over the edge, whereas all of the rest of it, I'm like, all of the rest of this should actually be the thing that is bothering you and probably it is, but you're going to zone in on the fuck ‘cause that's the easy one.

brianna punsalang: When we first launched, oh god, I think probably twenty-five percent of our merchandise had fuck in it. [Ash cackles.] I think we just weeded them out from the get-go.

ash alberg: Yes. It works really well. It is a good weeding tool, I find.

brianna punsalang: [Both chuckle.] Yeah. So they're definitely not phased by that, but yeah, the Hex the Patriarchy button like really pissed off a customer over the holiday season. I'm like, okay, you're in the wrong space. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Yeah. This is the thing. It's, you're welcome to leave now. Like we're not going to not have this. Also this is like the whole ethos of the store.

brianna punsalang: Yeah and we don’t do the gender binary here so if you're trying to argue like for both the matriarchy and the patriarchy, like I'm just confused. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: That is, yeah. I feel like your location probably helps to like, make sure that only the people that really are looking for you are the ones that are more likely to find you. But for sure there would be some that just slip through the cracks. [Laugh-snorts.]

brianna punsalang: Yeah. I do hope that we can get into a downstairs location eventually for accessibility.

ash alberg: For accessibility.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, definitely. But right now, this is what suits our budget. And from like a safety standpoint, since I'm usually in the store by myself, it's just better.

ash alberg: Yeah. There's that part of it too. So, you guys launched like basically at the beginning of the pandemic.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, we launched like right before. We launched online and then were doing pop-ups in July 2019, but then we got into the brick and mortar, like very early November 2019.

ash alberg: Oh my god. So you like get through the holiday season and then it's boom.

brianna punsalang: Yeah.

ash alberg: Oh my goodness.

brianna punsalang: Yep.

ash alberg: Kudos on surviving. Like just period surviving pandemi lockdowns.

brianna punsalang: Thank you. We were in only ... we only had a hundred square feet of retail space at the time, and I pretty much had nothing in stock and was getting ready to place holiday, like restock orders after the holidays, when the pandemic ... when all the shutdowns happened.

ash alberg: Oh my god.

brianna punsalang: Thankfully I hadn't ordered too much because I would have overextended myself, but I sunk my entire stimulus check into paying off all of our invoices and then I just hunkered down until we reopened in person in July.

ash alberg: That's brutal. Although ...

brianna punsalang: But thankfully like local community, it is that small town feeling like really helped us because our locals that knew we existed were really good to like rally and make sure we had enough business to stay in business.

ash alberg: Amazing.

brianna punsalang: And huge shout out to Cheryl Rafuse from Plant Magic Gardens out in Salem, Massachusetts ‘cause she, she gave us a signal boost

online. I feel like a lot of her friends did as well, so we did get a lot of online orders coming in from the east coast that helped keep us alive.

ash alberg: Amazing. And how are you finding it now? I was chatting with Marissa about how ... because of course, like pandemic and like support local, support small business overlapped very heavily with a lot of like race reckonings and things happening, and like support BIPOC, support queer.

There was a lot of momentum, theoretically, in 2020 that has since ... like now people are often looking at other ... I was going to say shiny objects, not that it’s a shiny object ...

brianna punsalang: Yeah.

ash alberg: The folks that are like not actually part of community and are like, I want to support whatever, then they like shift their attention and their dollars relatively quickly. It's like the way that people support queer-owned businesses during Pride month and then not the other 11 months of the year.

So how are you finding now that people are, I put in quotations, returning to normal life? Like how has that been?

brianna punsalang: I definitely, I had a little post about this on Instagram that went viral a couple of weeks ago about how the businesses you tokenized in 2020 still needs your support in 2022. And it's true, I do definitely feel like we've been, like, we personally have been left in the dust a little bit. But it was people that didn't align with our values.

So like long-term, we'll be fine and it will probably be better this way, but we did take a big financial hit for quarter four for last year and then we've just had a lot of like personal things happen to us this year that it's been slower or we haven't been in the store. But it's definitely affecting us because I think people, specifically like the white zero waste bloggers in our area, have gone to a more Instagram-worthy store that's just opened up instead of buying the stuff from us.

ash alberg: Oh, fuck.

brianna punsalang: And that's fine because they, sometimes the entitled presence did make other members of the community feel a little uncomfortable shopping in the store with them. So it's okay. Like I think long-term, it'll be fine, but we are trying to do more like events and outreach to make sure that we're finding like the people that the space was intended for know that we exist.

So we'll be doing our Pride debut this year, which is really exciting.

ash alberg: Nice. Yeah. It's tricky ‘cause it is one of those things where yeah, you're right, longer term it absolutely serves you better, but it's like getting from like short-term to long-term. It's that, okay, there's ... once if we can get past it, then it's fine. And we're going to find a more aligned audience and we're going to be serving the people that we actually want to be serving and providing a safe space for folks that in multiple of these communities don't find safe spaces otherwise, but to get to that point and to get them to realize that we exist here, like that is a slog. That ...

brianna punsalang: Yeah. It's hard ‘cause most of us don't go out. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yes, totally. [Laughs.]

brianna punsalang: There's nowhere for us to go so we don't go anywhere. So the fact that there's somewhere that can they go, I just don't think people know.

ash alberg: Hundred percent.

brianna punsalang: There's a local group called Women of Color and Coffee that meets up and one of our close friends, Brandy, is part of the group, and they were saying like, how there wasn't any place that they could go. And she was like, let me tell you about Coyote. So there is a place. [Both laugh.]

And we're not a safe space for white people. It's just that if people come in with a lot of privilege and think that they can center themselves and play devil's advocate on some of these ... our customers and our own lived experiences, like that's not happening. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Absolutely. And I feel like it's interesting, because the zero waste community I find in particular is, it's like an herbalist community as well, where like ...

brianna punsalang: So homogenous. ash alberg: Yeaah.

And there's like very like loud voices that are ... and I am a white person who exists in multiple of these spheres, but I'm also like, okay, as a white person, here's all the things that I am learning. Also here's a bunch of resources for you also.

And don't only listen to me. Like you also, if you want to learn about indigo, don't learn about it from somebody with Northern European roots, like ... or Eastern European roots, learn about it from somebody who like ... indigo grows everywhere. But if I'm going to teach you about indigo, I'm going to be teaching you about woad.

If you want to learn about like Persicaria tinctoria, talk to somebody from Japan. If you want to learn about like the West African strains of indigo, speak to Aboubakar Fofana. Like the ... I am not the person, nor is any other white person the one who can actually speak to the like broader cultural and historical and magical uses of this plant that has been existing with us for thousands of years.

I feel like it is similar in zero waste community where people are like but the things are these like Scandinavian-made. And like yeah, those are really pretty. But also zero waste is literally reusing your like strawberry clamshell to plant your plants.

brianna punsalang: Absolutely. Yeah, and ...
ash alberg: Which is also the stuff that BIPOC zero waste folks are talking

about all the fucking time. Like it's just like what you do.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, definitely. My ... I have, so my mom's side, I'm mainly Irish American and then my dad's side, I'm first-generation Filipino and one of the things I always think about with zero waste, like to explain my background coming into it, was both of my grandmas were depression era grandmas, but my Irish grandma had an entire set of Tupperware, like matching Tupperware.

My Filipino grandma had like, Cool Whip containers and Country Crock containers and like ice cream containers that she used. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly.

brianna punsalang: And it's not as aesthetic for sure. It's not as Instagram-able, but it gets the job done. It's more cost-effective and it's actually better for the environment in the long run.

ash alberg: Totally. And it's funny too because I find that like the depression era, part of it all is actually, it's quite key. Like I definitely am known slash everyone in my family is known for we hoard the bread ties and the container

... like my mom's Tupperware cupboard is like maybe one 10th actual Tupperware.

That is also the Tupperware that she's had since the 80s. But then the rest of it is like cottage cheese and yogurt containers. [Brianna laughs.] And that's what we did too. And that was just like what we did. And so my parents are both white, but they both came from dad's first-generation like Polish Holocaust survivors.

And then mom's side is like single income, like very working class Eastern Canadian. And so it's like working class mentality, which I feel like a lot of folks forget about how we don't actually need to like, be buying things in order to be sustainable. And that like actually most things that you do when you literally don't have any other options, because you don't have the money to go and buy the pretty thing that's going to look good on Instagram, like you still make do. You still make it work.

brianna punsalang: Totally. That was like a lot of why I felt like I started to distance myself from the zero waste movement. And I actually was a zero waste blogger for a little bit. And my partner and I, Michael Gomez and I both had a blog called Love the Little Hearts, but it just didn't, it just wasn't working for me.

It was causing a lot of like mental health issues. I felt like I was being punched down at constantly by more prominent, less melanated bloggers in the same community. It's how I ended up being so close with Marissa, it was like one of the nice experiences I had. [Both laugh.]

Yeah, like Marissa and like my friend Holly Parks were two that were like, hey, nuh uh, when people would be like punching down and I got shadowbanned and reported on Instagram to the point that I still to this day cannot buy ads for Coyote, for the store.

ash alberg: Wooow!
brianna punsalang: I can't buy Instagram ads ‘cause we've been flagged and

... yeah.

ash alberg: That's like a level of flagging that is ... because Instagram is ultimately all there to take your money. So the fact that they're like ...

brianna punsalang: I know. And they don't want my money.

ash alberg: ... we not even going to take your monies. brianna punsalang: No, they don't want my money. ash alberg: Oh, for fucks’ sake.

brianna punsalang: And they actually, I signed out of my personal, like the @briannalittleheart Instagram for a few months just for like mental health reasons while I was focusing on the store during holiday season. I go to sign back in and they yeeted me off the platform. They straight up deleted my account. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: What the fuck? I'm not surprised because Instagram is like very racist and the people on Instagram are very racist, but like also it's one of these things where every time I hear stories like this, I'm like, I'm not surprised and also what the fuck?!

brianna punsalang: It’s just there’s so many trollier political accounts on there. And I, and like my like, little like DIY detergent ...

ash alberg: Yeah.
brianna punsalang: ... was like what got flagged. [Laughs.] [Groans.]

ash alberg: Yeah. It's, yeah, it's fucking wild. There was some ... I was doing something recently cause I'm also like not, I'm checking Instagram semi-regularly, which I shouldn't be, but like in theory, I'm on a social media break for the most part right now, and I recently went to check it from, I think my phone and it's deleted from my phone and has been forever.

