our guest for episode 8 is megan samms! megan is a weaver, natural dyer, farmer, gardener, medicine maker, chicken wrangler, puppy parent, artist, apiarist, and generally magical human. they live on their home territory in katalisk sipu in ktaqmkuk with their partner, where they run katalisk sipu gardens, local markets, and currently are in the process of building out their land to support an on-site artist residency. megan is one of my all-time favourite people and a constant inspiration, and also happens to have a very good collection of tattoos. you can find megan online at livetextiles.online and on instagram @livetextiles.

*a note that due to internet connections, the audio for this episode cuts in and out. read the transcript linked below if you are having a hard time making out the recording.

each season we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #snortandcacklebookclub, with a book review by ash and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. this season's #snortandcacklebookclub read is witchcraft in early modern poland 1500-1800 by wanda wyporska.

take the fibre witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz. follow us on instagram @snortandcackle and be sure to subscribe via your favourite podcasting app so you don't miss an episode!

seasons 1-3 of snort & cackle are generously supported by the manitoba arts council.

transcript

snort & cackle - season 1, episode 8 - megan samms

A note about this transcript: Unfortunately, as is often the case with our wily technologies, the audio quality on this podcast recording had a few hiccups. Some words & parts of sentences did not make it out of the audio ether. These have been denoted with [...] wherever needed.

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] Hello, and welcome to the Snort and Cackle podcast. I'm your host, Ash Alberg. I'm a queer fibre witch and hedge witch, and each week I interview a fellow boss witch to discuss how everyday magic helps them make their life and the wider world a better place. Expect serious discussions about intersections of privilege and oppression, big C versus small C capitalism, rituals, sustainability, astrology, ancestral work, and a whole lot of snorts and cackles.

Each season, we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #SnortAndCackleBookClub with a book review by me and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. Our book this season is "Witchcraft in Early Modern Poland, 1500-1800" by Wanda Wyporska. [Music fades out.]

Okay. So I am here with my friend, Megan Samms, and Megan is just an all around amazing everything. Megan is a beekeeper and a weaver and a natural dyer and a bird parent and a puppy wrangler and everything medicine maker. And we first met when Megan was living on Treaty 8 territory up in a fire tower, which was a lot of fun.

And now you're home on a home territory on Ktaqmkuk on the east coast. So welcome. Thank you for being here. [Giggles.]

megan samms: Wela’lin and thank you.
ash alberg: So tell us a bit about you and what you do in the world! megan samms: Okay.

So you already know all of this ... [Ash giggles.] I'm, yeah ... I live in my home territory where I was born and raised. My parents live right across the road. My

home community is called, in English, Codroy Valley, but the Mi’kmaq name is Katalisk Sipu and which ... The meaning is somewhat ... No one's quite sure, but it pertains to eels and eel grass. We have a huge river here full of eels and ...

ash alberg: Delicious.

megan samms: Yeah. And so, I'm a farmer here and craft person. Our farm is called Katalisk Sipu as well. And we have a mixed heritage bird flock, honeybees. So, turkeys, ducks, chickens, all kinds of different breeds of chickens. And we also make a body care line and make herbal remedy and medicine through the farm.

And yeah, so I'm also ... we are a natural dyer. So we grow a lot of our ... of the dyes, all the dyes that I use in my practice here. Previous to that, they used to grow them at the fire tower, as you saw. And then we moved home about a year and a half ago and started the farm here. And I moved my weaving practice home and we built a small off-grid house here.

And also I do a lot of work in the community as well. We are, just over the past few weeks have been organiz-- ... or months really, or maybe almost a year, have been organizing to build up a community service garden, which is not like the typical community garden. But there, there are raised beds.

There will be a greenhouse there and all of the crops harvested, it'll be volunteer oriented for this year anyway. And all of the food raised will just be given to the community. So we'll have produce giveaway days. We'll donate the food to the fire hall cause they do a lot of volunteer fundraising and stuff.

So all the food will just go straight back to right onto people's plates. And that is, we're building that tomorrow. We're building all the beds and stuff tomorrow. So ...

ash alberg: Oh my goodness.
megan samms: Farm work, volunteer work, craft work, and I also am the first

vice president and Newfoundland rep for the Guild of Canadian weavers.

ash alberg: Oh my god. You do so much. I don't think I've ever told you this story, but before we met I went to, I guess it was ... I was on Treaty 6 territory and I arrived and I was doing some work there and everyone kept telling me,

“You need to meet Megan. Megan is this amazing person!” And everybody just has good things to say about you.

And also because you do all of the things and are so knowledgeable across all of the things, I legit thought that I was going to be driving up to see like a 60 something year-old kookum [laugh-talking] and then you like stepped out of your truck, and you were like, we're the same age. And you're covered in more tattoos than I am.

And I was like, ah, okay. [Laughs.]

megan samms: Aww, that's actually bringing tears to my eyes, that’s really nice. [Ash laughs.] I bet it was Maddie that said that actually.

ash alberg: It was literally everybody I spoke to! Her, Kalea, everyone was like, “You need to meet Megan. This is what I've learned from Megan.” Dah dah dah. And I was just like, cool, I'm going to go meet this awesome old kookum. [Laughs.] And it was you!

megan samms: Well I feel like an awesome old kookum inside. ash alberg: Yeah. I feel like it works. Your soul is definitely that.

