our guest for episode 3 is liz migliorelli! liz is a herbalist, animist and educator. she has a clinical herbal practice, tends a medicinal garden and crafts flower essences under the name sister spinster. she really loves flowers. liz teaches classes on plant medicine, ancestral remembrance, folk magic, hearth culture and storytelling. you can find her online at sisterspinster.net and on instagram @sister_spinster.

each season we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #snortandcacklebookclub, with a book review by ash and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. this season's #snortandcacklebookclub read is babaylan sing back: philippine shamans and voice, gender, and place by grace nono.

take the fibre witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz. follow us on instagram @snortandcackle and be sure to subscribe via your favourite podcasting app so you don't miss an episode!

support future seasons of snort & cackle by joining the creative coven community.

transcript

snort & cackle - season 4, episode 3 - liz migliorelli

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] Hello, and welcome to the Snort and Cackle podcast where every day magic, work and ritual intersect. I'm your host, Ash Alberg, a queer fibre witch and hedge witch. Each season we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #SnortAndCackleBookClub with a book review by me and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. Our book this season is Babaylan Sing Back: Philippine Shamans and Voice, Gender and Place by Grace Nono.

Whether you're an aspiring boss witch looking to start your knitwear design business, a plant witch looking to play more with your local naturally dyed color palette or a knit witch wondering just what the hell is a natural yarn and how do you use it in your favorite patterns, we've got the solution for you.

Take the free fiber witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz and find out which self-paced online program will help you take your dreams into reality. Visit ashalberg.com/quiz [upbeat music fades out] and then join fellow fiber witches in the Creative Coven Community at ashalberg.com/creative-coven-community for 24/7 access to Ash’s favorite resources, monthly zoom knit nights, and more. [End of intro.]

Hello, everyone. I am super excited today because I am here with Liz Migliorelli. Liz is an herbalist, animist, and educator. She has a clinical herbal practice, tons of medicinal garden, and crafts flower essences under the name Sister Spinster. You might be familiar with that.

She really loves flowers. Liz teaches classes on plant medicine, ancestral remembrance, folk magic, hearth culture, and storytelling.

Hi, Liz. [Giggles.]
liz migliorelli: Hi, good morning.
ash alberg: How's it going?
liz migliorelli: I'm trying to keep warm by the fire today.

ash alberg: You have, it's like a beautiful fireplace behind you. When you got up to get your tea, I was like, that is stunning.

liz migliorelli: [Chuckles.] It's my companion in the winter months.
ash alberg: Yup. Yup. It's very pretty. It's like everyone, if you're thinking like

classic, like hearth witch, this is that fireplace. [Laughs.] liz migliorelli: [Chuckles.] It is, it really is.

ash alberg: [Willow’s collar jingles in the background.] Okay. And of course Willow is going to come and jingle her way along.

Tell us a bit about you and what you do in the world.

liz migliorelli: I am a big plant person. I feel like that's the framework or the foundation or the main root of how I belong to the world is through the understanding and relationships with plants. And so I am a clinical herbalist, so I see clients, have a practice of helping folks with all kinds of things.

It could be emotional, it could be spiritual, it's often physical. There's, all of those things intersect. And then I also have a product line that I have called Sister Spinster, which is also the name that I use when teaching classes or at least promoting them.

I'm still Liz but I teach a lot of classes on folk magic and folk medicine traditions, mainly rooted in the traditions from which my people are from, which is the Western Slavic from the Southern Mediterranean and from the British Isles. And ... what else do I do?

I'm a, yeah, I'm a gardener. I have a really big garden and I feel like that's the part of the work that I don't talk about a lot, but it's there and I make medicine with and from the plants that I grow.

And yeah, that's sort of it for now.

ash alberg: [Both giggle.] I love that. So does all of the stuff that you make come from your garden or do you also need to supplement for some things?

liz migliorelli: So it depends. I do supplement. Yes. Usually through ... I don't do that much wildcrafting anymore, if at all, actually. I'm mainly buying herbs

from ... I am lucky to be in a place where there's a lot of people growing herbs. Lots of farmers growing herbs. And so I can rely on local folks or herbal CSAs to bring in herbs that I'm not growing in my garden.

ash alberg: That's amazing because yeah, like I, we have mutual people but way before that, I, one of the first tinctures that I ever bought from anyone and definitely before I'd like really committed to my witchy times was from you. And I can't remember which one it was. It might've been Grace’s.

But it probably was now that I think about it. But it's, I think as long as I've been like aware of which is operating in the world as modern witches, then your line of tinctures has been like in my awareness bubble as well.