So I was like literally typing it into the search bar. And I tried searching my account, which like, it's not a smaller, it's not a huge account, but like I have over 10,000 followers now, so it's the magical 10K whatever. And I literally, I had to type in my whole fucking name and I'm like, I haven't even done anything that's like that overtly ... like I have been much more vocal in a much more not subtle way for ... and not had that issue. So I don't know what the fuck's going on.

But it's also, I don't know the trolling and the like, Nazi sympathizers who are basically just Nazis anyway, like it's impressive. And also like really frustrating when you're like, okay, they're targeting and using what should be tools that are supposed to be protecting folks and they're like taking advantage of them. And

then meanwhile, the folks that should be able to use those tools to protect themselves can’t.

brianna punsalang: Yeah.
ash alberg: It’s, yeah, I don't know. I don't know that there's like a solution to it,

but ...

brianna punsalang: Yeah. I don't think there is. Like social media is just like such a dumpster fire in general.

ash alberg: It really is.
brianna punsalang: Part of the slow growth with our store is that I'm just like,

no. [Ash cackles.] [Laughs.]
ash alberg: You’re like, we're not going to do this actually. I feel like it's ... brianna punsalang: I just don't want ...

ash alberg: But I'd also feel like it's healthier to be in a position where like, you build the business where it doesn't rely on that, because then it gets ... like, I've run into this problem with honestly most of the platforms that I've been on at some point or other.

And there've been some that I've removed myself from because I financially was able to take the hit. And then there's other ones, like right now with Instagram, I'm like the reasons that I left one platform that's the biggest commerce platform in my industry, I left it for the same reasons that I would like to leave Instagram, but I literally cannot afford to leave Instagram and that feels shitty to be in that position.

So I feel like it's better to be building your biz in a way where you don't have to like, basically backtrack it in order to then go sideways.

brianna punsalang: [Chuckles.] This is a point of contention with my partner, my hook, ‘cause he's like, we need to increase social media and I'm like, great. Let's ... like, you do that. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: And you're like, I actually don't want to. I feel like if you're going to use anything, Pinterest is the way to go.

brianna punsalang: Oh my god.

ash alberg: Because it's, you have fewer of the trolls. It's pretty. And also, they do a really good job with their branding. But I remember watching a video that they pulled together for basically business accounts summit at the beginning of the year, and like the work that they're doing on the diversity side, I'm sure a lot of it is lip service, but also they're doing a shit ton more than anybody else that I'm aware of.

brianna punsalang: That's reassuring ‘cause I did leave Pinterest like a couple of years ago. I have a Pinterest, but like I have a fake name and all my boards are private so that none of my family can lurk on me and then buy everything I've been lusting over. So ... [Laughs.] I’m the youngest of four sisters ...

ash alberg: It’s the hardest problem to have. [Joking.] brianna punsalang: ... so it’s just a thing.
ash alberg: Gifts for Bri all the time.
brianna punsalang: [Laughs.] Yeah, hello?

No, it's just, it's infuriating when you're like under-resourced and like someone like lurks on your Pinterest and then shows up in an outfit that you can’t afford.

ash alberg: Oh, that's just rude. Yes. No.

brianna punsalang: Get off of my Pinterest. But I was thinking about getting back on there. But our age space is really young at the store, so Michael’s trying to get us on TikTok ...

ash alberg: Fuck that.
brianna punsalang: ... and I just, oh, I'm not perky. I don't ... ash alberg: Also video content takes so long.

brianna punsalang: Everyone’s like, you should get on Witchtok and yeah. And I don't want to be arguing with teenagers on Witchtok, like ... that’s not my ...

ash alberg: Also that. This is also why I really like Pinterest because people don't talk to you. You just post pretty pictures.

brianna punsalang: Because it's elder millennials also. Yeah.

ash alberg: Yeah, no. And it's also to be fair, my thing with TikTok, I'm like, I don't care how like much traffic I might get. I run a business and so if I'm going to be using social media for business, as opposed to just like me scrolling a thing, I don't need to lose that much time to scrolling on Tiktok, but also like, it's teenagers on TikTok, or like maybe 20 somethings.

And I'm like, they don't have money or if they do, they're not spending it on things. Like they have disposable income in that they don't have like actual bills yet. Give them two years and they will. I want the people who like, honestly are either retired and have a lot of disposable income or have a partner who makes a shit ton of money and they have disposable income as a result of that.

Those are my bread and butter.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, that makes sense for your business. My partner used to work in a yarn warehouse, so that makes sense for your demographic. We're just, I didn't realize when we opened the store how young our clientele was going to be. And I say we're like 75% gen Z ...

ash alberg: Wow!

brianna punsalang: ... shoppers in the store.

ash alberg: That’s fascinating.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. So I do need to be on TikTok, like he's right. I'm just very tired. Thankfully like, the youth find my tiredness amusing.

ash alberg: Yeah. It's true. Also, apparently like under eye bags are a makeup thing that they're doing right now. I'm like, I just have my own.

brianna punsalang: I know, I saw that.
ash alberg: This is just what happens when you’re tired.

brianna punsalang: I don’t have to spend money on concealer. It's great. [Ash snorts.] Yeah, exactly. I'm just not putting concealer on. [Ash laughs.]

They also don't realize how old I am. That's like something that happens often in the store is that I'll be talking and I can see them like trying to like mentally calibrate how old I am based on what I'm saying. [Ash laughs.]

And I'm like, yeah, I'm closer to 40. It’s like yeah, I’m 36 years old.

ash alberg: Yeah. It's like, all of the Filipinos I know have like perfectly smooth skin like into their sixties. So that's, there's that.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. [Laughs.] Yeah, my dad's 76 and he's just starting to look like not middle age, like it's weird.

ash alberg: Oh, I feel like, basically everybody other than white people, like just, which also makes sense ‘cause like skin damage and sun damage, like you get wrinkles the more skin damage you have. The more melanin you have, the less the sun is going to fuck with your skin for a longer period of time.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. I also think so many of us have like really high antioxidant diets.

ash alberg: Yes.
brianna punsalang: So I think that helps as well. ash alberg: Yeah, that definitely makes sense.

brianna punsalang: But yeah, it's really weird ‘cause my Filipino grandparents, like I think one was 90, one was 97 when they passed and like they didn't look their ages at all.

ash alberg: No, it's like they have white hair and that's the only way that you can tell that they're that old.

brianna punsalang: Yeaah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. [Ash chuckles.]

ash alberg: That's too cute. I feel like I need to have a side conversation with you off the podcast ‘cause otherwise we’ll be on here forever, but the number of ... so I found these like really incredible bookstores in the Philippines that have

just all of these really cool plant books about like medicinal plants in the Philippines.

It's very fun. Okay. So I guess we should in theory get back on track. [Both laugh.] So what’s your, what's your personal relationship with ritual and magic?

brianna punsalang: So I’m one of the few, like people you hear about ... we do exist. I was actually raised pagan by my mom in a very covert way. And my dad's family is Catholic, so it was like very covert, but it was definitely a thing.

ash alberg: I feel like also the Irish side could also like, the Catholic on both sides just hides all of the like, very heavily pagan influences and practices.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, I think so. It's been hard for me. Like nobody on my mom's side knows like what religion we were or are. Like, anytime I ask, I get like a vague ...

ash alberg: Ok, so not sure if it’s pro-Catholic or something else?

brianna punsalang: Yeah, like Jesus is cool. Like, I’m not getting much of a reply. I don't know, if anyone ends up listening to this and they want to call me, fine. [Ash cackles.]

But from what I can tell, I never got an answer growing up, but my dad's side is Roman Catholic. And then my mom's like a total hippie. And I think through some of her like unsettling practice before unsettling was a thing, she realized like her Celtic roots and decided to be pagan. So that's how she raised us.

And that's like the basis of my practice. I did make the conscious decision when I was like nine-ish to start like researching stuff more ‘cause I would have questions and I have older sisters, so they would just hand me one of their books. I got my first taro deck at 12 and then as I got ...

ash alberg: Amazing.
brianna punsalang: Right? Yeah, I'm really fortunate.

And then as I got older and started doing my own de-colonization work, I started learning more about my dad's side of the family and learning that there's actually like a really strong like traditional magical practice in the Philippines, especially with us being Kapampangan Ilocano.

ash alberg: Okay. Yeah. I was going to say, ‘cause the different Indigenous communities in the Philippines are like, there's very different practices depending on like where in the islands somebody was.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, definitely. It's funny, when I started learning about it, it's really like my cure all is my grandma's like sweet and sour sauce. It's like a gelatinous, like fire cider situation. And it's so good. And it's so sour and it has so much garlic in it, but I found out that just reciting the ingredients out loud, it's supposed to be like an anecdote to hexing.

ash alberg: Oh my god. This is so cool! [Both laugh.]

brianna punsalang: I'm like, oh, this makes sense. Anytime anything was going wrong, Grandma's just, “Have some more sweet and sour sauce.” So it makes sense now.

ash alberg: That’s too funny. Okay, so like with your, especially like with your grandparents, but I guess also for your dad, where he's Roman Catholic, like how was that for that side of the family if your mom was like very like intentionally raising you kids as not Roman Catholic? Like how did all of that ... because it also sounds it sounds very much like my Nan, who like, my Nan was not superstitious, but also if she met you on the stairwell, she would turn back around and walk back up the stair.

There were just all of these things where it's okay, Nan, those are like magical practices that you just don't want to say are magic or superstition or whatever.

brianna punsalang: Definitely. I feel like my ... I feel like my Filipino grandparents were definitely more superstitious and more set in like traditional, like folk ways of doing things.

ash alberg: Okay. Yeah.

brianna punsalang: But my dad's generation just ‘cause my Papa, when they got here from the Philippines, is don't, like no Tagalog in the house. Like none of them speak to Tagalog. None of them Kapampangan or Ilocano. It's just all English all the time.

ash alberg: Yeah.

brianna punsalang: So I do feel like they were pressured more to assimilate and because of that, they tend to just be more like Catholic.

ash alberg: Yes.

brianna punsalang: I don't see as much of a superstition or like ritual with them. Even though like Catholic mass is super spooky, like with all the incense and the singing.

ash alberg: Absolutely! [Brianna chuckles.] Like the amount of ... it's so interesting ‘cause like Catholicism to me, I'm like Catholicism is so fucking witchy, but then like also not being Catholic and attending Catholic rituals, especially like funerals, I just find ... I am so angry at a Catholic funeral one time that I was like, I had obsidian and rose quartz in my pockets like making my hands into fists around them, like trying not to throw things. I was so mad. [Brianna giggles.]