So yeah, you moved home basically near the start of the pandemic, like the pandemic had ... like it was in play, but you had already planned on moving home, I think, at that point. And the original plan was to like stop in and make visits with folks on the way and then pandemic life, so it was just like book it home.

megan samms: Yes, correct. We made a plan to move home three years ago. Four now, four years ago.

ash alberg: Oh, yeah. Geez.
megan samms: Yeah. Counting the COVID year. ash alberg: Do we count the COVID year?

megan samms: And so, my partner is also called Ash and he was finishing school and I was doing some fun stuff. And while he was finishing that, he's an integrated environmental planner, we ... COVID happened. And, but, we had

... we were living out of a U-Haul. We were like, what are we going to do? Are we going to move home? Do we do this? Do we try to figure something else out?

Like we just weren't a hundred percent sure what now ... what to do. But we, like I said, we were living out of a U-Haul and so we just changed tactic a bit. We put, we got a like a trailer to go behind the U-Haul, put our truck on the trailer, put a bed in the truck, made a little kitchen in the back of the U-Haul, [Ash snorts] invested in some jerry cans and made our way across.

We stopped twice for gas from [rooster crows in the background] Southern BC to Ktamqkuk, Newfoundland and we stopped in ...

ash alberg: How did you ... [Both laugh.] Right, because of the jerry cans. That's how. [Laughs.]

megan samms: Yeah.
ash alberg: I was like, how did you manage that? But then that this makes it so

you're invested in some serious jerry cans, then. [Chuckles.]

megan samms: Yes. Yeah. And we, yeah, we'd made ... we stopped twice. We slept in the truck. We prepped all of our meals before we left. So we literally just had to pull over somewhere and fire up the camp stove. And yeah.

ash alberg: Oh my god. That's intense. And also probably like the only safe story I have heard of people having to travel any sort of distance during COVID. [Laughs.] Like, if anyone's going to be prepared to do that, it'll be you two. [Laughs.]

megan samms: It was pretty fun actually! It wound up being, that was our ... I think that was my 9th or 10th drive across, across. And it was I think it was Ash’s like 13th drive across the country.

ash alberg: Oh my god.

megan samms: Working on the tower, there's so much ... you get every winter off. So we would go and do our rounds and our visiting, like every autumn there or whatever.

And, but that was so fun. It was just us and the dog. And we pulled into these places that we wouldn't have, like next to lakes, and it was cold and snowy and it was just like ...

ash alberg: [Chuckles.]
megan samms: It was a good time. Yeah.

ash alberg: Nice. And now you're making really solid progress on the homestead. There's multiple buildings that are going up. The residency, which I am so stoked about. And I don't actually know if I'm going to bother applying or if I'm just going to appear and be like, it's okay. I'm just going to sleep in the greenhouse. [Both laugh.]

I don't care who else is here. I've just arrived. Hello!

megan samms: Totally fine! Yeah. I should have a side note for the artists in residency that the artists in residency is intended for artists in Ktaqmkuk but anyone in my personal circle just come anyway [laughs.] Anytime of year. Yeah.

ash alberg: Oh, man. Yeah, you live in some really beautiful land. I'm really excited to talk to you about these things because we, I feel like we talk about them all the time anyway, so I'm just excited for other people to hear our nerdy chats. But tell me a bit about how ritual and magic and all of that plays into your life. Plants, everything. [Giggles.]

megan samms: Okay. Yeah, it's so interesting. ‘Cause it's almost like it's either unconscious or subconscious for me. Like I don't, I wouldn't say outright that I identify as a witch, I would ... I don't think I would say I'm a witch, but I do feel something like that.

And I do know my mum does and my grandfather and my grandparents ... Yeah. My grandmother was always called a witch and I have like great grandmothers who were called witches and by other people, not ... I don't know. I don't necessarily know if they identified as witches, but they have reputations. And this side of the river, the north side of the river, where I'm from and where all my people are from, the Mi’kmaq women here were known for their weaving and their witchery.

And so even if I don't necessarily say I'm a witch, I ... it's definitely part of, part of my, what grew me up, and so I ... that, in that way, is undeniable. But yeah.

So ritual, huge, and woven into like daily life, ‘cause we worked from home, I worked from home, so I, I eat when I'm hungry, sleep when I'm tired and basically follow my, my daily rhythms and seasonal rhythms, big time seasonal more than daily, but especially in medicine making. And I tend to ... so I plant by the moon, I make soap by the moon and there's also a practical measure there because I don't have to remember when the, when I planted it, how long the soap’s been curing for, if it's a new moon, it's ready.

ash alberg: Nice. I love that.

megan samms: I think ... I definitely believe there's like a tangible impact on the effect of like hardiness and like depth of medicine that comes from that. But I also ... it's also ... no need for writing that down [...].

ash alberg: [Laughs.] So good. And also, I should say your, just in general, everything you make is magic. Like I've got the cloth from you, I've gifted cloth from you multiple times. And then like my fir sachets are just like scattered.

But the herbal, the herbal remedies that you make, like your soap is some of the longest lasting soap I have used and the lip balm is ... it's literally, it's like on the little stand outside of my bathroom because my bathroom is a clusterfuck. But it's, it's right there. So I like do whatever I need to do in the bathroom. Then I like walk across the little hall I put on my lip balm and off I go for the rest of the day and I'm set. Yeah, it's very good stuff.

megan samms: Thank you. Yeah, but the, actually the long lasting of the soap is because most of them are made with sea water. As a tie to place, obviously, but also the salt water in there keeps the bar really harder, like hard. Yeah.

ash alberg: That's so good. Is there ... like I we're using the word witch, which is the English word. I am curious about whether that word and or the translation of it, or one of the translations of it, apply in your like mother language or if Mi’kmaq has like a different word that is used to ... like between like healers versus ... like doing curses and hexes is a very different kind of magic at times.