So I, yeah, I try growing my plants and the only ones that have a really easy time are like my nettles and mugwort. They're just like, we're fine. And my comfrey root, like those guys are just like happy as clams. Everything else is, we will give you five blooms this year. Fuck. All right. [Laugh-snorts.]

liz migliorelli: [Laughs.] In some ways, it's almost what more do you need besides those three? That's a really ... you can ... there's worlds there. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Yeah, absolutely. It's so funny, like my nettles grow literally right beside my front gate. I like intentionally planted them right there and then I've just built some new beds last fall to be prepped for this spring. Whenever it comes, we just got more snow today.

But my plan is to also put another barrier of nettles, like right up the edge, because I'm in the city and if the nettles then you know not to prick yourself. If you're welcomed here, I will warn you in advance. If you're not welcome to here, you're going to get stung. That's their job. It's like my dog.

liz migliorelli: Yeah. That's amazing. I've never grown ... I've never intentionally grown nettles. Like it's always been a plant that has just been in immense abundance where I've lived. And I guess that is the one plant that I generally wildcraft.

And then I have, my house now where I live, the reason why I moved to this house was because the back of it is just this entire field of nettles that leads down to a little stream. And once I saw that, I was like, oh, this is my house.

ash alberg: Yes. [Both laugh.] You’re like, ah yes.

liz migliorelli: The number one friend is here. I can be here. Yeah.

ash alberg: Oh man, I love nettles just ‘cause they're just like, so not subtle about their boundaries. And I really appreciate that about them. They're just like, you did not take care of me properly. Here's a sting.

And I know that a lot of folks find a lot of relief from chronic pain by actually like being intentionally stunned by nettles. I am not one of those people. Like one tidy prick hurts like a bitch, just like at aha. But thank you for letting me know that I didn't treat you properly.

And then meanwhile, my dog just shoves her way through the ones at home. And then also from the ones like there, they grow around here like crazy as well. She just goes traipsing through them. Okay, apparently you guys are buddies ‘cause you seem fine.

liz migliorelli: Yeah. Yeah. It's I feel like it's this interesting ... for me, I see nettle season as this initiation into this sort of season of like vibrant, aliveness of spring, like it's like spring’s here. And so I do this ... I often call like March or into April the month of stinging hands, because it's like my ... the way I begin spring as with harvesting nettles and just having that tradition of doing that and intentionally stinging myself, which I feel like it awakens me into this season that sort of awakens me from my more hibernation winter time of year.

And it's okay, the sting is here. I can invite that fire in again, a little bit. And yeah, it's just, it's become such a, that plant is so important to me on so many levels, but even just that ritual of getting stung, even if it's like a little bit just at first, because there have been times, you get stung and then it just like shoots down your arm.

Sometimes it's worse than other times. [Both laugh.] ash alberg: Depends on how bad they are.

liz migliorelli: But yeah, yeah. I really love ... it's something that I've learned to really look forward to. And I really, especially right now at the end of February when there's still ice and snow everywhere, I'm like craving that zap from that plant and that deep, like nutrition as well.

ash alberg: Yeah, that makes so much sense. Oh, I love this. I guess that kind of like really easily takes us into our next question, which is, tell us about your personal relationship with ritual and magic.

liz migliorelli: Yeaah. [Both laugh.] Like where to begin? I think that both, both ritual and magic ... so magic is in many ways my worldview in that I have a sense of belonging to the world through the practice of magic and ritual is one way in which I practice magic, whether that be like the spring nettle harvest or my daily devotions to the different spirits and gods and ancestors that I tend to, and I'm in relationship with or ritual cleansing, or, there's so many different ways in which all of that happens.

But in some ways it's what isn't ... what is ... everything can be framed.

ash alberg: Yes. That's what I love about this honestly, is people are like, I don't think that I really have that kind of a practice. And then we start digging and they're like, ooh, everything I do is like that. I’m like yeeahh.

liz migliorelli: Yeah ‘cause it's also, magic is one of those things that is actually always changing. And that's, that is what magic is by definition. And, or maybe you can't actually define it because it always shapeshifts. But so I think it's something that I have and that I hold as this relationship.

It's one way, or it's really the main way in which I am held in relationship with the world around me. Not just in the physical realm, but also in the spirit realm, in the realm of the unseen. And so wait, was the question how it applies to my work?

ash alberg: That's the next question, but we can connect them right now if you want.

liz migliorelli: [Laughs.] I guess it's just so, it feels very vast. And also it feels very specific to me. Like my practice of it is going to be very different than yours. And, but I hold it or have it be the foundation of all things for me personally in my life for the most part.

ash alberg: I love that.

liz migliorelli: Not all things, but like most things. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And it's interesting too, ‘cause I feel like again, yeah, magic shapeshifts and, becomes relevant for whatever time we are in both like in the grand scheme of things and also like literally like in the moment.

And it's funny, ‘cause you can totally put magic into whatever you're doing. Like the amount of tech magic these days and code hexing and things like that. I'm like, this is wild and also totally makes sense. It is fascinating.