But I'm like then also having witch brain on being like, okay, look at this ritual, see how it goes. You just don't appreciate it because it's not your ritual but look at this ritual. Yeah.

brianna punsalang: I think this background though, is part of what's made our store so special though, is because we have given people who come from an organized religious background, but are still witches, like we've given them room to shop without feeling weird about it.

We have a lot of ex-Mormon witches, we have a lot of Catholic witches, we have a lot of Jewish witches. It's a really diverse, and we don't shame anybody about whatever they still are practicing or whatever they practiced in the past.

Like we're very much like, you do you as audition. You're not being a dick.

ash alberg: Yeah. Golden rule. [Both laugh.]

brianna punsalang: Yeah. Don’t be a dick. The only rule.

ash alberg: And then your partner co-owns with you, so what's his practice? Or like, how does that ...

brianna punsalang: So he's ... yeah. So I actually was really, we met at work. We were both working at World Market and I was technically his boss which is why I left the company, so I could date him. [Ash laughs.]

But I totally was like grilling him. He thought I was just like making like casual chitchat, but I was very much like interviewing him as boyfriend material. And I

was like, yeah, so what's your background? And what's your religious background? And as a joke, he said he was a Satanist so I already was like, okay, this guy, isn't part of organized religion. Great. [Ash laughs.]

And then he's actually Jaliscan on his dad's side and then mainly German and a little Native on his mom's side. So he definitely comes to the table with a whole different set of skills and like intuitive magical practices than I do, because he's much more rooted in this continent than I am. I have like, no business being here.

ash alberg: [Laughs.] Most of us don't, to be fair.

brianna punsalang: [Chuckles.] Yeah, exactly. But yeah, it's really, it's a really nice being with him cause he has this very just grounded background and like he's a Taurus, so that's more grounding energy and he's very practical.

His big thing is he definitely seems ... it's like the animist or like shamanist background where he feels like everything has energy and everything has like a soul and a purpose, so he's very mindful, which I like.

ash alberg: I feel like that also ...
brianna punsalang: He brings a very calming presence.

ash alberg: Yeah. That also feels like it suits Nevada really well. Like when I, I dunno, there's something about that landscape that feels like very rooted if you are, if you're like, tuned into it.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. But he does have some of that. I guess he was saying has his great grandma was actually from Mexico and Catholic. So was like, we have a Santa Muerte in our office and he changes her water every day and makes sure her shelf is like dust-free and make sure she gets a sip of water. So yeah.

ash alberg: That's so sweet. Also, like way more ... my altars are just like perpetually dusty. Give them a little dusting like maybe every month, maybe. Usually it's there's like too many ghosts in the house and I'm like, okay, everybody move along

brianna punsalang: Everybody get out. Yeah. That's how our house is, but at the store we dust altars every Sunday.

ash alberg: Smart. It makes sense.
brianna punsalang: Sunday is for dusting altars, watering plants.

ash alberg: I love that. That's so great. So your shop is like very obviously witch-infused then. But how, like, how did you make the decision to combine zero waste and witchcraft together in the store? How does magic and witchcraft happen with you guys work-wise and are there certain things that you do that are like very specifically like business magic? Or do you find that just like your usual practices just infuse themselves into then the work that you're doing?

brianna punsalang: We started out doing zero waste in like 2016 and ‘cause I was already a practicing witch, it just was like a natural thing, but I just started buying my ritual supplies also zero waste, which I'd already been doing to begin with because I've been practicing for so long, like I started actively practicing at nine.

So I had most of the stuff I needed and anytime I was topping off on supplies, it was like maybe some candles, some herbs, some incense, which is pretty easy to find low waste. Not necessarily ethical ingredients, but like pretty easy to find unpackaged.

ash alberg: Yeah, totally. [Chuckles.]

brianna punsalang: And I was having a really hard time with that and I was like, there's gotta be an easier way to do this. So when we were thinking about opening a store, it just, we wanted it to fit our own like ethics and not feel ... like I have a corporate retail background so I didn't want to feel like I was back in that world. So when we opened the store, we were just really specific about what we carried and how we marketed ourselves.

So that came about naturally and it makes sense because I think most people in the United States are coming to witchcraft from like a Wiccan background, just because that's when you're a teenager and you start rebelling against organized religion, those are the books you find at Barnes and Noble.

ash alberg: [Laugh-snorts.] It's true. Yeah.

brianna punsalang: So like the whole harm none, if you're really taking harm none seriously, it should apply to the environment as well and it should apply to the people that are making your tools. So that was how we ended up with the

store, but I've used the store since we created it as a safe space for the queer BIPOC community to shop sustainably, it's a container spell.

So all the different makers and all the customers and the intentions that we set every day, when we open with our like, lighting our candle, lighting our incense, clearing the energy in the store, grounding and clearing our own energy, charging the store up. It's very much a container spell.

ash alberg: That's lovely.
brianna punsalang: Which has been cool to see people recognize. Yeah. Thank you.

ash alberg: Oh, that sounds so nice. Do you find ... are there ... The fact that I appreciate shops like yours because it just makes shopping exponentially easier, where it's, you can actually just trust that the objects that you're buying or the products that you're buying are going to just feel good, especially when you're doing fucking magic.

Like you don't want like, shitty energy attached. It's ... I dunno, I feel like it overlaps also with the jewelry world where I'm like, people are like, they buy like engagement rings, and I'm like, but that energy on that stone feels like shit in the same way that like that amethyst that you just grabbed also feels like shit. Now you're going to do magic with it. Like it's ...

So do you like in, in providing for a diverse audience who have diverse ways of practicing and therefore tools that they are also practicing with, are there times where somebody comes in and wants to buy a product and you either know based on the practice or feel intuitively like, this is not an appropriate tool for you? And how do you navigate all of that?

brianna punsalang: We ... for the most part, anything that we feel really adamant that people shouldn't be using like white sage or there's so many crystal stores in Reno that we didn't want to get into crystals ‘cause it's harder for me. I don't have the connections in that industry to try to trace the sourcing as well as other people could.

ash alberg: Right, yes.

brianna punsalang: So I just chose not ... we're one of the few witch stores that will not carry crystals. So I feel like we, we just stopped that from even

being a conversation in the store ‘cause I just don't have white sage. I just don't have crystals. I don't have parafin for the most part. Some candle dyes do have have a bit of paraffin in them but we stick to mainly like soy wax in our store.

I do occasionally, like I do have a lot of conversations, probably at least like once a week with a customer that comes in and is saying something like, hey, like I've been using white sage. I understand as a white person, I shouldn't be. What should I use instead?

And then we present to them what alternatives we carry and if they want to have a discussion about like why or why not and all of that, we definitely do hold the space to do that, but we also try to make sure that we have alternatives. So if we do have ... we have one line of candles that, technically it's like a brujaria line, but they have an ancestral candle so I'll make sure that when we have that candle in stock, I also have a grief and ancestral candle from a local maker is more like, it's not centered in one specific culture. It's a more of a universal thing.

That way people don't feel like they're being gatekept. They don't feel like they're being left out, but they also are being encouraged to appropriate other cultures.

ash alberg: Yeah. I feel like it gets so tricky and I'm sure that you experience it like even more, but like when you’re especially of mixed backgrounds, which when I think of, most of my friends honestly are mixed and they're quite frequently white passing, so like I know from conversations with them that there are times where they're like not white enough, but then very frequently they are in spaces where they're being like gatekept from things that are like actually like blood related to them or like blood magic related.

And they're being told like, no, these aren't your tools. And they're like, no, they're literally my tools. So I can't imagine ... and I feel like that's, like it, we, it's like a tool of white supremacy and a tool of the kyriarchy where it's we end up ... and it happens in the queer community all the fucking time where people are like, you're not queer enough or you don't look queer, so we're not going to let you in.

And it's who the fuck are you to tell somebody how queer they are or not? And like where they are on their journey in gender? Like ...

brianna punsalang: Absolutely. And we do a lot to try to make sure that we're not identifying people and that they're like, self-identifying. So I, we tend to do

like an ask situation, so instead of me telling people what they should be buying, I ask people what they're looking for. I even just give them like a, hey, I'm here if you need me. [Chuckles.] I'm not going to lurk ...

ash alberg: [Chuckles.] Yes.

brianna punsalang: ... introduction. ‘Cause we're not pushy salespeople. And I'm, I've had so many bad experiences in Reno when we first got here where I would be looking for Celtic stuff and people would be like, no, don't use that.

ash alberg: Oh my god.
brianna punsalang: I’m like, I'm actually half Irish. Like, what? [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Like this is literally more mine than yours right now, random person.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. Or I'd get told, I kept getting offered, like this one place every time I went in wanted to tell me about their Tarot for Teens meet up. And finally I was like, I'm going to be 30 on my birthday. [Both laugh.] Like I just couldn't handle it. [Ash snorts.]

So we do try to like, not talk down ... we definitely don't talk down to people. We definitely don't identify people because I never know if someone's buying a brujaria candle and they don't like, maybe look a certain way, like I never know what their background is. Some people think my partner's white and he's not. So I just ... also, I don't know who they're living with or maybe the candle’s a gift.

ash alberg: Yes, totally.
brianna punsalang: Or maybe they are white and they're the only person in

their house, but their friend who's like Mexican passed away. ash alberg: Yeah. That’s the thing too, right?
brianna punsalang: Using it on that like, altar. So I never know.

ash alberg: Yeah. I think of that, I, for me, juniper and rosemary are really easy things to be burning. And rosemary is a good one when it's like nice ghosts that are kicking around, but when it's not nice to ghosts kicking around, I have ... there was one point years ago where I bought a stick of palo santo because I was

talking to a mixed witch who was like, I was like, we've got these like very active ghosts, like need to be settled down.

And she was like, don't burn anything other than palo santo because everything else is going to wake them up. And so ... and like the one stick lasts forever and if it's being ethically harvested, like they got theirs from an Indigenous-led organization that was dealing with deadfall.

