our guest for episode 9 is angie flynn-mciver! angie is a coach whose area of specialty is communication skills. her work centers on helping clients create intentional and effective communication. her 2021 book, before you say anything, describes a new and innovative approach to connecting, creating results, and feeling confident about how you communicate. angie's company, ignite csp: coaching/speaking/presenting, coaches leaders to be more effective and intentional by focusing on how they communicate their vision and message. the company works all over over the united states and internationally. angie comes to her coaching work from a lifetime spent in theater as a director and producer. she began her career as an intern at an award-winning off-broadway theatre and then became the education director at the national shakespeare company. nc stage company, which she co-founded in 2001 in asheville, north carolina, in the united states, has won many local, regional, and national awards. she lives in asheville, with her husband, two teenagers, and two dogs. you can find her online at ignitecsp.com and on instagram @ignitecsp, and purchase her new book here.

each season we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #snortandcacklebookclub, with a book review by ash and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. this season's #snortandcacklebookclub read is witchcraft in early modern poland 1500-1800 by wanda wyporska.

take the fibre witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz. follow us on instagram @snortandcackle and be sure to subscribe via your favourite podcasting app so you don't miss an episode!

seasons 1-3 of snort & cackle are generously supported by the manitoba arts council.

transcript

snort & cackle - season 1, episode 9 -

angie flynn-mciver

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays in the background.] Hello, and welcome to the Snort and Cackle podcast. I'm your host Ash Alberg. I'm a queer fibre witch and hedge witch, and each week I interview a fellow boss witch to discuss how everyday magic helps them make their life and the wider world a better place.

Expect serious discussions about intersections of privilege and oppression, big C versus small C capitalism, rituals, sustainability, astrology, ancestral work, and a whole lot of snorts and cackles. Each season, we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #SnortAndCackleBookClub with a book review by me and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. Our book this season is Witchcraft in Early Modern Poland, 1500-1800 by Wanda Wyporska.

Today I'm here with Angie Flynn-McIver, who is a coach whose specialty is communication skills. Her work centers on helping clients create intentional and effective communication. Her 2021 book, Before You Say Anything describes a new and innovative approach to connecting, creating results and feeling confident about how you communicate.

Angie’s company, Ignite CSP (Coaching, Speaking, Presenting), coaches leaders to be more effective and intentional by focusing on how they communicate their vision and message. The company works all over the United States and internationally. Angie comes to her coaching work from a lifetime spent in theater as a director and producer.

She began her career as an intern at an award winning off-Broadway theater and then became the Education Director at the National Shakespeare Company. NC Stage Company, which she co-founded in 2001 in Asheville, North Carolina in the United States has won many local, regional, and national awards. She lives in Asheville with her husband, two teenagers and two dogs.

Hi, Angie. [Giggles.]
angie flynn-mciver: Hey, thank you for having me!

ash alberg: Thank you for joining me. It's so nice to have you here. And I'm very excited to chat more about your new book that's coming out very soon as of this podcast release date. So tell us a bit about who you are and what you do.

angie flynn-mciver: I think the best way to start is a description that I often use, which is being a detective of human behavior. And I did not set out to be a detective of human behavior, I started out to be in the theater. But as it turned out, in order to really be a good director, which is ... which is where I work in the theater, you have to pay really close attention to what makes people tick.

Those little kind of ... I think of them as these really juicy moments of what's going on between two people and what are the dynamics? What's the status? What's the ... there's just all this cool stuff that's going on. And in order to be able to really reproduce that kind of connection and those kinds of dynamics on stage in a way that's interesting for people to watch, you have to, it has to feel real to them.

It has ... they have to feel invested. I think for me, that really grew out of a lifetime of being interested in theater, being a big reader. So really looking at those nuances.

Taking that into this coaching world of, what does it mean when we want to show up authentically? What does it mean when we are communicating in a space when we are ... when maybe we haven't been able to get our voice out in this space before? Or when we're nervous, when it feels really high stakes.

That's one way of talking about what I do in the world. I bring this lens of being an observer and a coach of, “Oh, if you want to show up this way, then let's tweak this bit upstream” and then that's going to help how you show up.

ash alberg: I love that. Especially the idea of adjusting the way that you are going to communicate based on what is ... what's your end goal or what is the kind of space, what's the theater space that you're going to be in doing this? Cause, there's the very quintessential quote of “All the world's a stage,” but it's true.

Like we are constantly playing different characters of ourselves. And that doesn't mean that any of them are necessarily inauthentic, but we do perform different roles in different areas of our lives, and the way that we need to show

up and have our needs and voice heard can shift depending on “what is that space?”