And then, on the complete opposite side of it, then we can make those very like basic natural functions of being a human also very magical. And that has absolutely nothing to do with anything modern or technical or anything like that.

liz migliorelli: Mhmm. Like cooking.
ash alberg: Yeeaah! So much magic and cooking. Yes. Yeah. And sex magic

and cleaning magic and all of those things.

So how did you get started? Was it a thing that was like encouraged at home? Was it a thing that you like came into as an adult?

liz migliorelli: No, I was raised in a very atheist household. Just my dad was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school and rebelled from that. And so he did not want his children raised in that way. Which is interesting because now I've, I have strong working relations with the Black Madonna and many saints that are Catholic and it's just, it's ...

ash alberg: Catholicism and magic are like best buddies. [Laughs.]
liz migliorelli: Yeah.
ash alberg: All the witchcraft is hello, I guess you're here, we'll do this.

liz migliorelli: Yeah, absolutely. So it's not something that I necessarily had within a familial context, but I think for me as a kid, I loved myths and fairytales and things like that. And that really shaped a lot of my thinking in the world. And just when you read that much mythology and that, so many fairytales, it's oh, how can the world not include that?

ash alberg: A hundred percent. Yes. [Liz laughs.] I'm like, obviously there are fairies. We might not see them as adults, but as a kid, I totally saw them.

liz migliorelli: Yeah, totally. And I think I started ... it's interesting, the Greek gods, like really spoke to me first as a younger child. And I still, I'm like in devotional relationship with many of those gods today in a very different way than I was as a kid. [Both chuckle.]

But yeah. I think so, like through story, that's a very big way in which it felt alive to me and it felt real was through story. And then I think the real thing that brought me to plants and plant magic and then everything else from there was through getting sick. And I think that a lot ... that happens for a lot of people where it’s like there’s this breaking point that also maybe serves as like a spiritual crisis in some ways as well, because when you are so depleted and like chronically dealing with something and there's a desire to transform in some way.

And so I think just having an understanding through being ill for a very long period of time that I could maybe be in relationship with my body in a different way than what I was told than rather giving up my power every time, going to a doctor to tell me that there's nothing wrong with me, and so like actually being had been forced to really advocate for myself and thus realizing, oh, that advocacy is actually extremely empowering to step into that and really hold and really think about like my intentions and how I hold my will in the world.

And that really shifted into more magical thinking for me in regards to not just health, but like again, everything else in my life.

ash alberg: Yeah, it's, well and it makes sense too with plants ‘cause I feel like plants advocate for us, whether we're asking them to or not. There's a lot of times where plants are just, we're just going to keep showing up for you. Like every time you walk somewhere, you're going to spot us. I'm like, there's a reason that we keep on popping up and it's because you need us around and we know that and so we're just gonna keep hanging out.

liz migliorelli: It's the oldest of relationships that we have, so it's yeah.

ash alberg: You've now made a career out of this, so how does your ritual and magic play into your work? And both like in terms of the obvious side of it, where like you are a working witch, and also are there specific practices that you have that you like structure around your business that are not necessarily like things that you are providing to others, but that are practices for yourself that are specifically business magic practices?

liz migliorelli: Yeeah. It's an interesting ... it's an interesting thing for me to apply these two worlds together. And like I do it and I also have a lot of mental turmoil over it in a lot of ways, because to me magic and the identity of witch, which isn't even necessarily a word that I would you use often to define myself, but it, in essence, yes, that is one way in which I identify.

Witchcraft has always operated outside and it is not, it's a response to these dominating forces of empire essentially. And so it exists and is made and is supposed to respond to capitalism and so it's like really hard for me sometimes to hold that kind of magical ... I apply magical thinking to my business, but I don't know if I like apply ... I'm not like working a lot of money magic.

I do like personally, but not really in regards to like my business. I can hope to have better relationship to money and that’s sort of more of what I'm working towards, but not necessarily like, I hope this fourth quarter is a great ... [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Right.

liz migliorelli: I'm not like applying this to my QuickBooks account. [Ash laughs.] And so I don't necessarily operate in like bringing those practices into the nitty-gritty details of running a business. But nor am I like the type of business person who is at all, like trained or aware of those business terms. [Laughs.]

And so I dunno, it's like an interesting, it's always is in conversation for me. But I think for me, you could even, just even within the name of my business, which is Sister Spinster, which is a folk name for nettles. And it's an old name because nettles were a plant that ... or they're a fiber plant, they're made to spin yarn as and ... [Laughs.] It’s like a –

[Both talking at the same time.]

ash alberg: They are a beast, too. [Snorts.]

liz migliorelli: Yes, absolutely. I've only done it a few times and I'm not like a fiber craft person by any means. I have so much respect for it, but I have zero patience for it, but I've made myself do it because I'm like, this is your name that you use. What are you doing not trying it?