And so, it's okay, there's ways of finding ethical sources, but even within that, it's what do you do? What's the ...

brianna punsalang: Yeah.

ash alberg: And what are you dealing with? And what are the ghosts? Especially with witchcraft. It's okay, what ghosts are you dealing with? Like me burning one thing might piss off one ghost, whereas burning something else might soothe them. But what's the purpose?

brianna punsalang: Totally.
ash alberg: And then also I feel like capitalism plays a massive role in it where

it's, are you trying to benefit in some way? Or ...
brianna punsalang: Yeah.
ash alberg: ... gain in some way off of whatever you're doing.

brianna punsalang: This is like the whole white sage thing for us because BLM will like sell off permits to be able to harvest it, but then the people that can access the harvesting permits are usually more affluent and not actual like Native nations.

ash alberg: Right, yes.
brianna punsalang: So then it's not available to people who like ancestrally

should be allowed access to it.

But then also, something that's always bothered me about white sage is it's supposed to be burned with something else, usually sweet grass, and I feel like most like new age witchy people don't know that. So it's like taking a probiotic

and then not taking ... it's like taking an antibiotic and not taking like a prebiotic and probiotic afterwards.

So they're just kicking all the energy out of their space, and it's like a very sterile void feeling.

ash alberg: Yeaahh, exactly. It's very, I think that's part of it, right? Where it's, if you don't understand what all of the pieces around it are, then that makes the use of it so like potentially like very damaging, but if nothing else just, you're missing important parts.

It's like with my natural dying, I'm like, yes sometimes they're just looking for a pretty color, but if you understand what all of the other characteristics are of this plant and why it's been used and historically why it was used in who uses it, and all of these things, it adds so many additional layers of understanding that value-wise in a non-capitalist way, are ... they just make it so much more special. But also like sometimes it's straight up safety shit where it's, tansy gives me beautiful yellows, but if you don't know that it's used for abortions and you're going to just like casually have it like hanging out in your dye pots with the fumes out, like that's not always safe.

brianna punsalang: Yeaah. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I see that so much with these practices that have been appropriated. People just don't ... they don't know what they’re doing, quite frankly.

ash alberg: Mhmm. And it’s not individual's fault necessarily, but it’s also ... brianna punsalang: No. Yeah.

ash alberg: ... okay, we need to have more resources and stop gatekeeping the resources.

And it's interesting within magical communities, because there are a number of practices, especially living traditions where like they are gatekept for really specific reasons, but then it ends up causing different kinds of problems when folks don't ... like, if you're not literally born in community and by that, like physically born and living in, within a community that is able to then teach these practices to you.

Like people are so scattered nowadays that they just, to know okay, this is my practice and this is how I safely engage in this practice. Like it's become, I think probably a lot trickier than it was even like 200 years ago.

brianna punsalang: Absolutely, ‘cause of everyone migrating and diasporas. It's hard to be like a displaced person, especially like I have a lot of customers that have been adopted and there's no way for them to know what their magical roots are, if any. Which I do strongly believe that everyone has magical roots because before organized religion, what were people doing?

So zero waste was the norm. I feel like magic was the norm also. Yeah.

ash alberg: Exactly. Exactly.

brianna punsalang: But this is why, this is why we've gone out of our way to make sure we have a lot of universal stuff. That's why we have so much more personal care and body care stuff than I ever anticipated having. It's ‘cause it's like nice universal stuff.

Like anybody can wear like a lavender body oil and feel like it's bringing them like calm and keeping yuck energy from other people off of them. So it's more approachable and more accessible, but it's also why we get asked constantly since we have a hard time with visibility, like why do you have such a vague name?

Like, why are you Coyote Supply Co and not Coyote Witch Supply Co or Zero Waste Witch Store? But we did that so that people that are still like in the broom closet can buy things and not have it come up on their debit card statement as like an obvious thing, or we can ship it to your house and not have it come up as an obvious thing.

ash alberg: Yeah, totally. I think that's a thing that people really don't take into consideration is like, how dangerous it can be depending on what your living situation is. And as queer folks, we like know this extra and BIPOC folks obviously can know it extra depending on what their living situation is and what community they're living in.

But it can be really dangerous to come out as a witch.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, absolutely.

ash alberg: Like I've actually found people have a bigger issue with me being a witch than they do with me being like, non-binary. And probably a lot of that is the fact that I'm like a queer femme who passes as cis so it's, I'm like an easier queer body to be comfortable around, but I'm still like ...

brianna punsalang: Yeah.
ash alberg: ... not cis-het, and yet the thing that makes people really

uncomfortable is the witch part.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, definitely. And I experienced that when we first launched. We were selling at a farmer's market locally, and I had people that like, would stand right outside of our booth and be like, oh, witch, like this person's delusional or oh, they're crazy.

ash alberg: Oh my god.
brianna punsalang: Or oh, Satanists. That’s not what's happening at all but

thank you.
ash alberg: What the fuck? [Both laugh.]

brianna punsalang: Which is why we started carrying a Not Today Satan pin in the store.

ash alberg: I love that pin.

brianna punsalang: Which ironically is the bestseller with Catholic witches. [Ash cackles.] It's been like a whole thing. And there's other witches at the farmer's market. I'm not going to out anybody, but there's other witches there. And because they're not like explicitly stating that's what they're doing, they do great at the farmer's market.

Like even the tarot readers do great at the farmer's market, but like ...

ash alberg: Yeah, ‘cause it's like a novelty thing as opposed to like actual, like magic.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. So it's, that’s definitely something that I've experienced as well. I did get bullied pretty heavily in high school for being a witch, but I don't know. It's made me who I am today, and it's made me understand parts of the community and the community that we serve in ways that other stores like, especially in the area, I just don't think do.

ash alberg: Yeah, definitely.

brianna punsalang: So it's what's kept us afloat for two and a half years.

ash alberg: Through a whole pandemi. Oh my goodness.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. Yeah.

ash alberg: That’s just wild. I'm like impressed with every brick and mortar that has managed to make it through the series of lockdowns.

brianna punsalang: It's, it's been wild. Yeah. Cause y'all had a series of 'em. We just had the one.

ash alberg: Yeah. We were like ... and yeah, where I live our government is garbage, but there, yeah. It was like an ongoing off and on and realistically we should have had like more and also they should have been like, shorter and more intense that we actually could have gotten ahead of the numbers, which never happened.

So they would do these like half-assed ones that actually just fucked over the businesses even more because they would put capacities in where it's okay, you're now not getting any of the government benefits, which like we do a little bit better than in the States, but like now we're gonna let you open up and so we're going to remove all of those supports, but you're not actually going to have enough people coming through the doors or in any sort of serious way where you're going to be able to pay your bills but we want the stores to be open. You're like, no you don't, that's a lie.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. I think if we had more like a stricter one in the beginning, we would be in a very different situation. But ...

ash alberg: Yeah.

brianna punsalang: ... especially here in Nevada with it being very wild west, it was definitely like the, nobody tells me what to do. [Say something indecipherable.]

ash alberg: Yeah. That's ... I like, this is a thing about the States that just like scares the shit out of me. Canada is also a fucking mess, let's be clear. We have plenty of our own racist, like right-wing, crazy assholes. It's just that they don't have as many guns. [Wheeze-laughs.]

brianna punsalang: Yeah. Yeah. This is a right to carry state. Yeah.

ash alberg: Yeah. Ugh. It's just not a thing.

brianna punsalang: Yeah.

ash alberg: The idea of like road rage incidents turning into like a gunfight, I'm like, what the fuck? This should not be normal. It should not be like a thing that I think about as being a possibility.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, this is why like, the mask mandate has been lifted where we live. And honestly, there wasn't much compliance to begin with from what I was seeing, especially at the grocery stores, which was horrifying.

ash alberg: Oh my god.

brianna punsalang: But yeah, like it just ... so many people with their faces out. Wearing like ... it was terrifying for me cause I have, we take care of my dad and we live with him and he's 76 and has like pre-existing health conditions, so that was really nerve-wracking for us.

But since the mask mandate was lifted and especially being like an Asian person, it just hasn't really felt safe for me personally to keep having mine on. I do keep one at the desk in our store so that if someone comes in with a mask on, or if a customer comes in that is a regular that I know is immunocompromised, I'll put mine on.

But this year I haven't really been wearing mine too much at the store, especially since I've been by myself so much. It's easier when I have Michael there, but ...

[Both talking at the same time.]

ash alberg: Right, yes. But that's fucking wild that you're like okay, safety-wise, it's actually safer for me during a global pandemic to not wear a mask.

brianna punsalang: ... to not have a mask on.

ash alberg: ... because of the threat of violence. Yeah, is so high, especially as an Asian person that like, that's just, again, not surprised and also what the fuck?

brianna punsalang: It's been really strange you cause the post office that we go to is primarily also like Filipino staffed and the people who have had really visceral reactions to me being Asian and being out in public since the pandemic have all been out the post office.

ash alberg: What the fuck?

brianna punsalang: So I'm just like, what are you going to do when you get up to the counter and are being helped by someone looks like me? I don't understand that logic.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. Also is there like a weird pocket of Filipinos that live in Reno for some reason? That like, when I think of ... I, like Winnipeg has a huge number and then like Vancouver and California, like everybody I know, their family who's not still in the Philippines and or here is either Vancouver or California.

brianna punsalang: I ... there is. I haven't had as much access to it because I'm vegan and I don't speak any of the languages.

ash alberg: Oh. [Laughs.]
brianna punsalang: So yeah. So automatically like, what do we do with you? ash alberg: [Laughs.] They’re like, we don't know how to feed you, go away.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, exactly. I have, I have a few Filipino friends, which is great, but yeah, there is a pretty decently sized pocket here and I think it’s primarily because of the hospitality industry, the same reason you find a lot in Vegas. But then also I think it's because of the military bases in the area.

ash alberg: Oh, interesting.

brianna punsalang: So yeah, with them being like part of like colonialism it's easier I think, to come to the U.S. from the Philippines than maybe some other places.

ash alberg: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, I forget ... brianna punsalang: At least with my family's experience.

ash alberg: Yeah. I always forget. I don't know why I forget, but like I forget about the part where this U.S. like went and colonized the Philippines after like multiple like, after the Chinese, after the Spanish, they were like, let’s go too! Everybody else is going.

brianna punsalang: Yeeah. In the Spanish American war, the Philippines ended up being a U.S. territory. Yeah. My, my family actually came here after World War II. My grandfather survived the Bataan Death March.

ash alberg: Wow.

brianna punsalang: And my grandma just had really bad PTSD and the town was pretty much leveled. So he got ... the Philippine Scouts were adopted into or absorbed into the U.S. army so he brought the whole family over here. And then they were going back and forth after the kids were older but the [indecipherable] regime seized most of our stuff, which is why the most recent election’s also horrifying for us.