And white people encountering that like intuitive magic are shitty at times and may prescribe it to have different things. And so may use a different word that doesn't ... like unpack all of that for me, if you want to, please. [Laughs.]

megan samms: That's a good question. I don't know, but now I want to go to my language teacher and figure that out and go to all my language resources. ‘Cause yeah, I don't know.

But chances are there's diff-- ... like, based on my minimal knowledge of my language, that they're very specific. There's not a lot of filler words. [Birds sing in the background.] And, so there's very specific words for specific things and yeah.

Although there's a lot of expression of animacy. So all the colors, for example, don't translate directly to just a color like they do in the English language. The more literal translation is it is in the act of being red.

So the word red is megwe’g, and megwe’g translates to “it is being red.” So even just the language in itself is it a bit of a magical thing, which shapes like worldview and perspective. But I would wager that there's different words for like more of a healer, but medicine too.

Like the way it is in the Western or like call ... call ... This world is, yeah, it's not as common knowledge. And I think I feel that in previous years, like medicine and healing was a little more accessible in common. Most people have some basic working knowledge of remedy and healing.

ash alberg: Yeah. And the plants, it's so interesting. The more I learn about plants, especially here, but also I found that plants in general are more like strips around the world. Like the further away you get from the equator versus the closer you get to the equator, like if you look at it as a horizontal strip, there's so much overlap.

So like the plants here. Yes, There's some difference, but there's also like literal overlap from plants here on Turtle Island to plants in Iceland to plants in like Northern Europe and Russia and north Asia as well, a little bit. And then there's also a lot of like cousin plants. But it's so interesting how, like even the plants are, I say, even the plants are smarter.

And like plantain and nettles and yarrow grow next to one another, because if you sting yourself with the nettle, you're going to want to make a quick poultice.

And like the fresh tips of the nettle can actually become their own remedy. They grow together as we need to help each other.

And if you know what you're looking for, then here's the remedy [...]

Yeah. It's there is definitely something that is lost nowadays, particularly for folks who are descendants of colonizers have been colonized ... [...] the same connections with traditional knowledge and ancestral knowledge in terms of if you're in an urban area there are plenty of plants that are there for you to do first aid just like ... [...]

megan samms: Mhmm. Mhmm. And there's so much to be gained too, [rooster crows] from, like you said, was a kind of like band or belts of plants around the globe. Like the boreal, for instance, like circumpolar and we share the same plants and animals as like [...] and Norway, all these countries that seem very far away, but I'd love to think about the overlap of plant knowledge and application and yeah.

ash alberg: Magic in general, how does it apply to your business and maybe expand a little bit more on your business? Because I think also what I really love about your practice in general is the fact that you have like very strong boundaries around your work.

And you're like, I have no desire to only do one thing. I love doing all of these different things. I will make time and prioritize all of these different things. And I will make sure that [...]

And it takes so much like joy and inspiration from that and there's points where I'm like, fuck, I don't have time for this ... [...] [Laughs.] ... but especially with your business, because you do run a business, and you also do so much work within your community. It's like this really beautiful [...] ... as we can get under capitalism, balance between making extra so that you can have profits and have access to more [...]

Also making space for doing all of the things, making all of the things and flowing with your body. That is a fuck of a lot more [...] to manage.

megan samms: [Chuckles.] Wow. I feel so flattered by that question! [Both laugh.]

I guess, I don't know where to start. Style. So that's my textile business. I’m starting to think I think I need to figure something else out that brings Katalisk Sipu Gardens and Live Textiles more visibly together because in practice they are one in the same. Like I said, grow all the dye stuff here. And textiles are inherently agricultural. [...] that very well, like there without farming and agriculture, how it's practiced whether, like here we practice [...] agriculture and it's very small scale and pace turned up the land and now it's all back-seeded with rye. Anyway.

I guess, I don't know how to answer that question, Ash. I like, I have ... it's important to me that morals and ethics and priorities are embedded in how I do business. And I don't want to do business in the way that it's taught in the Western world. I don't think that is the be all end all only way to do things.

And then I have to think about how I do I want to do things and then [...] on that way, but I had a really good teacher who one time said to me that ... because there's always the question of funding. When you're talking about small business there’s always a question of funding. And I have been extremely privileged to be able to work on the fire tower and have all my time to work on my business and have like huge gardens there that could like, let me dive into dye pots and figure it all out and to have some funding to build my businesses organically.

This teacher said to me, “No funding? Do it anyway.” And that is sometimes easier said than done, but there's usually there's usually a way to figure it out, and I really like. Anytime I find myself thinking like, “Oh, I don't know if I can,” I’m like, “Yeah, I can. There's gotta be a way to do that.”

And it's usually reaching out and like poking the right people and pulling the right strings and just being like, “Hey, what are you ... You're here, let's do this together” or something. And I have a lot of collaborations on the go all the time too and that's part of the reason why, because a strong business supports a strong business support. There's really enough room for toxic competition in my world.

ash alberg: [Laughs.] I love that. Let's actually talk about some of those collaborations because folks who ... there may be folks who are familiar with you and there may be folks who are familiar with a lot of the folks you do work with, including Custom Woolen Mills, which is ... both are [...] and you’ve done a lot of work with them over the years and set up some really incredible projects, including shifting all the [...] in the wool ... They've shifted everything to natural dyes or are in the process of shifting to just natural dyes

which I think is so fucking cool. Especially at the size that they are as a mill, like it's a decent sized operation.

megan samms: Yeah.
ash alberg: And yeah, you've very much like very specific leading hand in a lot

of these things.

megan samms: Yeah. So that in particular I had been knitting with Custom yarn for about 10 years, and then I was in Calgary and I was like, I'm just going to go to the mill, I’m going to go meet these guys. So I went there and I started chatting with Maddie and I’m sure I chatted her ear off. And she was like, “Whooo is this? Go away!” [Both laugh.] She was trying to work.

ash alberg: Yeah. That is still the shortest interview I have ever done and it’s like a very complete interview. [Chuckles.] She’s just like extremely to the point and is like, “I have a lot to do. What’s your question? Here’s the answer. Cool. Off we go.” And she's like the kindest person but also very good with boundaries, just like in a very different kind of way.

megan samms: Mhmm. Yeah, she's one of my nearest and dearest and closest friends.