I don't want to take it up as my vocation ‘cause it's not, but like respect. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Anytime people are processing ... it's so funny because I primarily work with wool. And I do work with other fibers, but like my happy place is wool, and especially with my dye plots. And I would much rather have nettles as my dye plant than to be hand-processing it into spinning fiber.

‘Cause it's yes, it is a natural fiber and it is a natural cloth. And it's actually like way better than like people who are like buying like bamboo whatever. Like that, in order for bamboo to become usable cloth or thread or yarn, you have to chemically mush it and then chemically unmush it. Whereas nettle, you can literally do all of it by hand, but it is hard on the body.

Like even when we remove the stinging portion of it, like it's physically really demanding and it's not a quick process. But the end result is amazing.

liz migliorelli: Yeah. And that's honestly like how initiation with plants should be in many ... I feel like it is like they make you put in the work to really be in relationship with and receive gifts and form intimacy. Like it's not something that just happens over night.

But that word, spinster, for me applies to this lineage of people who yes, like spun wool or spun fiber, whatever nettle fiber but the, but that also links us to the word witch in lineage, of that, there's this, literally I think the Anglo-Saxon word is “wick,” W-I-C-K, which is someone who twists, binds, spins, turns fiber, and that practice became associated with witches because they have this act, which ties us to the concept of the fates, of the, you could call them the fates. You could call them the Norns. You could call them the Matrona. You can call them a many different things, but there's this idea of constantly being able to create your world through the spinning and twisting and knotting and binding that's happening.

So that word, spinster, to me is like someone who really applies their will into that creative act, which is what magic is. And that's essentially what being a witch can look like. So for me even in namesake, that word is really something that I'm always thinking about. And thus it really reflects my business and that my work is always changing.

It's really about honoring the seasons, creating rituals on the land where I live but also researching rituals of my ancestors and really bringing that forward. And being in practice and in right relationship to yeah, the place where I live. So in some ways it feels like the magical work of the work that I put out into the world that I'm making my money off of is [Chuckles] ... it's informed by magical thinking in that it really is about how I'm in relationship to the business, that it is ever-changing.

It's not stagnant. It's not something that really stays that consistent in many ways, but that's not how the seasons are, and that's not how the plants are. [Both laugh.] Like my camomile crop might look different one year than the next, and

that's going to affect the stash that's in my apothecary. And so that word of spinster or that lineage of those who spin, those weirding ways, right? That cunning way of knowing that change is what is constant and we can assert our will into that as much as we want, but that that changes the only thing that is.

And so it's interesting, like under capitalism where there's this idea that you have to have like products that are the same year after year and so for me, it's more of like my magic applies to how I carry myself in my business. What's your capacity level for today? [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yes! 100 percent.

liz migliorelli: And are you doing the rituals and practices that allow you to like really show up for the demands of your work? And it's like that magic is what feeds me and nourishes me. But it's not necessarily ... it is a part of my output, but it's not, that part isn't for sale.

ash alberg: Yeah. I love that. I like the idea of having boundaries around what kind of magic we're willing to like offer for others.

And then also what magic we keep for ourselves, because like it's, and it's one of those things where like on the one hand, yeah, you want people to have access to information as much as possible, but there's also certain things where there's reasons that we keep certain things to ourselves and there's reasons that we might share like, here's the general basics of it, but in the way that you are going to do it yourself, like that's an entirely personal practice and you need to figure that out for yourself. I'm just going to tell you, these are the tools that I use, or this is the framework that I am doing it under if I [indecipherable word] at all.

liz migliorelli: Which I mean, that's what I do in a lot of the classes that I teach, it's like looking at folk traditions, looking at how people have done it in the past, looking at how our ancestors might have carried out relationship to land and to plants and to food and so on and so forth.

And not necessarily trying to reconstruct it bit by bit, because that's impossible at this point in the game, and also I don't know how helpful it is, again, to maintain that sort of rigid response when in actuality, like what was written down and what we have is one account, and so it can point at these larger themes of working and how we might approach a certain spirit or ... but it's not gonna, your relationship to one plant might look really different and feel really different in your body then how it feels in mine.

And so my intention with teaching and offering the classes that I do is to bring forward examples and themes of okay, these are spring folk magic traditions. We're talking about ways in which people honored holy wells and sacred springs and water magic. And what did that look like?

And then what does it look like for you to go to the river and start a relationship there? And so it's like a localized intimacy that feels like a part of what it is or a part of the intention that I carry with that.

ash alberg: That, yeah, that makes so much sense. Especially with when we're living in more urban environments, I always find it really interesting when folks feel like ... we can semi-blame Instagram for this, but we can blame Instagram for a lot of things where people feel like in order to like, and I'm putting this in quotations, like be witch, or do magic properly that they need to buy certain things.