But they ended up having like a compound in the south, in Cebu, which is like, we're actually from the north, but it was just safer to be in the south for awhile. But after my grandparents passed, we, I don't think any of my immediate family plans on going over. I'm not sure I'm allowed to go over to be completely honest. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: What the fuck?
brianna punsalang: I might be on the list for being critical of the government

over there.
ash alberg: Oh my god, that is ...
brianna punsalang: ... and then they were doing that ... ash alberg: terrifying. Oh my god.

brianna punsalang: It’s kind of like back in the day, if you were like donating to like the IRA, you're on like a watch list. I feel like if you're part of the Philippine diaspora and you're donating to the [Lomog Schools], you're like seen as being like, a communist. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: This is ...

brianna punsalang: And you’re put on a watch list.
ash alberg: ... wild to me. Wooow.
brianna punsalang: Yeah, I know, in 2022. Yeah. It's still happening.

ash alberg: I'm also like it's ... okay. So like side funny note, but like also what the fuck is the world? I was randomly looking semi-recently, because I decided to have a nice little spiral about like my potential to parent as like an older millennial. And I was like, okay, logistically, like how long am I looking at if I want to adopt a kid?

brianna punsalang: Oh my god. Yeah. I do this weekly.

ash alberg: And so first I was like, like trying to do that within Canada is ... apparently adopting an American child counts as international, which like makes sense logistically, but also is funny to me. But then I was like, okay, what if I adopt a Polish kid? You can't adopt kids out of Poland under the age of nine.

Then I was like, okay, what about the Philippines? I know lots of Filipino kids. And so that ... they're very easy to adopt, but also like the ... which is fucking weird anyway, but like the, one of the reasons that this one agency was like, the reason that there are so many children available and so many young children available is because abortion is illegal in the Philippines and like making it very clear that this is the thing.

And then I'm thinking, okay, what about in the States right now? It might actually be really easy to adopt a kid in the States and the next year or two. Like what the fuck?

brianna punsalang: Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's horrifying to think of, but yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense to me with the Philippines ‘cause it's, it's a very Catholic country

ash alberg: Yes. And then it's, there's multiple other countries that like now won't allow you to adopt because it looks bad politically. And I'm like, okay, that's a weird way ... and not actually helping the kids. Like for me, I'm like, okay, as a white person, if I'm looking to adopt, there's like a whole whack of things, which is part of why I was looking at, what about adopting a kid out of Poland, ‘cause I’m actually Polish.

And then the person I'm seeing is Filipino. So I'm like, okay, this is whatever. But if like at the time that I'm looking to adopt, I'm not with somebody who is of the same cultural background as a kid that I'm looking to adopt, I wouldn't bring that kid in, but I also am like, okay, what about these kids that are actually like in really horrific circumstances and not being able to adopt them out of those circumstances into stable homes. There's so many layers to adoption that is just I feel like it wasn’t ...

brianna punsalang: There is.

ash alberg: It didn't use to be thought about, and then it did become a thing that people think about but like now we're almost like ... I don't know. I don't think that there's like a perfect solution to anything ever really, but yeah. It's wild.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, I always wonder, like in areas where there, there isn’t access to abortion, are they then increasing public health? Are they increasing like other programs? Are they increasing ... are they making it easier to access food? Are they making it easier to access childcare? What are they doing to offset that?

ash alberg: And inevitably, they're not. brianna punsalang: Usually they're not.

ash alberg: Exactly. It's not like they actually give a shit about the kids once they are like in the world. It's just, they want to control people's bodies.

brianna punsalang: Absolutely. Yeah. My ...
ash alberg: It has nothing to do with actual quality of life.

brianna punsalang: My partner survived the foster care system here in the U.S. ...

ash alberg: Okay. Yeah.
brianna punsalang: ... And it's this pretty atrocious. It definitely feels like it

... it definitely feels like human trafficking ... ash alberg: Yeah.

brianna punsalang: ... to me personally. And we see a lot of this with the ICE camps that we have here in the U.S.

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah, those ... yeah.
brianna punsalang: Yeah. It's wild. It's, maybe just make a more accessible for

everyone for everything.
ash alberg: Exactly, yeah, like ...
brianna punsalang: Oh, but that's communism or socialism, right?

ash alberg: This is the thing, right? Like borders shouldn't exist. Although there are times where borders can be very like, no offense, but I was really glad that we had a border during the pandemi and Trump and continuing ...

brianna punsalang: Yeah.
ash alberg: I was like all adopted my Amurricans, but then the rest of y'all can

just stay down there. [Brianna laughs.]

But then it's also one of those things where it's like when, like part of I'm like, okay, what are the options for international adoption is because, is because if you want a healthy kid because I also know my capacity. Like I don't have the capacity to raise a kid with FASD, which is the majority of the kids that end up in care here.

And I've got family members who have kids in care and have FASD. I know that I'm not somebody who's going to be able to provide those kids with a good home. There are other people who have that capacity and they're magical creatures. I am not one of them.

And so, if you want a healthy kid, like under the age of 10, then you're looking at minimum eight years and it's ... and within those eight years, it's literally, my friend is currently going through the process, which was part of what caused my spiral was like hearing her tell me the stories and it's like, the years that it takes, and she's not even looking for a small kid, she's, “I would take a teenager.” And it's still looking like at least a five-year process.

brianna punsalang: That’s wild.

ash alberg: And within that timeframe, you can't change your marital status. And so if within those however many years, which also like to be fair are often the years where we're like finding new partners potentially, or like settling into a thing.

And so if you start your paperwork and you are legally single or legally married or whatever, and then within the timeframe it takes you to then over those many years to get approved and get a kid, if anything changes within that timeframe, you have to start again. If you were to start paperwork, be like I don't know if I'm going to have a partner and so I'm going to start this paperwork and adopt a kid and then three years later you've got a partner and they're like onboard, you would have to start that paperwork again.

Or if you were with a partner and you were like, let's have a kid, we're going to do the adoption route, and then, midway through that’s super fucking stressful, it causes you guys to break up, you have to start over again.

Like it's ... the system is just so, doesn't serve anybody. It doesn't serve parents. Doesn't serve kids. Doesn't serve the parents who have to give up their kids. Like, the whole thing is a mess.

brianna punsalang: That's wild.
ash alberg: Yeah. Sorry. That was like a massive tangent that had nothing to do

with zero waste or witchcraft.

brianna punsalang: No. I think this is ... no, I think this is definitely relevant to the queer community though, especially, and I think so many like BIPOC people end up like in foster situations, unfortunately ...

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah.

brianna punsalang: ... in the U.S. but then also so many queer couples feel gatekept from being able to adopt. I think this is a relevant conversation for sure.

ash alberg: And I feel like it's also one of these things where I think as ... even if you're in like a straight passing relationship and so you hide from the agency that you're like actually a queer couple, especially if somebody's ... I'm thinking of myself, if I'm a witch and I'm like, I'm a queer witch ...

brianna punsalang: Oh yeah.

ash alberg: ... who’s got like a public persona online as a queer witch, and then you're like going to one of these countries that is, the reason that they have all of these extra kids in the system is because they are like so fucking religious that they don't allow people to get abortions, and then you're like, hi, I would like a kid. There's just, there's so much of it that ... religion just fucks everything up.

brianna punsalang: [Laughs.] Probably not going to go over well. [Ash laughs.]

Yeah, it really has. It sucks ‘cause I know so many like super religious, like witches that we have at the store now that have like really opened my eyes to that you can take the good parts and leave behind the other stuff.

ash alberg: Right? Like it doesn't have to be a shitty as it is. [Laughs.] brianna punsalang: Yeah. And it probably, I don't think it was supposed to be,

I don’t think it was supposed to be shitty or oppressive ...

ash alberg: Exactly.

brianna punsalang: ... has been like the eye-opening thing. One of our friends and like regulars is like a Catholic witch and she's just funny ‘cause she can like off the top of her head, she could be like, no, actually it says in this part of the Bible, that's not how that works.

ash alberg: Wow.
brianna punsalang: I know. It's great. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: That is like a whole other level of ... also just I'm always really impressed with the memorization skills involved in that. [Laughs.]

brianna punsalang: Yeah. Like theology major and then also just like with Hoodoo specifically, they use so much of the Bible in their practice. So it makes sense to have this like encyclopedic knowledge of the Bible. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: That's so cool though. Just be able to ... you're basically Google in real life. [Laughs.]

brianna punsalang: Yeah, it's great. So anytime somebody like bothers me or like anyone in like extended family makes a comment, I can be like, hey. [Both laugh.] Yeah, I don't, I love my aunties. I don't anticipate any of them shopping.

ash alberg: How have you found that like, the like witchcraft and ... are there things from either of those spheres that you're like, we're just never going to do? Obviously like crystals and white sage, you were saying, but are there things from either of those spheres where you're like, this just feels like we'll never bring it into the shop, no matter how much we may expand in the future or like what we choose to do?

brianna punsalang: Yeah, like we don't have ... we don't have just like the traditional stainless steel straws. I do hope that at some point in the future, we can get like some silicone ones in for like disabled members of the community that do need straws and are being negatively impacted by straw bans.

We have specialty ones, like we have boba because we're right across from a bubble tea place.

ash alberg: I saw those and I was like, oh my god. I love bubble tea. I'm very white about my bubble tea preferences. Like it's like mango with boba. That's what I like. [Laugh-snorts.]

brianna punsalang: I love that. It's like a universal drink, which I think is like important that it gives people like a icebreaker almost.

ash alberg: [Chuckles.] Yeah, exactly.

brianna punsalang: So I really love that about boba. It's like, the boba spot by us is Filipino-owned too [indecipherable.] This is hilarious. So it's like nice to be able to see like familiar faces.