I just, yeah, I love the shit out of Maddie. [Laughs.] And I was just taking up a lot of her time [Ash laughs.] And then ... but by the end of the conversation she was like for ... somehow she invited me to come be the first artist in residence there and I was like, yep, on it, no problem, I'll be there.

So I think I finished up the fire season and went to the mill in October months ...

ash alberg: Mhmm.

megan samms: ... stayed for a month and I wove blankets, big coverlets or big woolen, hemp, and organic coverlets; and dyed something like ... I dunno how many colors it was. Like 90 colors or something.

ash alberg: Holy shit.
megan samms: It was ton. Yeah.

Just like, I foraged around the mill and the dye garden was the first or second year of the dye garden and set up a couple indigo, different indigo vats in the boiler room ‘cause it's super hot in there. And yeah.

And just the month that we were there, like Maddie and I, it was like the best month and also by the end of it I think we were both exhausted because we worked super hard every day. I worked in the mill too, ‘cause I wanted to get hands on. So I did everything.

I washed, like I worked in the wash area, sorting fleeces and taking them out and drying them. I worked through the picker and the twister and ... or, not the twister, the spinner. And did all kinds of things in there. And also made all those colors.

Oh yeah, and then we stayed up every night to ... every night we stayed up so late and we're like, what if we could do this? And then it just comes back to, “you just do it,” you just do it. And so we did ... the first project we really wanted to do was the natural dye club. We did that one right away.

I think we launched that one. I can't remember if it was that autumn, like for that holiday season or the next autumn, but it was pretty quick. Like we figured out how we wanted to do it and it's so we did that one. And then the next thing we did was Field and Forage, which is the seasonal dyeing and that's all dyed in the skein every fall from the harvest. So it's more of an artisanal line and it's a conversation piece about agriculturally-based textiles and Canadian textiles and fibersheds and all of that.

And then the third thing, which was the biggest fish to fry was dyeing a hundred pounds of fleece in the loose and mordanting it, scouring it, mordanting it, dyeing it in the big milk tank, which is where they do all their dyeing anyway, but it is different process.

ash alberg: Yeah. [Megan chuckles.] And the yarn comes out beautifully! That's the bit that I am perpetually impressed by is just the fact that the fleeces aren’t like ... It’s not like all of the breeds are the most [...] breeds, but that process is like about as like tricky of a process as you're going to get, as far as working with natural dyes.

Especially just like doing an indigo dip, right, where it's like you are applying heat, you are like needing to move around. So there is some agitation, like there's ... it's ... everything about it could go wrong.

megan samms: So Maddie is a genius for ... on the mill side, right? Just had to put a piece of wood in the stove. She's a genius on the production end of things, and milling and heathering and creating a palette with heathers and all of that. Like she can, she just, it's all very second nature to her as, born and raised, grew up at the mill.

So she's very ... it's her other language. And she's very process-oriented and very like. One step ...

ash alberg: Yep.

megan samms: One step at a time and do them in order and all of this. And so between her ... and we also work, both of us work really hard at the things we love, and really invest a lot of like intellectual energy and bodily energy into them.

So it's and then I, yeah. I just, I had been dyeing for quite a while at that point and had the knowledge of the dye plants. And ... but we ... so for the production line - we call it the production line, but it's the natural dyed mule spinner - we use, we use extracts so that it works more efficiently for dying a hundred pounds of fleece at a time. Which is “fill this greenhouse.”

ash alberg: Yeah. megan samms: Yeah.

ash alberg: Yeah. Just thinking about the amount of tansy that you would need in a pot to do that. It's like, it's not feasible and it's also not something at this point that is easily doable in our, any of our fibersheds. Which is a conversation that we have on an ongoing process, but it's ... yeah, like the amount of raw dye material that you need to dye that level, like there, there does need to be a separation between commercial and personal practice as far as natural dyeing goes within Canada at least, I think.

megan samms: Yeah so that's, and that's why we did the Field and Forage and the mule spinner line because the Field and Forage was the artisanal one, was

the conversation one, like we grow everything really. You're paying $30. I think it's $30? I forget. We started at $30 a skein but now I forget the price.

It’s still not even quite a living wage for that yarn as .., [both talk at the same time.]

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah, no. Barely. It's like, at Custom Woolen, so it's their own costs, then it covers it, but not quite. And it is on the lower end of pricing as far as like properly done, natural dyed yarns are. It's yeah, it's probably the most accessible that is also done properly, I would say. [Cackles.]

megan samms: Yeah.

Yeah. And one of the big things we should talk about too, when we first released Field and Forage, and when we do every year, is reconsidering your application of color and do you need ... do I need a knee-length cardigan that's all color, color work? And ... or do I embrace sheep shades and do color work more sparingly and appreciate it for the work that I ... that has truly gone into it?