They need to look a certain way. They can only do it in these like very pristine environments. And it's that's not the majority of how we live, like most of us don't live in these like pristine spaces. If you do live in like a wilder space, then that comes with a level of labor that nobody's posting about their like, dirty, like mud encrusted fingertips from needing to dig through whatever mud for whatever reason.

That's not what gets on the ground. It's like, here I am standing in this beautiful field of flowers and we're going to take the shot in between whacking at the bugs that are flying around our faces. And then in the city, then like, yeah, you're dealing with contaminated soil a lot of the time, but you can still find so much medicine and so much plant magic in the middle of the city and so much like water magic as well, but it just looks different.

And so like giving people almost permission for that to be the way that they are working with their land, because like your land is this. And so whether that's where you initially came from or where your ancestors initially came from, this is where you are now and so what does that land relationship look like and how do we be in good relation with the land regardless of where ancestrally our land might have been located?

Because I feel like, especially when we're trying to heal ancestral lineages it's, you first have to ... not first, but one of the important things is like reconciling with the land that you are currently on before you then go start dealing with what is honestly like quite ephemeral in terms of what the land might have been, especially if you've never been there yourself.

liz migliorelli: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting thing because ... ahh. This idea of needing to go to somewhere pristine a) doesn't exist, like that's not real. And also it discounts the ultimate truth that we are all nature. City is a part of nature and so that there's not this sort of separate way of dividing out.

It all has different energetics and different qualities and there's different like forms of movement and systems that are in place and there's ... and all of it is just how it is and it's always changing. And to try to create something that is pristine or pure or untouchable feels like a big farce to me and like a waste of time almost because it continues this narrative of estrangement, even from our own bodies that we are separate from.

And so for me, it's really about, okay, how, a) where am I at in my body right now? I’m like starting there. And then and what about what is outside the door? And or even my house, like the animism of the place, this literal structure that I'm in, like that's a part of it too.

Yeah, it's an interesting thing that we do when we try to like, strive for that kind of like natural purity that I just don't, I don't believe in that. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Yeah, it's so funny. It's, I think about this past fall, I like deep cleaned my house in a way where honestly, even when I bought my house a few years ago I don't think that I deep cleaned it in the same level. And you could just feel the house lighten.

And it was just like, I'm like, yeah, no, we've cleared out a bunch of ghosties, but even my mum believes in ghosts, not quite in the same way that I do. And she was like, it just feels brighter in here. I'm like, yeah. [Laughs.] Yes it does. [Snorts.] It’s because we moved a bunch of shit out the door.

liz migliorelli: [Chuckles.] Yeah. Homes are absolutely animate. And I just finished teaching my ... I have this eight week series called “Tending the Hearth” that's all about like hearth magic and that idea of the domestic being this ample space for relationship to be unseen and also to nourishing ourselves and our families and friends and so on and so forth.

But even the hearth, for example. Like what a potent place of, not just like having this element of fire, but it is this like spirit that I have to tend to throughout the day and be in relationship with throughout the day. It's like a full-time job, I'm like always feeding and talking to it and checking on it and engaging with it in the winter months.

And then I do and then I, it becomes like a flower altar in the summer. But that space or just the cookstove, like the place where I am cooking my meals as this like energetic portal to transformation. Because that's what's happening in the pot is that we're cooking down and boiling and simmering and things become something else and meld together.

And that even through like our little pot of kitchen witchery, there's, it's a great potential for transformation. It can really be that simple. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yes.

liz migliorelli: And profound. And immensely profound. And it, for me, it's been a real anchor - that sort of hearth, hearth work in times of isolation and pandemic life. Like that magic has really felt important for me to ground into as I spend more time at home than I might, of just okay what is alive here?

And how can I like make my home something that I'm in relationship with, not just out of like loneliness, but out of really wanting to cultivate relationship with the place that I live?

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there was a reason that so many people who were not at all interested in kitchen magic prior turned to sourdough making early in pandemic life. [Laughs.] I don't know how many people have maintained their sourdoughs but that was, that just became a whole thing. It's yes, like everybody let's get back to maintaining these living organisms and like feeding ourselves and our families with things that don't require that much, honestly.

Like they require energy and they require tending, but they don't require like all of these different ingredients and things that we don't have access to right now. It's like flour, water, keep at it.

liz migliorelli: Yeeah. And that's also just so profound because you're literally nurturing a relationship with the spores of the place where you are. And the fact that it was such this big boom of people doing this, it's almost like that connection is through that like microbe web, that microbial web.