So it's a skillset that is tricky. And I felt like, I also have a very long theater background and my parents joke about putting me in my brother in theater when we were children to put me ... to bring me out of my shell and to put my brother slightly back into a shell. [Both chuckle.]

So yeah, but it's a skill that not a lot of people have and it's, I think it's pretty essential. I think everybody needs to do quite a bit of theater in their lives just to learn like more emotional self-awareness. But yeah, I don't know that's necessarily going to happen, so maybe just everybody needs to hire you and your coaches.

angie flynn-mciver: For sure! That's definitely true. I would hasten to say here that even though my, our coaching philosophy and my coaches and I do come from a theater background. It doesn't ever feel like an acting class. It doesn't ... we’re not making anybody be a tree or a kangaroo. [Ash laughs.]

Although, as I like to joke, if you want to do that, we are here for you. And this is a totally safe space to be a tree or a kangaroo. But I think you're exactly right that there's this piece of self-awareness that I think is so crucial to figuring out what it means to be authentic in these different spaces.

When I first started doing this coaching work, it was very much a side hustle for me before I started doing that full time. And we did corporate work. To me it felt very corporate, from this person who has spent her whole life in rehearsal rooms and dusty theaters.

It was like, “Ooh, I'm wearing a suit, hehe.” And I felt, I ... it took me sometime to find my value and my authentic worth in that place. And so that was when ... I experienced that in my thirties and felt like, oh gosh, I thought I knew who I was and how I showed up in lots of different places, and now it's, “Oh wow. I feel out of my element, what do I do with this? How do I need to retrench and touch into what feels real for me in order to be able to bring value in this circumstance?”

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah.

The value bit I think is ... that's what we're always going for, is like, how do I say what I need to say? And it's not just ... you're not just coming in to like take

up airspace, right? It's, I have something to say, it is important, but this is a new venue or this is a new space, or this is a new environment that I am in.

And so it becomes different and it becomes less comfortable and we don't necessarily ever need like .... Uncomfortable places are generally where we are growing, which is a good thing, but there's, there's discomfort. And then there's like severe discomfort to the point where you're like unable to do what it is that you need to do in that space.

So yeah, I think what you do is very valuable. [Chuckles.]

angie flynn-mciver: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I have grown into really feeling that but it did take some of those uncomfortable growing months, especially right at the outset.

ash alberg: Yup. And I think there's also the interesting bit of, even when you're trained in theater, it's very different to be playing a character than it is to be performing yourself. I am comfortable with public speaking and teaching in particular because of how much time I've spent in theater, but I still definitely ... like when I was on stage, I'm very white. I am very European in my ancestry and very Scottish on one side. So I blush nobody's business when I am uncomfortable.

And I it's so funny watching myself on Zoom because of course you can see your face in a way that you don't necessarily see, you know, before, and I'm like, “Oh, my chest is all blotchy right now.” And I'm just teaching, I'm just talking about things that I've talked about numerous times!

But it still is ... there's a bit of uncomfortable, “oh, what if I like do something wrong here?” Or it just feels maybe vulnerable. And it never I never had that happen when I was playing a character on stage, but that's because it wasn't me. Yeah.

angie flynn-mciver: I think you really put your finger there on something that is true for so many people. Which is ... it's funny because people assume that actors are all extroverts, right?

ash alberg: Mmmm yup!

angie flynn-mciver: That is, that is ... which is fascinating to me because having been on the inside for a long time, I can tell you ... I always tell this story.

There was a ... I ... about 10 years ago, I directed Angels in America. And in the second part of Angels in America, there's an actor who has to be completely naked on stage. And there's a lot of that kind of stuff in that play. And he said, and we were talking, we were working up to it and this is going to be, and he was like, “Oh yeah, this is going to be fine.”

He was like, “lLook, you got to understand. I would rather be naked on stage in front of the entire audience than mingle, fully clothed and make small talk with them afterwards.” And to me that really encapsulates that thing of, here is a part of my identity of a place where I am authentic and can contribute in this way that is special to me and that I feel like I am really really firing on all cylinders.

And then this other space where most people feel much more comfortable, got all my clothes on, just standing around with a glass of wine or whatever, he's, “Please just let me walk through the lobby, wave and get in my car.” [Both laugh.] And he'd go on.

ash alberg: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah.

angie flynn-mciver: That's a pretty big extreme, but I think we can all find ourselves there of it just feels ... it just feels different depending on what circumstances we're in.

ash alberg: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think that's a really nice segue into our next question, which is maybe our third question, but they tie in together. So what's your relationship with ritual and magic? Like we met in a container for biz folks who are more on the witchy side, but it wasn't explicitly like “you must identify as a witch in order to be in this group.”