The salon next to us is always laughing. They're like, there they go, like scurry across the street to get my boba. [Ash laugh-snorts.] But like, we don't demonize plastic in our store and that's something we don't intend on doing, because I don't think plastic’s the problem. I think that human entitlement is the problem. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Exactly. Yes. Yes.

brianna punsalang: So I don't bother people if they come in with a plastic cup or I forget my straw sometimes and then have that ... do I steal one from the

store? [Ash laugh-snorts.] Do I just take the plastic one? What do I do? So just, people are busy. People have all different circumstances and like barriers to accessibility so we've really don't demonize plastic or give anyone a hard time in the store. I know that's a common practice in zero waste stores where they like require all of their makers to be 100% plastic free.

ash alberg: Which I'm also like ... brianna punsalang: It’s not realistic.

ash alberg: No, it's not. And like also as a maker who like my, none of my products are plastic because they don't need to be, but like the amount of fucking plastic packaging I end up with from my suppliers ‘cause I'm like making things from other people's shit. Like, I'm not farming all these things in myself.

brianna punsalang: You’re not? [Joking.] [Laughs.]
ash alberg: And then also, yeah. I get that question every once in a while. I'm

like you realize I live in the middle of a city and I have no ... [Laughs.]

brianna punsalang: We get it too. People come in, yhey're like, do you make everything here? And I'm like, yes, I have 65 different business licenses. You're adorable but no.

ash alberg: Oh my god. It’s, yeah. And so I'm like, I'm not gonna, like I will, when I'm packaging people's orders up, then I'm like, okay, my regular customers will get the paper fill and then the air bubbles that are coming from my various packages ‘cause those look pretty.

But then the fucking peanuts that I get from random places that I'm like, I don't know what else I'm going to do with these. Those go into my wholesale ones. I'm like, you deal with the peanuts next, off they go to their next.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. Yeah, thankfully, we have a really strong artist community in Reno, so my bubble mailers go to Ziggy Stardust, which is like a local queer maker owned by Ray Frost, who also happens to do our screen printing for us. So whenever Ray cruises in, I hand them a stack of bubble mailers that they reuse for their orders.

And then Amy and Vanessa from A Glass Fantasy that are like stained glass artists and Reno take all of our bubble wrap.

ash alberg: Oh my god.
brianna punsalang: But I've heard of zero waste stores like refusing shipments

if it has plastic in it.

ash alberg: What the fuck?

brianna punsalang: And especially with us having primarily marginalized makers, like I'm not going to tell someone who's just struggling to keep the doors open on their business that they have to pay to reship my stuff to me ‘cause there's bubble wrap in it. Like, that’s just silly.

ash alberg: Exactly. Also, hello, carbon footprint of shipping. Like what the fuck? That's just wild.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, I know right? But we also didn't require anyone to buy in when we open because I know that's another common practice with larger zero waste stores is that they'll have buy-ins and we don't do that either.

ash alberg: Wait, how ... I'm, now I'm confused because I'm like, if you're the wholesale partner ...

brianna punsalang: Yeah, no.

ash alberg: ... you should be paying them for their stock.

brianna punsalang: So, the largest zero waste store in the U.S. like brags about that they got started ‘cause they required their makers to pledge like 3 to $4,000 for shelf space access.

ash alberg: What the actual fuck?
brianna punsalang: For their pop-up. I know, yeah.

ash alberg: I want to punch them in the face. Wooww. That is like a whole other level of what the fuck?

I am like, the level of also a size of business and therefore, like the people that have access to that can actually afford ...

brianna punsalang: And then it ... yeah.

ash alberg: .... 3 to $4000 for fucking shelf space when you don't even know if it's going to sell.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, they've ... I believe they've changed their business model since, but when they first launched, it was pretty obvious that like larger, more established, like eco brands were the only people they were stocking. And at that point, I was what's the point? Like anything that I could get from your store, I could literally get at any of the grocery stores in my area.

ash alberg: Yes, exactly.
brianna punsalang: Like any of the health food stores would have had 'em.

ash alberg: Yeah. That is fucking wild. It reminds me of, there's a craft market here that is, they've been running for 10 or 12 years now and I've never liked them [Laughs.] But during the pandemic, they like made some pretty significant gaffs that like, they still have folks that go to them and whatever.

But they were started by a pair of marketing people, like neither of them is actually a maker. And so they're ... like in order to join, they would vet any, if you were established, then they wouldn't allow you in. If your branding that you have established, ‘cause you're an established business, didn't match with their branding or they would get people who were like brand new, like hadn't done a sale before, so that then they could dictate that business's branding because they're new and so we'll just help you.

But they ... I think it was before the pandemic, I remember, but like Winnipeg, bless it, is not a city where the locals are going to give you so much money at any individual event that you're going to be able to pay your bills through, honestly, the month. And so they had a thing where they were doing their Christmas market, which is okay, fourth quarter of the year. It's the biggest fucking sales for any maker through the year, and also whatever you make during that quarter then needs to get you through then the next one to two quarters when they're quieter.

brianna punsalang: Yeah.

ash alberg: And so they had a thing in their contract, which I have found out about it from friends and then those friends were like, yeah, they removed it after enough of the established people complained because the newbies didn't know, like they had no clout to complain.

And so they, they were doing it, I think, early November and they put a more ... or maybe it was mid-November and they, in order to participate in their event in mid-November, you could not do any other sale for six weeks on either end, so literally through the entire fourth quarter of the year, you are not allowed to sell anywhere else, except at theirs.

And I'm like, you are not One of a Kind Market in Toronto where you leave that fucking market with five wholesale contracts in hand for five figure sales. This is maybe you'll sell your current stock, maybe, but like unlikely. And it was, I was like, what the fuck? Who do you think you are where you think that this is okay?

And also, where like you're claiming to serve a community and make space for a community and in actuality, you're just like fucking them over.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, absolutely. That's, it's been really hard for us with me being ... most people just perceive me as being a woman when they see me just to be really hard, to not get like absorbed into a lot of the girl boss shenanigans.

ash alberg: Oh, god. Yes. [Both laugh.]

brianna punsalang: Which are, like gives me hives. Like I just can't. Yeah, like I said earlier, I'm from a corporate retail background, so like I, just really heavy sales, like usually in a mall. And I just, I can't.

ash alberg: [Laughs.] You’re like, gives me hives. It needs to not be there anymore.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, it's definitely been a learning curve though with the store. Thank god for Jessie Susannah Karnatz that you interviewed, the Money Witch.

ash alberg: Yup. Jessie’s so great.

brianna punsalang: She's, she's great, ‘cause I was like, Hey, am I crazy for wanting to open the store? She's, no. So it was really great to be like, no, like you can totally do it, but it is hard for us, I think, long-term like setting financial goals because we're not selling stuff that you constantly have to come back in for.

A lot of our stuff you buy at once, you don't have to buy it again. Unless it's like body care, cleaning products or some of the ritual stuff, you're not going to be coming back in regularly to just like mindlessly consume stuff because that's not what we're about. But it does make it a lot harder to stay afloat. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: And I feel like people don't understand that. Like when you're like, okay, sustainability, like environmental sustainability is a core part of your brand. And by that, I mean a core part of your values and like ...

brianna punsalang: Yeah.

ash alberg: ... you also don't want to like, do the whole mindless consumerism. It's okay, yeah, capitalism is not automatically a terrible thing. The way that it has become is like a mutant awful version. But ... and especially, money is not inherently evil. The way that it has been used and weaponized and is currently like massively distributed in fucked up ways, that's a problem, but like money itself is just a tool.

But when you're like, okay, I'm going to hold all of these things as my core value and try to run a business off of it ...

brianna punsalang: It’s so hard.

ash alberg: and unless you've got either a really large audience and/or an audience with very deep pockets, to be able to keep going month after month is ... and no matter what the fuck is happening in the world, whether there's a recession or a war or a pandemic, or all three at once, like it's ...

brianna punsalang: Right? It's hard.
ash alberg: Yeah. And like obviously ...
brianna punsalang: It's hard too, ‘cause ...
ash alberg: ... we've decided it's worth it, but it's also exhausting.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, it's very exhausting. And I've heard from so many other zero waste store owners that you're putting yourself out of business in the long run, too, because as you raise awareness, then larger places like Target start carrying the stuff ...

ash alberg: Yes.

brianna punsalang: ... as well. And yeah, I want to see that happen ‘cause I want to see things be at a lower, more accessible cost for people. But I don't want to see that happen at the expense of like quality or sustainability.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly.
brianna punsalang: Just because we can produce as much doesn't mean we

should produce as much.
ash alberg: Yes. Yes. I feel like if you’re ... brianna punsalang: So that’s definitely hard.

ash alberg: You almost need to like, be branching into food like, because that's the only thing that people truly, consistently ... even with body care products. I grabbed some massage oil and a massage candle from ... I was so happy when Marissa brought them in, but it's from a sex worker owned biz in B.C. and I was like, okay, I definitely want these products, but also I can't smell them from B.C. So when Marissa brought them in I was so happy.

brianna punsalang: Yeah.
ash alberg: But I don't need them that often. Like my massage candle is going

to last me at least a couple of years at this rate. Like it's, maybe I'll buy ...

brianna punsalang: It’s definitely something we have at the store too because we have like really high-quality ingredients.

ash alberg: Yes.

brianna punsalang: And I do educate people about like how to maintain like their candles that they're buying, so when it says 50 to 60 hours burn time, you actually get 50 to 60 hours.

ash alberg: Yeah, right? Yeah, exactly.

brianna punsalang: So it's just, we laugh that we have a quarterly coven. Like I see people every three months around usually a solstice or equinox.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. They're like, oh, I ran out of these things. Let me come back. But it's, you need to also come in during the other, the rest of the quarter.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, I do see ... most of our regulars, I do see actually once a week, like clockwork, which is funny and I always tease them. It is a witchy, energetic thing. I can tell who's coming up the stairs most of the time, but also some of them are just so predictable.

ash alberg: Like it's two o'clock on a Tuesday. [Laughs.]

brianna punsalang: Yeah. But I've given them like, ‘cause I know they're coming in to see us and talk and have that sense of community, so I'm not expecting anyone ... like nobody has to spend money to occupy space in our store. I tell people that all the time, since we are like more community-oriented than we are sales driven.

But I have given them like a place to put that like nervous energy when they come in. So we do have our gumball tarot machine that you can put 50 cents in and get a tarot reading when you come in and then you feel like you've done something.

ash alberg: Oh, that’s so fun.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. It's great. And then we donate the proceeds from that every quarter, so right now it's Native Voters Alliance Nevada that we're fundraising for. So it’s cool to see people ...

ash alberg: That's so fucking cool.
brianna punsalang: ... getting their readings. One of our regulars named the

gumball machine Griselda.
ash alberg: [Laughs.] That’s a good name.

brianna punsalang: And he was saying that he's, oh yeah, I got to go get a reading with Griselda this afternoon. And people are like, oh, okay, cool. I'm like, they don't know it's a gumball machine.

ash alberg: That is hilarious. But, okay. This is the other thing, is that, so we've just been talking about like how hard it is to keep the fucking lights on sometimes. And then it's also, oh and also we're donating on a regular basis.