And so it's just a fascinating, of course we would turn to those fermented little organisms during the time of isolation where we feel so alone and disconnected from our own webs of community. So it's not, sourdough is strangely enough, like one way of tapping into this like wider web of aliveness, which is so cool.

ash alberg: Yeah, absolutely. Sooo, what's your favorite plant?
liz migliorelli: [Laughs.] I don't pick favorites. [Ash chuckles.] I always say

non-monogamous and the plant world.
ash alberg: Like, I love all my children equally.

liz migliorelli: Yeah, I can't speak, I can't pick a favorite, but I, it's, for me, it's really seasonal-based because I really ground myself in the season so much. Like when the wild roses are blooming, I am devotional to the rose and it's like the ecstatic unfurling of rose is felt in my body all of the time.

And it's like, all I can think about. I become possessed by roses. And I'm like, I'm the same way with nettle time. When the nettles come, I’m just like ooh, wholly embracing their magic. And it's almost who's in front of me. [Ash cackles.] As sort of who is, who am I, who's winking at me? Who's like flirting with me a little bit?

But also, yeah, just, there's been plants in my life that have been big teachers, like there's been plants that have absolutely changed my life in really big, dramatic, like lightning bolt ways, but I love those plants ... I love the plants that I also just drink as a tea in a really simple way just as much as those big, knock you on the head type of plant experiences. So I don't have a favorite.

ash alberg: That's fair. [Giggles.]
liz migliorelli: Yeah. [Both chuckle.]

I feel like ask any herbalist and I feel like I'll give you that same answer. [Ash laughs.] It's like it changes. Like how do I feel today? I don't know. Who's doing really good in the garden this year? I don't know. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Totally. It's funny too, because when I think of, I have dreams of so many tattoos that will again, appear on my body post as intense pandemic and also monies, but like it's not, I've never thought of, I think of a lot of plants on my body, but it's never been like, this one plant it's going to be on my body.

And I always find it really interesting when like tattoo artists are like, here's a rose and I'm like, okay, but who else is going to be with the rose?

liz migliorelli: Yeah.

ash alberg: And then where are you going to put it? What's the rest of the garden going to look like?

liz migliorelli: Yeah, it's funny. I only have one like specific plant tattoo and it's rosemary. That's one of the main plants that I am devoted to. I touch it every day. I have a plant on my table that I talk to and I'm very much in love. I have like specific rites that I do with this plant throughout the week, but I love birch just as much.

So it’s, you know, it's ... luckily I am capable of loving devotion to more than one. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Yes, it takes skill.

liz migliorelli: It takes skill, but it's also just who we are and to really, again, presence ourselves in the season of what's around and yeah, I think that the practice of it takes skill, but I also, it's so easy to fall in love with the plants. It feels like one of the easiest things in the world to me, which maybe that's not true for other people, but I like generally find that they make it, they wiggle their way in some way or another.

ash alberg: It's true. It's true. And yeah, the seasonal bit, definitely. I always become so much more aware of the conifers in the winter when like literally everything else is hibernating.

liz migliorelli: Yeah. And you're like, praising them full on because they're holding out and holding so much light for us in times when we really need it and reminding us to breathe deeply and move slowly.

And yeah. It's so ... I'm. Yeah. I have these practices with certain plants that I maintain and I'm devoted to, but I love like just as much being swept off my feet by one in a certain moment.

ash alberg: I love this. I am also really loving just how it's like also very much feels related to how we are in human relationship and just like the romance of it all, whether it's like romance or just like new friendships or whatever. Those ...

liz migliorelli: Yeah.

ash alberg: Your, you have these like deeply cultivated long held like long haul relationships.

And then also just these moments of oh, you're so cute. Hello! [Giggles.] liz migliorelli: Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And maybe it's because of my devotion to Eros that I feel that way. I don't know, but I like, that's an important energy in my life and maybe that's the pull, but I just, it does, it feels like the capacity of relationship with plants is endless and there's no stopping point with it.

It's really, there's no mastery here that I am trying to ... it's really about the deepening of relationship. And when one plant like starts to offer that up as a possibility, I'm like, yes. I'm gonna say yes to it. [Chuckles.] And like still be in deep relationship with the ones that I have been hanging out with for a long time.

ash alberg: Mhm. Mhm. So what's something that you wish you'd been told when you were younger about magic or ritual or witchcraft?

liz migliorelli: I guess ... I just didn't really have examples of it in, within like elders or like within my family structure as much. I think it's really cool when we can find mentors to work with and learn from. Again, not necessarily to exactly copy their practices but just so that ... it's almost just this validation.

And there are certain traditions, of course, where there is immense practice and real steps that need to occur before like major initiations can happen or transmissions can be received. It's not necessarily like a free for all. But I didn't have, besides what I sought out in books. That was my only teacher.

And so I guess I just wish that I had more experiences, more validating experiences from other humans in my life. And I don't think that's, it's not necessarily like a mess--, a specific message that I wish I had received, but because I ultimately am really happy with like how the unfold-- like I'm in love with the unfolding of my relationship to magic and the plants, like everything in due time.