Like the true cost of it is off the charts. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yes. Yes. And that's, it's a bit like, it's so funny because every once in a while I get somebody who is like, they’re a yarn person, but they are ... they’re ... But they are not a dyer. Definitely not a natural dyer and even sheep shades. It's those [...] who are separated from the agricultural process and the labor process of producing, which is fine.

We all probably started there realistically, unless you like, actually grew up on the land. And you get people who are like, “Oh yeah, it's little bit pricier, but I guess if you can make it go of it ...” It's like, you have no fucking clue.

Like the only reason that I am able to wholesale is because like Maddie's mill producing costs because they are using older equipment and so don't have the equivalent of a house mortgage to pay off in equipment costs, and the production size of the old mill equipment is significant, so they can keep their costs per item down. That's literally the only reason that I am able to wholesale things because when you then add on that, the cost of just working the natural dyes on their own, nevermind the labor.

Like the labor doesn't actually come into the equation because it's ... I actually worked it out recently because unfortunately I'm going to be hiring sooner rather than later, and if nothing goes wrong, you're looking at a minimum of five to six hours of labor per skein. And yes, if you’re doing sweater batches it's ... but also not because you still have to rinse every skein individually, you still have to twist every skein individually.

Like it's the steps that are involved, the cost of just the materials between the scouring and the mordant. And if you're using extra mordants and then if you're purchasing extract, there’s that. If you're not purchasing extract, there's the time that was taken either for foraging or for harvest and growing, and then cost of your wool or your yarn.

And it's like it. Yeah. It's doable for sure. And it also is something that remains inaccessible to a lot of folks, which is also why I think it's important that like more people learn how to naturally dye so that if they want to, then they can, and where we can connect them, then, with, whoever their local fibershed players are.

Or if they want to be recycling from and sweaters and things like that, if you have the skillset combined, then it can be very accessible, right? If you made a pot of French onion soup, you have onion skins, you’re good to go, but if you’re going to be doing it on a commercial level, it does quickly become inaccessible for a lot of folks. And that is a tricky balance to figure out how do you navigate that and still feel good about the work that you're doing and putting out into the world?

One of the things that I really love in particular about the cloth is how you use color very sparingly. And it really like takes a focal point when it is in use.

And you're very clear about what people's expectations should be as well, right? If you're using a dish cloth, wiping up spaces, sometimes that means don't be surprised when the lemon changes the color of your cloth in the naturally dyed locations, because that's just ... the pH has shifted and that's just what happens with it.

But I really love the way that you have figured out how to [...] the natural dyes and especially when you're growing all of yours and like processing at home and all of that, like you figured out a way of being able to still maintain that magic and also, keep your own like costs of doing the work down on the material side of things, because the labor that is involved in your cloth is ...

that's non-negotiable. It is hand-woven by you on your loom that is not mechanical, like ...

megan samms: yeah. And it's the labor is one thing, but the other part that I consider too, like, we start seeding in February.

ash alberg: Yeah.
megan samms: To dye in October. ash alberg: Yeah.

megan samms: So it's not just ... it's a long cultivated relationship. And then we save the seeds and start all over again a few months later. So it's not a, it's not as instantaneous as like just [...] a cloth and using that cloth.

It's such a process and it's sooo special. Like it's so ... color is so precious and yeah. Yeah. And, and that's why I used it so sparingly, just because ... It's like the other thing too, is it's such a snapshot of a time and a place and terroir and I don't want to use it all up in one go. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah. I love that so much. It's just, it totally put my mind sideways on a project that I'm working on that will involve [...]

I don’t know if I told you about the plan for the next book that we're going to be shooting at SJ’s, but either we'll then just come north to come see you or you can come down [...] because it's going to be [...].

It’s a giant “fuck you COVID.”
megan samms: There's a lot more people that are vaccinated and there’s ...

ash alberg: Yes. I feel like also on the east coast folks are just better [cackle-snorts]. Just in general but also they do a better job of caring for one another. Like here it's like, yeah. It's uncomfortable. Nobody likes being in fucking lockdown [...] do it because the sooner that we do it and take it seriously, the sooner we can lift things back up. Like I'm just so annoyed looking at Nova Scotia now and thinking, I wish I was still living in Nova Scotia because you literally ... I mean, here on treaty one and just in general in Manitoba, we haven't come out of any waves. We’ve just stayed at ...

megan samms: Yeah.

ash alberg: ... whatever the new level is. But we have our latest surge at the same time that then Halifax had one. And Halifax, and Nova Scotia in general, was able to actually track it back because they've been doing testing and tracking. And then as the cases spiked, because that is the nature of this virus, they fully went on lockdown and when people fucked up and weren't paying attention or taking it seriously enough, they doubled the fines immediately. They actually, they followed through with things and people got it.

And yes, we'll always have one or two people who are like, fuck this. I'm going to do what I want. But as a whole, I find some of the east coast people are better at caring for everyone rather than just being like, “What's my little unit doing and am I ... as long as my little unit is doing what I want, then that's fine.”

And it is annoying to me currently living somewhere where that’s ... people aren’t caring for others as well as we could. And then we also ...

megan samms: And I think the median age might have something to do with that too. Like we have a lot of elders on the east coast.

ash alberg: Yes.
megan samms: And also I would wonder if there's a bit of a ... I wonder if

we're just more natural homebodies around here? [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yeah. There's definitely that. I feel like part of the problem too, is that this latest surge came as the weather started getting nice and like on the Prairies, you're a homebody in the winter and then the summer comes and you're like, “Fuck, I'm coming out! Let me out!” And then yeah, the east coast, it's slightly more mild.