This is the thing where it's, we're not going to not do that. That defeats the purpose of running a business that is values-based to then run it, like every other fucking corporation out there. But it's also one of those things where I feel like especially when you're coming from marginalized communities and then like running intentional businesses and then like, you're not going to not do those things and also there is an expectation that you are going to do those things and that expectation can fuck you over a lot of times if you don't know ... like the number of queer owned businesses I know that start and that, and I managed to avoid it mostly through like sheer spite slash Aries energy.

But the ... I definitely have done in the past where I like prioritize what I think is making things accessible and/or like charitable donations or whatever, recognizing after the fact, oh, wait, that wasn't actually making it accessible to the folks that truly can't access it. It was just like giving people who like to complain about prices and can't afford it, but just don't want to pay the money, a discount.

It's, if that's the way that you end up running your business and you don't, you haven't figured out how do you make your business financially sustainable so that then you can do these other things without it affecting your ability to run the business safely, like it took me a while to figure out what is that kind of magic, sweet spot that I can do where I can be consistently like giving back regardless of how well the business is doing month by month, and like whether it's a lean time or not lean time, what are the things that I can do that is going to allow that to continue to be a core part of the biz?

But I feel like there's always this expectation of while you're from this community so therefore you should be like prioritizing XYZ ahead of your needs and then businesses burnout and close down and it's like ... and then meanwhile, like giant corporations do nothing and they're not being called to account in the same kind of way.

brianna punsalang: Oof. Yeah. That's been a real struggle with us and that's why I'm thankful that Jessie Susannah and then Cheryl Rafuse that I mentioned earlier, both when we were first launching gave us some business advice and said that there, we had to find a sustainable way to be able to give back since that was a priority of mine, without it negatively impacting our ability to grow and survive.

So we were doing like whatever, we were doing care packages with another business that we just weren't taking a cut. So the other business was local and the proceeds from that went to reimburse her for the cost of materials, and then

the rest of it, she was donating to different organizations and then we were using other money and goods donated to then fundraise to distribute other care packages to people in our area that couldn't afford.

Or even, I think we shipped to like ... god, we shipped out probably half of them. We ended up shipping like to New York and like the south and all over the place. Anyone that self-identified as being BIPOC got a free care package if they contacted us for awhile, but it was really hard to keep up with.

And even though it wasn't costing us much financially, the energetic output was a lot. It was a lot of moving pieces. It didn't feel sustainable long run, so I realized okay, we have to find a financial way to give back that also isn't going to be a huge economic burden ‘cause I see some other companies will give five to 10% of their proceeds ...

ash alberg: Yes.

brianna punsalang: ... to other places. And I know that I'm bookkeeping avoidant and that's not going to go well for me, and I know that also I am ... we're not very financially stable at the moment, so it didn't feel like it was a sustainable way to keep giving back.

ash alberg: No, 10% is huge.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, so we just shifted it to the community. So now what we do is if you tip online when you purchase online, or if you tip in person, or if you buy a tarot reading from Griselda, the gumball machine, all that money goes to a different person or a different organization quarterly.

ash alberg: Nice.
brianna punsalang: Yeah. That way it doesn't impact us, but we can still give

back and still be like a vessel for change.

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah, I feel like that's the thing. And if you're financially in a position where you can do more then that is great, but if that's not your reality ... I actually that was one of the things that I love most about Jessie Susannah's book, Money Magic, because I feel like, especially when you're reading money books, then even when they're being written by folks from marginalized communities, it still ultimately ends up feeling like it shifts towards like traditional capitalism in a way where it's okay, this doesn't quite feel either aligned with values and/or close to my lived experience.

And Jessie Susannah's was the first one, I think, especially with coming from queer community where the mentality in a way that's really fucking unhelpful is eat the rich. And it's, that's not actually a helpful mentality past the age of 20 honestly. And if you're going to be like living in actual world with like actual expenses and dependence and things like that, if you ever want to retire in a way that is safe and/or hold space for your body when it's either chronically ill or gets injured or whatever the fuck, it's not helpful to be like embodying this mentality of eat the rich.

And Jessie Susannah was the first one that I read who was like, you being under-resourced when you don't have to be under resourced is not actually helping. Like you're not supporting the cause. It's all ... yeah.

brianna punsalang: For real.

ash alberg: That's so true. And it's not that you need to be like, I would like to be a multimillionaire eventually with the like awareness that being a multimillionaire means I'm going to be able to give so much more and provide so much more to community.

But there are ways of being well-resourced at most economic stages. Not all of them, obviously. But you don't need to be a multimillionaire and also, you don't need to be like poverty line levels. There's not like a gold star because you made under poverty line amounts for your income last year. Like ...

brianna punsalang: Yeah. And I do see that a lot in the witch community where people are like, oh, money is a material thing and I shouldn't be pursuing it because that's not being spiritual. And you’re right, Jessie Susannah was one of the first people that was like no. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: That’s bullshit.

brianna punsalang: You need to have money to survive because we live in a capitalistic society, so that's not like ... you can't make yourself a martyr. But also, I see that a lot in the zero-waste community where people are like going on these, like no-buy challenges and talking down to people about, I don't buy that anymore. And it's like this kind of sense of piousness.

ash alberg: Yes.

brianna punsalang: Where it's I don't ... I wonder sometimes with these more privileged people that talk like that, have they ever like experienced being in

like the checkout stand at a grocery store and not even wanting to look at like the magazines or anything else in the impulse section when you're checking out, because you know that you can only afford to get the necessities?

I'm not sure people understand that. Which is another reason why we don't demonize plastic, because if a fruity scented lip balm is going to be great for your mental health and it comes in plastic, do you.

ash alberg: Yeah. And I feel like ... brianna punsalang: Whatever you need.

ash alberg: ... do that. Well, and I think that's also the, yeah, the privilege that's attached to it. It's a, it's like how minimalism is so frequently ... like I see it in slow fashion community quite regularly, where it's this like minimalist, like capsule wardrobe and I'm like, okay, your capsule wardrobe is ... it drives me up the fucking wall.

I'm like, the privilege that you have to be able to afford a wardrobe that a) is manufactured slow fashion. That's expensive. And also if you're going all natural fibers, they wear out faster so you need to be able to replace your clothing more frequently. If you're not replacing it, then you need the time and resources to be mending and the knowledge to know how to mend.

I'm sorry, mending pants takes fucking forever and I hate it. And it's, you're also living in clearly a climate where you don't need to have multiple different pieces of clothing that also serve different purposes. It's the ... and that if you do, that you can afford to buy it no matter what. Doesn't matter whether it's in season or out of season, if it's on sale, if it's not on sale, that you can, if you need a rain coat, go and buy a rain coat for the one time a year that you need a raincoat.

And there's just, there's so much ... and also that if you have a family that you can also then do that times, however many bodies are in your family. And however, and probably all of them are like able-bodied people as well. Like the straw ban is a perfect example of that, where I remember when the straw ban first came out and I was thinking to myself, okay, I know multiple quadriplegics where this is not okay.

And also then when they were like we have these options and these options. And I was like, I found this one graphic that actually broke down okay, of all of these options, here are the things that these are the situations where they are safe. And these are the situations where they are not.

And I'm like, okay, so basically like single use plastic straws are pretty much, unfortunately the only one that is consistently safe, no matter what your body is able to do. So many of the other ones have either choking or stabbing risks and/or burn risks if you're dealing with hot beverages.

brianna punsalang: Absolutely. And so many, like the reusable ones, all of them are going to require like washing and maintenance.

ash alberg: Exactly. And like sanitization.

brianna punsalang: Which is sometimes is more ... yeah. And that's sometimes like, not something that people are able to do if they're chronically ill.

ash alberg: Exactly. Or like things like when people are like, oh, you can get single use like catheters, for example. Oh, you can just get a catheter installed. Yeah, you can. And then you're going to end up on antibiotics for most of your life because you're going to have constant UTIs.

Whereas if you use single use catheters, then yes, that's a lot of waste and also your body isn't going to be put at further wear and tear from unnecessary medical conditions that honestly, there's a very small percentage of people that need those, and so we should be able to accommodate that percentage of people. Like it's not a one, like one size fits all generally is like one size fits small number of able-bodied people only.

brianna punsalang: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's why we don't demonize plastic in our store.

ash alberg: I just want to come and show up at your guys’ store. [Laughs.] brianna punsalang: We do ship, but yeah, I know it’s not the same because you

don't get to see ...

ash alberg: It's not, I like, I want to walk in. Especially with which stores I love knowing how they smell. [Chuckles.]

brianna punsalang: Yeah. And that is a joke. We used to be in a smaller space across the hall. Right now, we're directly from across from the staircase, but it used to be the joke is that you could smell us before you could see us. [Ash chuckles.] ‘Cause I would hear people on the stairs being like, I can smell a witch store but I can't see it. [Ash laughs.]

But yeah, we, it's a very magical blend. Pretty much if you, if someone were to order like one of the scented candles and a pack of the incense and then sniff them both at the same time, that's pretty much what the store smells like. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Okay. Then I should probably just do that. Just like, keep it ... brianna punsalang: Yeah.

ash alberg: ... in a box and just open the box every once in a while for a sniff. [Giggles.]

brianna punsalang: Yeah. My cousin ordered stocking stuffers for her family from us, and then was laughing that everyone that was in her house, like her, she hid them in the top of her closet in her room. And her kids kept being like, why does your room smell so good? [Laughs.] She didn't want to tell them it's because she got like incense to put in their stockings.

ash alberg: That's so cute. I love that.

brianna punsalang: And then we distribute all of our shredded paper waste to a local composting crew, Down to Earth Compost, and they're laughing that the shredded paper smells like our store.

ash alberg: That would be so great. [Laughs.] Especially in a composting space. That would be a very nice breath of literally fresh air.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I know. It's so funny, when our friend comes to, I'm like, how was work today? And they're like, oh yeah, no stinky bins today. [Ash laughs.] It's a job perk. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: I love it. Willow has just appeared with her jingle and her clicking paws. So what is something that you wish you'd been told about magic or witchual ... ritual or witchcraft when you were younger?

brianna punsalang: I wish someone had addressed that you can be a member of an organized religion and still be a witch earlier ‘cause I definitely, I do think I probably missed out on a lot of relationships that would have been enriching just because it was people from organized religions and I didn't have the vocabulary to help untangle some of that so we could have common ground.