There's no end goal. I'm not like, dang wish I knew that earlier, just because it's, these are things that have happened in the way that they have and I'm still here and I'm still learning and it's still really beautiful and fun to me. But I think just maybe to have other validating examples from other humans doing it so that I just didn't feel so lost at the beginning.

But then again, I feel really sure of my intuition because of that, like that absence of it actually really made my inner knowing and that compass so much stronger. But it would have been nice to have. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Yeah. [Giggles.] liz migliorelli: Yeah. Yeah.

ash alberg: Yeah, that feels, yeah. So what's next for you? This episode is going to come out sometime in the summer. So yeah, based on that kind of what's coming up? Right now we're under a blanket of snow, but ... [Chuckles.]

liz migliorelli: Yeah. In the spring I start really doing some of my like full-time teaching and in some of the programs that I offer but I usually don't start teaching classes in summer just because it's spring is the time to begin and they either go all year or I'm just like too busy in the garden to start new things.

ash alberg: Yes. [Both laugh.]

liz migliorelli: But I am planning. Okay, all things considered, like I'm planning on going and walking the Camino de Santiago, which is this ancient pilgrim trail that goes from France to the Eastern end of Spain. I'm planning on doing that, it’s five weeks, it's five weeks of walking, in September, that's like what I'm hoping to do.

ash alberg: Wow.

liz migliorelli: That's like for me on a personal level, that's what's coming up, but I have this spring, my herbal mystery school starts where we work with one plant a month and just engaging in devotional practice to the plants to build deeper relationships and exploring trance and dream work and art making and invocation writing with the plants.

And then I have, this is the first year that I'm offering a year-long program on flower essences, which is really the main bread and butter of my product line is that it's, I mainly make flower essences. And yeah, I'm working with a group of 15 folks this year on really how to like craft place-based essences and really how to prove them.

Like, how do we know that they're doing what we think they're doing, which is a big thing when you're like making an essence of a plant for the first time where you're like, I don't know what this is.

ash alberg: Did I just put it in water and now I'm just ... [audio distortion.]

liz migliorelli: Yeah. So working on different methods of proving and learning about that but also the class is about honoring the goddess Flora of, who's the goddess of flowers and sex workers and of just everything that is green and flowering and beautiful in the world.

So I dunno, I feel like I'm just stepping into another year of plant devotion, which is really, I just feel very grateful to be able to do that.

ash alberg: I love that. I also, like stuff like that just makes me really grateful living in places that have really obvious seasons. Like sometimes we might want it not quite as obvious, but there's, I always wonder, because ancestrally, same thing where it's like Slavic region, British Isles, like the seasons are very distinct and I don't ... I, yeah, there's nothing in my bones that is familiar with the concept of having less obvious seasons.

And I always wonder about it. But I am very grateful to have a place where it's very clear when you've shifted from one to the other. And you get that kind of that change of pace.

liz migliorelli: Yeah, it feels so important to me. It's interesting. I lived in California for a really long time and I wasn't living in Southern California where it's more drastically the same.

ash alberg: Yes, but you have fire season, which is terrifying. Like when people are like, oh, it's fire season. I'm like, that shouldn't be a thing! That is ... no.

liz migliorelli: Really, and that season just keeps getting longer and longer. But ...

ash alberg: No, thank you.

liz migliorelli: Yeah, what I found when I lived in the Bay, I felt like it was very yeah. It's not as drastic, but there is this interesting, like what it forces you to do, which is interesting, as someone who grew up on the east coast, in the Northeast of the United States, like it's so drastic in New York. [Laughs.] Like the winters are like six feet of snow and there's ice and then like no living plants besides the evergreens until like late April, like sometimes.

ash alberg: I’m very familiar with all of that. [Laughs.]

liz migliorelli: But it's almost like the, when I was in California, there's this subtlety of difference that as someone who is so loving of the seasons, it's, I really, it really forced me to pay attention to these more subtle shifts which when you're on the east coast and or where you live it's this drastic, it's like spring comes and you're feeling this ecstasy in your body where you're like ...

ash alberg: Yes! Literally!
liz migliorelli: Oh my god. So horny for everything. And like everything. It's

this psychedelic experience when spring comes.
ash alberg: Yes, it really is.
liz migliorelli: Because you've been deprived for so long. [Laughs.] ash alberg: Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

liz migliorelli: But it's just like in California, it's like this different, it felt like the subtlety of change, it doesn't hit my physical body in the same way. It wasn't that like big swing of up and down. But this season is still, the season shifting is absolutely still there. It's just that, it's just this more subtle sensation in the body that sort of comes.

ash alberg: Yeah. And that you need tune into more.

liz migliorelli: Yeah.

ash alberg: Which is its own kind of gift.

liz migliorelli: It is. It was, yeah. And in California, stunningly ... year-round, you're just like, oh my god, it’s so beautiful. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: As opposed to this winter, I'm just like, we can be done now. [Snorts.] Like I opened the tour this morning to let Willow out and there was snow coming down and I was like, are you fucking kidding?