To be honest, I feel like winters on the east coast are worse to my body than they are on the Prairies just because of the dampness, like my bones are ... But it's not like it's -40 for two weeks at a time. You're like, okay, it's -10, I guess I'll step outside. Don't necessarily appreciate the freezing ...

megan samms: Windy.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. The wind is there, sometimes there’s the freezing rain. For the most part it's ... you can deal with it.

megan samms: Yeah.

ash alberg: Yeah, that's so funny. Tell me a bit about the gardens. I want to know how that's going and like what stage you're at and what the goal is for like the next stage. Hopefully soon people will be able to come and visit. So what can people expect when they come to see you?

megan samms: Katalisk Sipu Gardens is sorta ... we had a soft opening. We organize makers’ and gardeners’ markets here and they’re four times a year and we move them around the community. So the spring and summer ones are outside ... or, sorry, the autumn and summer ones are outside. The winter one’s in our wetland ... was in our wetlands building cause we're a bird sanctuary here and preserved wetland.

And the spring one was also inside. So we move them around different community halls and raise money for different organizations like the food bank, the kids’ library, the breakfast program at the school.

So Katalisk Sipu Gardens did a soft opening in ... like relative to those, that market schedule. We started with cut flowers, eggs and our body care line, which is soap, infused-oils, like the fir ... we do a fir body bath and hair oil. Also there's about half a dozen soaps, lip balm, three or four different salves. In the, in the winter months we do a scrub or, sorry, a soak, like a bath salt. And in the spring we do scrub because you want to get all that winter again off. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yes.

megan samms: Yeah. And Also a couple of solid perfumes and we have a couple other herbal scents, and then a couple other apothecary items coming out over the summer, but we'll also have a grand opening at the end of this month where people can come to the farm, build a little farm stand right out here in front of the greenhouse.

ash alberg: Love it.

megan samms: And the people will be able to come in, buy their produce, eggs, cut flowers, body care. We'll also do weekly produce pickup boxes and so you

can just come, and the box will be filled with whatever is in flesh. So you might have a ton of tomatillos some day, ton of basil. Other days it'll be just a mix, like a small assortment of everything. And you can, and people will be able to add on, their eggs or body care or honey or candles or whatever we have, whatever they want. Textiles.

So that's, the grand opening will be at the end of the month, the pickup boxes won't start a little later in the season ‘cause we're ... everything's germinated and growing, and ... but it ... we're ... it takes a little longer in Ktaqmkuk than in other places. We won't be harvesting for a little while yet.

ash alberg: Yup. Yeah.

megan samms: But at that, the development of ... so we do everything ... we have one storage crop field. We don't, we did till it last year and there's pigs, been pigs on it. And it's back planted now because there's, there's ... It's very clay and a lot of ochre.

And so we need to add some more organic matter and next year it'll be storage crops, but otherwise all of our other crops are in big raised beds with a, that we built with lumber from a mill right here in the valley. So my mum works with us too [clears throat] and it's easy on her body and on my body and Ash’s body working these taller beds.

ash alberg: Yes.

megan samms: And the artists in residence, we’ll start that in autumn 2022.

And it'll be in the autumn because we can feed the person straight out of the garden and off the farm quite easily. Yeah, the development of the gardens is crucial to the craft aspect for sure.

ash alberg: That's amazing. It just seems like such a little dream life. I'm so excited about it. I'm also very ... I'm just going to show up and be like, “Hello! Here's my plate. I will help cook. [Giggles.] I will even go and gather things by myself. I will try to stop my dog from eating tomatoes off the vine.”

That is a thing that she has started doing. She's learned. She loves tomatoes, but she's also just learned that they're very easy to pull off of the plant. So she'll just walk along and just snack on them. [Laughs.]

megan samms: That's good. We had a dog that, he was my guy. He had a, he was missing all of his front teeth except one canine. [Ash laughs.] He would walk around, he was this old Siberian, red Siberian, two colour eyes, just beautiful guy. But he would roam around and take one bite out of things.

ash alberg: [Ash laughs.] What a shit!

megan samms: [Laughs.] He'd take one bite out of a winter squash, which would scab over of course, and have a perfect bite mark taken out of it. [Ash laughs.] And one bite out of the zucchini, one bite out of a tomato. [Both laugh.] Yeah.

ash alberg: What a shithead! He's, “I'm just gonna eat my salad in pieces. I don't need the whole thing.”

megan samms: Yeah. Deconstructed salad.

ash alberg: Oh my goodness.

megan samms: And he loved every vegetable too, so yeah, like no vegetable ...

ash alberg: The whooole garden. [Megan laughs.] Oh man. That's so funny. Dogs are the best. How is your pupparoo?

megan samms: She's good! Ash, she's two and a half now.

ash alberg: What?!

megan samms: Yeah! She turned two in February and so she's big. She's 85 pounds. She's really good. She's got ... She never did get used to growing up with chickens, even though she spent her whole life around them.

ash alberg: Literally her whole life around them. [Chuckles.] megan samms: Yeah. Yeah. And she's just bloodthirsty.

We do have about an acre enclosed for the birds. There's a cattle fence and then a chicken wire fencing, just because she would just go through them all. [Ash cackles.] Wouldn't even eat them, just kill ‘em.

ash alberg: Play with them. Oh my god. That’s so funny ‘cause I remember meeting her when she was what? I guess ...

megan samms: Oh, not old. A couple months.

ash alberg: Yeah. She was like still tossing her cheese when she was behaving herself in the kitchen. But yeah, she was just so focused on the chickens when she was outside, she was like, I'm gonna get them! [Both giggle.]