But I also didn't, wasn't holding the space for them to even, maybe even be able to approach me.

ash alberg: Yeah, totally.

brianna punsalang: So I wish that’s something that I had known earlier because it's been so great getting to talk through a lot of that trauma and bond with members of the community that are from these organized faith groups and still practicing witches.

ash alberg: Yeah. That resonates big time, especially the like, not having the vocabulary to hold space for those conversations. I definitely, honestly like having these Snort and Cackle episodes has, and the interviews, has been like really shifted the way that I engage with other people's faith-based practices.

And not even necessarily because I'm speaking with witches who still are rooted in organized religion, but because they come from backgrounds that were significantly more religious than mine ever was, and so they like had to learn how to navigate that, including like navigating post-religion trauma.

The bits of it that they still, that they still find value in. It's oh, yeah. That's a common human value. That makes sense that it is important.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the thing is at the end of the day like, people tend to do rituals or pray for the same reasons. It's either for like healing or protection or help through a difficult time either like health-wise or financially or mentally. It's all the same thing at the end of the day.

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah. It's literally just like your prayer or your spell looks and sounds a little different, but it still ends up being the same thing.

brianna punsalang: Yeah.

ash alberg: Which I always find really funny when you get the like crazy Christian who likes sends you a message and they're like, like I got one email, one time that was like all capitals BLOOD OF JESUS. I was like, that's a hex, right? That's a hex.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. We thankfully are not popular enough online yet. [Ash cackles.] To even have the evangelical trolls show up in our comment section. But we did recently have some evangelical people come to the store and

then were like very rude ‘cause they were fundraising for something and I was like, I'm sorry, like I don't have the resources to help you right now.

ash alberg: To give you money. [Laughs.]

brianna punsalang: Yeah. Like also you're being rude to me so like, why would I help you right now? Also it just sucks cause they were from like outside of our area. So I'm like, why are you ... what did you do in your own hometown that you have to fundraise like two hours away? That just seems sus.

ash alberg: Oooo. Yes, also that. No.

brianna punsalang: Yeah. So I was just like, no. Great timing though. Like of course, like our Catholic homie was there, just like what's happening? [Chuckles.] So they like backed down the stairs really fast and then went downstairs into the salon underneath us and were complaining to them about the Satanists upstairs. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Wooww.
brianna punsalang: And the salon’s like, no, like they're like modern witches.

That's not how this works. Like they're all about vibes. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: I like that the salon people ...

brianna punsalang: It was so funny.

ash alberg: ... were like, no, you have the wrong kind. [Laughs.]

brianna punsalang: Yeah. No, like it's all about vibes. They've just got like really good candles. Oh man.

ash alberg: Oh, that's great. Oh my god. So, what's next for you?
brianna punsalang: Oof. I’m hoping that we can just get ... I know, like we're

just trying to survive at this point. ash alberg: Yeah.

brianna punsalang: I am stepping out of my comfort zone and doing more PR stuff, which is why you're talking to me today. So I believe you emailed me in November and ...

ash alberg: I for sure did.

brianna punsalang: ... I just didn’t have the spoons, and then Marissa was like, you're ghosting my friend. And I'm like, am I? [Both laugh.] Like, I'm overwhelmed and neurodivergent.

ash alberg: Like, I forget who I email half of the time. And Marissa’s like, you guys haven't talked yet ‘cause I haven't seen the episode, therefore ...

brianna punsalang: Yeah, Marissa’s like, Ash is not a weirdo, Ash is my friend, you're safe there. And I was like, yeah, I’m sure. I'm just very tired.

ash alberg: I am a weirdo.
brianna punsalang: I have no idea what day it is. But the same kind of weirdo

as me, like strange and unusual. ash alberg: Exactly.

brianna punsalang: So we have this podcast, then a local media group’s doing a video interview with us soon so that'll be on ACE productions, I believe. I'm not sure what their official website is.

So I'm just trying to do more PR, more events. And we are trying to launch our wholesale line that has been delayed, so we're infusing some magical zero waste witchiness into mundane zero waste products.

ash alberg: I love that. We need more of those things. This is the thing is that people always think that witchiness needs to be like very like intense and involved and all. I'm like, literally if you make some soup or wash your floors, then that counts as witchiness depending on how you do it.

brianna punsalang: Absolutely. I've been watching the Dead Files a lot and it's the first like paranormal investigative show I've seen where it's not like bullshit to be quite honest.

ash alberg: Yup.

brianna punsalang: And it's nice. Sometimes he’s like yeah, so what you're going to do is once a week, because your daughter's a sensitive, is you're just going to clean your whole house top to bottom.

ash alberg: Yes. Yes.
brianna punsalang: It's true though. That's sometimes all you need to be doing.

ash alberg: And I feel like that's a thing that like, people often don't think about, or especially when there's like ghosts attached to things. Either if you have a house ghost, who's like not a house spirit, but like a house ghost, or if you like, like people like buy antiques and bring in into the house, I'm like ...

brianna punsalang: Oh my god, yeah.

ash alberg: ... your energy is fucked up. What are you ... that's the thing with those like paranormal shows that are the bullshit ones. I'm like, okay, what they're doing is bullshit. But also there's a hundred percent a ghost attached to that thing right over there.

brianna punsalang: Right! I think that's the worst part about being like a sensitive person is that sometimes you can be sitting there and you're like nope. You need to be checking that [indecipherable] behind you, sir. [Laughs.] It's not the creepy doll. Yeah.

ash alberg: The creepy doll’s just a creepy doll.
brianna punsalang: For real though. Yeah. The doll’s just creepy because

they’re creepy. But yeah.
ash alberg: Oh man. That’s a ...

brianna punsalang: Definitely. Yeah. It's a Mercury retrograde right now so it's what we lovingly refer to as Google my Gooley season at the store because everyone's haunting or ramping up. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: They really are. Like Beltane too. We went from Beltane into Mercury retrograde, and it's this is, just the number of like black candles I've been burning lately.

brianna punsalang: Oh my god, yeah.

ash alberg: I’m like okay everybody, calm the fuck down. Get out of my house.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, I was laughing about that on your, when you mentioned that in your other episode. I was like, oh gosh, that's a vibe. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Like it's not all the time. And I got fucking lucky ‘cause I actually like bought my house with seeing it. I was like, there was a whole like process of like putting offers down, not getting them. And then I was at work and my mom, bless her, she knows me. And so she found this house and it was like a rainy Wednesday.

And she was like, it's perfect for you. Do you want me to put an offer in? And I was like, yeah, go ahead. And so she like got things going with the real estate agent because I was at work and then got, it got accepted and I found out that evening and I was actually at a meeting at a friend's house, two houses down.

I was like, I just bought a house. It's that one. And then I walked into the house and I was like, oh there's no ghosties that actually live here. This is great. So it's just been like, it's the ones that like, it's the ones that kind of come in and then leave and/or the ones that are attached to me. But I'm like, this could have been way worse. Like I could have fucking been in trouble. [Laughs.]

brianna punsalang: Oh my gosh. Yeah, for real. I'm pretty sure we're on like a lay line where we live ‘cause it's just like some of the worst stuff in the States’ history is like a block from us.

ash alberg: Oh god. Yeah, nope.

brianna punsalang: Bvut I'm just like outside, like clapping all the time. [Ash laughs.] Like clapping a perimeter around my house. Like the crazy old Chinese grandma I am.

My neighbors thankfully know what I do for a living and are cool with it, they're like an acre away but yeah we're renting and it's a peculiar area for sure. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yeah. That is fucking wild. Yeah, the like trauma ... brianna punsalang: Yeah.

ash alberg: ... the land holds. One time I went to New England and was, I went down to meet up with friends in Salem, and then we went to New York state for a yarn festival, and we rented this very cute little cabin, but then there was like a little like brook and then a hill in behind the brook.

And so we arrived at the Airbnb and I was like, I'm going to go and explore. Walked across the brook and I was like, I am not supposed to be here, turned around.

brianna punsalang: Oh, my gosh.

ash alberg: Spent the rest of the time, just like watching what I am pretty sure was a ghost deer herd, just like eating in the hills for the rest of the time that we were there. I was like, this is some haunted ass land.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, the deer ghosts on my commute at night are like the worst part of my year, to be honest. I’m like trying not to break for nothing.

ash alberg: Yes! Seriously. And it's, the thing with the deer too, is I'm like pretty sure most of the time that the deer are like, the deer are real, but then there's like ghosts that have either inhabited the deer or are like hanging out on the deer. I don't know.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, we just have like actual ghost deer. It's like the deer just doesn't know that it doesn't need to be like crossing the freeway.

ash alberg: It did that once. It didn't go well, but now it's stuck.

brianna punsalang: Yeah, they're just like, hello? Like ... yeah, it's the worst.

ash alberg: Oh yeah. The deer are not always the smartest.

brianna punsalang: No, they're not. They're really sweet but they're not the smartest.

ash alberg: They're like about the same size and look as my dog. Their like necks are a little bit longer. So we go for hikes, they just look at her and I'm like, this is not going to go well for anybody involved.

brianna punsalang: [Laughs.] No. Oh man.

ash alberg: This has been delightful. I just realized we're like over two hours. brianna punsalang: Thank you. Yeah, it has. I'm sure. I know. I was like, I'm

not even going to ... as my partner says, time’s a colonial construct.

ash alberg: It is. Pandemic has made it really clear like to more people that time is a lie. But like time is a lie and a half these days.

brianna punsalang: It is a lie. It is an absolute lie. ash alberg: It’s, yeah.

brianna punsalang: But yeah, thank you for having me. I'm like shy and neurodivergent so I generally avoid being interviewed, so thank you.

ash alberg: This has been adorable, so ... and I think we did well, went on some good tangents. We'll make sure that all of the links for people to find you are in the show notes and that they know where to find you. And you guys ship internationally so people can ...

brianna punsalang: We do. And it's plastic-free shipping, mainly recycled. ash alberg: Perfect. So when people get boxes that have other labels still half

on them, like the way that I roll ... [Both laugh.]

[Upbeat music plays.] You can find full episode recordings and transcripts at snortandcackle.com. Just click on podcast in the main menu. Follow Snort and Cackle on Instagram @snortandcackle and join our seasonal book club with @SnortandCackleBookClub. Don't forget to subscribe and review the podcast by your favorite podcasting platform.