I'm done. We're okay. We have enough a record snowfall. We really don't need more. I know we've been in drought for years, but like really this? We're going the other ...? It's too much.

liz migliorelli: It's been a really wild winter of just the deepest cold I've ever felt.

ash alberg: Yes.

liz migliorelli: And that is just that ... being in touch with that kind of cold where it's four degrees for three weeks straight, and it gets even colder at night. I'm like, that my ancestors didn't deal with that kind of cold. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Yeah. There's that too, right? Where you're like, okay. It has been minus 35 for far too long. We can’t actually go anywhere. Even if we would like to, we will get frostbite.

Like Willow, literally she would live outside if I let her. And the last few weeks she's just over it too. She'll, we'll start walking. I'm like, oh, it's only minus 20. We can go.

And I like put her boats ... err, her coat and her boots on. Off we go. And then we walk like maybe half of our usual walk and she turns around and sits until I let her. Yeah. And then I'm like, okay, do you want to go home? And she drags me home. I'm like, oh my god, okay, this is a sign.

liz migliorelli: I know. We all are awaiting the sting of the nettle to get us out again. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Oh man. It's so true. This has been delightful. Thank you, Liz. liz migliorelli: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate being here and

chatting with you.

ash alberg: This has been super fun. We will make sure that folks can find all of your things and probably also stick a link to the different stockists ‘cause you have your tincture line in quite a few shops, which is a really cool. So if folks are looking to support local and support Liz, then there's multiple options for that, which is cool.

But this has been so much fun and hopefully by the time people are listening to this, unless you're in Australia, then the weather’s a little bit more reasonable. I feel like even in Australia, like that winter is not our kind of a winter. I'm like, you're still pretty fucking close to the equator comparatively.

liz migliorelli: Yeeahh. You're still able to garden. To me, that's the like indicator I'm like, are you still gardening mean in winter? ‘Cause if you are, that's not real winter.

ash alberg: It doesn't count. Yeah, exactly. When people are like, oh, it's so cold, here on my cabbages that I literally just pulled out of the patch. I'm like, fuck you.

liz migliorelli: Yeah, must be nice. Must be nice. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Yeah. Whenever people in Vancouver are, “Oh, here I am, it's March and I am harvesting giant armfuls of tansy.” And I'm like, I will see that in September, maybe.

liz migliorelli: Yeah, I know. It's ... yeah. But I have a, I just, it's funny that this episode will be out in the summertime because I know that when it's so hot and humid ...

ash alberg: Ugh, yes. And you’re dreaming ... [Both talking at the same time.]

liz migliorelli: This is the thing about living in a place with the seasons where, my partner always says this. He's always just, this is the thing about living in New England is that you like get into one season and then you start wishing for the next one like almost immediately.

ash alberg: [Laughs.] It’s so true. I'm like fall is honestly my favorite. I'm like, if we could just extend that by ... I don't even need the whole year to be that, ‘cause that would be too much, but like six weeks instead of two weeks of perfect weather would be ideal. Please just give me that much.

liz migliorelli: Yeah. Yeah, it’s yeah. So by the time summer comes around, I know I'll be like, oh, remember those winter days in February when it was so cold and ice was on my nose and it was bright blue out.

ash alberg: It was warm by the fire. Yeah, exactly. [Laugh-snorts.] Oh man. There weren't any bugs.

liz migliorelli: Yeah. I'm so tired of gardening. I'm so tired of being dirty all the time. My back hurts. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Hundred percent. Oh my god. Oh man. That's funny. And so true. liz migliorelli: Yeah.
ash alberg: Okay. This has been delightful.
liz migliorelli: Thank you for having me.

ash alberg: Thank you. Maybe you have to do a follow-up in summer. That would be funny. And then it'll come out in the winter and we’ll ... people will be like, you guys just need to time this better. [Both laugh.]

liz migliorelli: I'm down. [Ash laughs.] There will be like little portals into other times.

ash alberg: Yes, exactly. That's the lovely thing about recordings. It's like time travel.

liz migliorelli: Yeah.

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] You can find full episode recordings and transcripts at snortandcackle.com. Just click on podcast in the main menu. Follow Snort and Cackle on Instagram @snortandcackle and join our seasonal book club with @SnortandCackleBookClub. Don't forget to subscribe and review the podcast by your favorite podcasting platform.

Editing provided by Noah Gilroy, recording and mixing by Ash Alberg, music by Yesable.