And they were like about as big as her at that age. [Chuckles.]

megan samms: Exactly. No fear at all about them. Yeah. Even the roosters. No fear.

ash alberg: That's so funny. I feel like Willow won't be like that. I, yeah, I gotta do some more farm practice, but also, I don't know about that. We’ve got to [...] some other general practice before we are let loose on any sort of farm. And by “let loose” I mean [...] so that when [...] she comes back when she's told, instead of after she electrocutes herself.

Yep.
megan samms: Yes. Yeah. Reier learned that one the hard way a couple times.

ash alberg: This is the thing though, it takes a couple of times for them to figure it out. Like it's not just like the first time like that [...] was really uncomfortable. “That hurt me. Maybe I shouldn't do that again.” They're like, “I'm going to try one more time. Just let me see.” [Both chuckle.]

megan samms: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
ash alberg: In a few months. Let me just see if it's still the case. [Megan

chuckles.] Oh man. They're so good though.

So, what is something that you wish you'd been told about magic or ritual when you were younger?

megan samms: [Sighs.] I don't know how to answer that question either, but a lot probably. A lot. Especially, yeah ... especially here in [...]. We’re in a different situation than then the rest of Canada, because like Newfoundland

joined the Confederation in 1949. And so when Newfoundland became a part of Canada, the new province was excused from the Indian Act.

And so we ... there was no one with status. Everyone was declared extinct. ash alberg: [Gasps.] What the fuck?
megan samms: Yeah. Exactly what the fuck.

And so there's a lot of hushed conversation around a lot. A lot of things includ-- and I'm linking that to magic because like traditional practice and ancestral practice and ancestral, like, spiritual connection to a place and a ... and your indigeneity being very much part of a place was ignored or talked very ... about very hushed, so I feel like there was a lot that was just missed out on because of that.

And there's a lot of other ... and I think like the witch community really relates to that too, because of all of the heinous crimes committed against witches in the past, like it's a very similar story actually.

Yeah and Newfoundland is very ... is just coming around to being proud of, or I should say, people indigenous to Newfoundland are just coming around to being ... talking very openly and proudly. And it's in my lifetime that that's the case. So ...

ash alberg: Mhmm.

megan samms: When I was a kid, my mum always said she was a witch and she had me in the garden working with herbs and working with plants, like when I was very small, but there wasn't like larger scale conversation about it, just as a safety measure.

And I don’t ... you can't blame anybody for that. But yeah. I certainly wish there were, there was just more open and big conversation. And just daily life, just like the conversation part of it, because I feel like some of the practice of, especially, working with plants was very daily life. But that, so that's very precious of course.

But open, openly talking about and educating and learning from each other wasn't as much part of daily life just because of yeah, the safety aspect. And I just, I hope that ... so my friend's little kid the other day was talking about ...

Just plainly, like it was ... And it wasn't to her. It was no, not an unusual thing to ask.

She was just talking about witches. And then in the same day she was talking about like bisexuality and ... and she's seven, and it was like easy for her to be talking about this stuff. And when I was growing up, it was like, gotta wait until the time is right to bring these things up, you know? [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah. I feel like there's ... it's so reassuring and refreshing and I still have so much fear for the young ones cause I know it's certainly not everybody who is as open to any of these conversations. But it's, the youth are just a perpetual sign of hope. And in particular around things like witching and queerness and saying like ... their two spiritness for the Indigenous kids and there's ... it's just, there are more of them.

I remember, this was like six or seven years ago now, teaching at a queer youth conference that was like a national one. And the number of kids who came in from remote communities and they were like, “I'm going to this.” And some of them, some of them, their parents didn't actually know what they were attending, right?

The, their educators helped them in getting to this thing that was a really safe, important space for them by lying to their parents. [Chuckles.] And I think that there are more than sometimes where that isn't a necessity for kids. And I think that's where, like educators and adult allies can be really fucking important for kids.

But just ... I had a class of ... half of my kids were from different reserves from around the country. And it was incredible because they were all queer and also like really deeply rooted in their home communities. And for me as a settler, and especially the way that I like engage with a lot of these kids, I'm like, very direct eye contact and really I'm very physical about the way, especially when I'm teaching like theater and things, which was what we were doing.

And these kids were like, did not make eye contact because it's a sign of respect, which I was like, oh shit! No, Ash, adjust the way that you're teaching.

But it was so encouraging to see these kids who, I'm thinking like, okay, 10 years earlier, when I was your age, nobody fucking talked about this. There's three or four kids that were willing to come out, and I was the only one where I

came out and it was okay. And I didn’t get bullied out of school during the process.

So it feels encouraging. And also we're certainly not there yet. [Laughs.] megan samms: No, yeah. Yeah, but it's, it is definitely encouraging. Yeah. ash alberg: Especially for the kids coming up.

megan samms: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm really, like, I guess in our house too, like my, my ... I have a mom and a dad and they are together still, which is great. And there was never, there was never much importance put on gender and that's something I am really grateful for that I did experience because you asked the question what had you, “what did you wish you had been told?” but this is something I was happy that it was never, I, there was never any gendered activity in our household growing up.

There still isn't. Like, all the tasks are very much shared, like both in their household and in our household. And it's almost not ... it's not even a thought like, what ... or like a gender identification or something that, especially in a very small rural community, it's, it feels extra important that I don't, I never in my ... yeah. I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say obviously, but ... [both laugh.]

ash alberg: I feel like I know exactly what you’re saying. I don’t ... megan samms: Yeah! [Laughs.]

ash alberg: I feel like for the folks who are listening to this who are not queer, which I know as I say that a lot of ... there's probably a minority of people. Maybe we'll end up ... but I feel like probably most folks who are going to listen to this ... or if they're not queer right now, by the time they’re done listening they’ll be like “oooohh.” [Snorts.]