So tell us a little bit more about like that relationship. And I think in particular, maybe around ritual, because I feel like there's a lot of ... theater in and of itself is so ritualistic, but yeah.

angie flynn-mciver: Yes. I would say yes. So the part where you did not have to explicitly identify as a witch, that was my loophole. That's how I got in [Ash chuckles] to that incubator where we met. But I would say there are ... particularly as I have gotten older and met lots of different people, that that

dimension, that element of the world, has become really interesting and enticing to me.

So getting to know all of you has been like, “Oh my gosh, this is just the way these people live their lives.” And what's here? What can I learn more about? What can I ... you know, how can I think more about the seasons? How can I think more about the stars? How can I think more about what I'm making with my hands and how I'm moving through the world with my body?

So that in itself has just been a real gift to me. But you're right, that theater is really entrenched in ritual and, and in some way, I ... to me, it's magic, right?

ash alberg: Yes, agreed.
angie flynn-mciver: To me, there is a piece of that which is intensely structured

and logistical.

So if you go from, okay, here's opening night and here are all of our rehearsals and here are all the contracts and you know what.

I'm in professional theater, so it's, we're working with unions and we're doing all this stuff and it's, there's a lot of money at stake. And, there are all these pieces where you can look at the spreadsheets and you can look at the ... everything from the heaviness of the lighting instruments to the trickiness of all the costume fittings and how are we going to move all these set pieces and all that.

And then this thing happens and it ... there's a character in Shakespeare in Love who says this, right? Like it just ... all of a sudden if you're, if you're lucky and if you have, if you've done all the preparation and all the parts, it does transmute into something that for me is so much bigger and more profound and ineffable and unnameable than I hoped for.

ash alberg: Yes.

angie flynn-mciver: And I ... and that is my favorite stuff, right? There is ... and I can think of, just off the top of my head, three different plays that I've worked on where there are these moments at the end where I'm like, I don't know what this is.

I can't describe this. I can't, if I were trying to sell a ticket to this moment, I wouldn't be able to do it and I wouldn't want to cheapen it that way, but there is a ... this is what it's all about.

It's that mystery of human experience, that mystery of what's beyond and what's connecting us. So that's a very long part of that answer.

I would say the other thing to me around ritual is, is finding that structure that allows that magic to happen. So for me, there is the preparation of rehearsal. There is the tapping into what do I need to bring an order to create the space for the actors to be able to do the thing that they do.

ash alberg: Yes.
angie flynn-mciver: Because that's so different from what I'm bringing.

In some ways I am bringing the structure and I am bringing the questions and I am bringing the, “Hey, let's push this farther.” And, and they are bringing this thing that, to me, turns into that that ineffable thing. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Yes.
angie flynn-mciver: That unnameable indescribable thing. So, I'll stop talking.

I feel like that was a long answer to your question.

ash alberg: No, I love that answer so much ‘cause it's just ... it brings chills back to me because a hundred percent like that is, it's what I love so deeply about theater. It's what I miss about theater. And yeah, good theater, great theater, changes you for life.

Like I remember I lived in Halifax and was studying theater in Halifax and then I moved to the UK and, and did the same thing there. And the ratio of great theater to mediocre theater to shit theater was the exact same. Didn't change. It was just that it was different.

And the location that I have seen life-changing plays has been in every place that I have lived. And I've also seen a lot. I have literally seen hundreds and hundreds of plays throughout the course of my life because it's just what I do.

And it ... I've forgotten most of them. Like you save the ticket stubs and then every once in a while you come across them and you're like, oh yeah, that one.

And then there's some where I'm like, I literally don't even remember this play, but the ones that change you just stay in your body.

And there's just, there's something that is perfect about good theater and it's why I also think that theater is one of the best ways of changing the world. I like ... the Theater of the Oppressed is a very specific example of like, how do we do this and how do we ...? And Theater for Living, which is the less ... the less kind of black and white view point that Theater of the Oppressed really can have. Theater for Living is the more gray, nuanced version of that.

And they're very specific ways of, how do we change the world by using theater? But also, like regular theater, with a proscenium stage and everybody just sitting back and watching, can change the world. Immersive theater can change the world. Devising theater, I think, has so much potential if you do it well.