But yeah, no, I hear you. There's something really beautiful and unfortunately, not all that common at this point in time, in not having gender assigned in even just a light way where it's, “Okay, like, gender roles don't matter! But also we’re going to like, ‘you do this and you do that and this is your parameter and we're sticking with that.’” There's something that is like really fucking subversive and really important about just like letting that, that be.

I have this collection of queer children's books like, like picture books for small children. I think they're all written by folks of color and have like different characters and different language bases and things like that. And all of them are about queer identities, particularly like genderqueer identities or queering of gender identities. And it's just, anytime my friend’s kids are asking questions or like my friends are like, “Do you have anything?”

I'm like, here's this stack. I am happily indoctrinating all of the toddlers around me. [Snort-laughs.]

megan samms: Yeah.

ash alberg: ‘Cause yeah, it's important. And it's ... I feel like the gender binary is also something that is very heavily attached to and part of colonialism and the like, violence of white supremacy in particular and Christianity in particular. And it's a lie, but it's also a very deeply embedded lie.

And it's it's a partial lie, right? Because a number of folks then, that is actually their identity. Not that that means that their identity is wrong or not real, it's just that those are two options of many. And also, depending on your ancestral lineage and your ancestral ties, then there are even more options depending.

And also we're infinite. And like kids are constantly coming up with new things. Like when you talk to teenagers today and they're like, I'm this! And I'm like, I have no fucking clue what that word is! Good for you!

megan samms: Yeah. So it's going to change again. ash alberg: Yes!

megan samms: And so in that way, like you just said, it's very important. and it is, but on the flip side, it's almost just not.

ash alberg: Yes! A hundred percent. [Both laugh.]

megan samms: Let's just move! Maybe I'm experiencing some gender fatigue too. Could be.

ash alberg: Yeah. God. Gender fatigue. I love that. I'm going to borrow that phrase now. [Cackles.] When people are like, “What’s going on?” “Gender fatigue.”

The whole thing encapsulates everything or many things at least. Fuck. Oh god.

So what is next for you? We've talked about it, but is there anything in particular that you want to be like directing folks to or are really excited about either like with the gardens and with your work or just in general with life?

megan samms: I think those ... I think we did ... like right now, I’m ... totally have the focus honed on what's in front of me, which is getting that farm stand built. [Both laugh.] [...]

megan samms: We're building the loom shed as well, which is going to be right across their driveway from the market. That ... in autumn 2022 we can launch the artist in residence. And that is, going back to the teacher who told me, “Just do it,” that is ... We have taken, received some small donations through my website, but that is fully motivated and funded and built and dreamed up by us. Like it's, we didn't search out any financial support or any other support for it. We're just doing it, on, on the advice of that teacher. [...]

I wish I had an example of growing up that's ... So, Newfoundland too, is ... we export so much of our youth. Everyone leaves. Like everyone's leaving all the time here and that's, that's the normal thing to do. Even when I was growing up, like teachers verbatim said, “What are you going to do after school? ‘Cause you better go, like you better go and figure it out,” you know?

And when [...] they come back and that's an over arching attitude I found, which is changing very slowly in that the youth need to be encouraged to stay home. And I really wish there was someone here that said, “Yeah, you can, you can be a bit of a weirdo and you can make your artwork and make a life.”

And ... just do, just, you can do what you want to here. You don't have to go away to do it. And so it is really important to me to get those projects done because a lot of my friends here have young children and they're going to see it and there might ... they’re probably not going to be into what we're doing [both laugh] but the principle's going to be, “You can do what you want here.”

ash alberg: Yes.

megan samms: So that is what is going on here is thinking way long view, continuing to work on the makers’ and gardeners’ markets and the market garden here.

[Both talk at the same time.] [Both laugh.]
ash alberg: That’s also so funny. They’re like, “us too, us too!” megan samms: Yeah, where are the youth?! [Both laugh. Ash snorts.] ash alberg: I love that.

megan samms: And I think that’s the magic, you know, like ... is like being involved at the very same time in the past and in a few generations ahead and like dissolving what is time and thinking about how you ... like reframing how you think of time and what work is and all of that.

ash alberg: I love that. That's like a whole other podcast topic on its own.

[Both laugh heartily.]

megan samms: That’s a whole other podcast theme!

ash alberg: Yeah! [Laughs.] Oh no. There needs to be like a Snort and Cackle Part II: What is Time? [Both full-belly laugh.]

I have so many opinions! It does not exist!

megan samms: Yeah, that's gonna be a six hour podcast or ... I mean, what is six hours, Ash? [Joking.] [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Exactly! It doesn’t exist so it’s not ... [cackles and snorts.] And on that note!

megan samms: Yeah let's just get a little weirder before we cut off here. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Now everybody knows like, “And these are the rabbit holes that they go down.” [Both laugh.] Ooohhh fuck. I love it.

[Upbeat music playing.] You can find full episode recordings and transcripts at snortandcackle.com, just click on podcast in the main menu. Follow Snort and Cackle on Instagram @snortandcackle, and join our seasonal book club with #SnortandCackleBookClub. Don't forget to subscribe and review the podcast via your favorite podcasting platform.

Editing provided by Noah Gilroy, recording and mixing by Ash Alberg, music by Yesable.