And I think that's the bit, right, is like creating ... the director, like a good director, can truly make or break a play because if you have the best actors but they're getting the wrong direction and the director isn't setting up the space so that then once the performance is happening, those actors can just fill it as they need, then you're missing a really integral bit.

And there's, there is that magic, right, of like ... Peter Pan is the perfect example. It's such a classic play. There's so much ... not trickery, but like mechanics that can go into it. Especially when you have a show that has a, if they're going to be doing the flying, whether they're using harnesses or they're using ... my favorite was the, it's basically like a giant a giant seesaw where you're like attached to a harness, but then somebody is just like lifting you up and down on this seesaw. Those ones are fun.

But it's, it looks ... If you know what you're watching and especially if you've trained in enough areas of theater, then you can actually like, truly pick it apart. But the magic is when you're trained in that, and you can still look at it and say, oh, they're flying right now. Like it just, it transcends all of those bits. Like it's such a beautiful moment when that happens.

Or, at the end of the show when the climax really comes, and it does truly feel authentic and the entire audience bursts into tears. And it's just this ... I think that's a thing right now with COVID that is making it tricky, is losing ... in live

performance there ... there's a lot that we can do with digital performance and there's a lot of fun that can happen and a lot of ways that we can adjust it.

And I think that is some of the beauty in restrictions, and COVID is a massive restriction, it does come with the potential for innovation. And that is great, but there is something so implicitly human in being in a room together and having that suddenly like symbiotic breath and emotional experience and like all of that, which is also why I think ... I remember when I lived in London and would go to shows and they would be testing out like, oh let the ... “here's this section of the theater where you're allowed to have your cell phone up.”

And just, it's ... you're breaking everything because the glow of that is pulling us out of ... It's literally a barrier between you and the stage and just the way that we are all now breathing in sync with each other. There's real magic in those moments that I think everybody ... I think all kids should be trained in theater.

Like they all need to just go to theater. Teaches them a new vocabulary, gives them a new way of expressing themselves, and then it allows them also to like tune into, like, where are you in space, where other people in space, are you breathing, like being aware of yourself and your body and your emotions, and also aware of the people around you? I think is a thing that we need more of in the world. [Chuckles.]

angie flynn-mciver: Yes. I could not agree with you more on all of those counts. I was thinking about ... I directed a play, I don't know, a million years ago now, The Beauty Queen of Lamont. Did you ever see that?

ash alberg: Yes. Like once.

angie flynn-mciver: Okay and it's, it all takes place in this one mean cabin/cottage situation. It’s an adult daughter and her mother and the daughter is run ragged taking care of a mother who is incredibly demanding and horrible.

And at the very beginning of ... I remember the first preview, I was standing in the back of the theater, and we have a three-quarter thrust so there's audience on three sides. I was sitting in the back. And the first part of the play is really funny. Martin McDonagh is a funny playwright and people are really laughing so much.

And I was like, this is about to get really dark. Like I really hope they can come with us here because they are having such a great time, but this is about to get really dark. And it's just what you described.

Like they're all together. They're all laughing together. There is something ... I'd love to know, I don't know if there are any studies about this, but I'd love to know, do people start to breathe in sync when they're in theaters together? Just all of that stuff.

So they're laughing. I'm starting to get nervous. [Ash laughs.] And then, and I don't remember the lines now, but this moment happens that just breaks that and all of a sudden it's just ... you could hear a pin drop, just completely silent. Everybody just is, “Oh, this is not what I thought it was.”

Oh, shit. Things just got real. And then that really sets up the roller coaster of the rest of the play, because there are still funny moments, but they are also really horrifying things that happen. They do, the mother and daughter do terrible things to each other. And, but I knew from that moment that they were on board, that they, as a collective, had synced into what we were trying to do with the play.

And that the that's just, those are some of my most fun and satisfying experiences is when you feel that happen, you're like, okay, so this thing I made for you is working.

ash alberg: Yes. Yes.
angie flynn-mciver: I'm so glad this thing is working.

ash alberg: Yeah, especially cause it is, it's such a journey that we take people on.

And children's theater, and adult, like they can all do that. Some of the most heartbreaking things I've ever seen have been children's theater. And I feel like especially stuff for ... not toddlers, but really young elementary school kids can actually do a better job of building up amazing emotional journeys because kids at that age just are so naturally emotional, right?

Like they haven't ... the world hasn't smushed them quite enough yet for them to feel like they need to restrict those feelings. Or it's like whenever you see

teenage plays, right? Like the angst that just is naturally built in, like the whole thing is just one emotional roller coaster.

Yeah. It's ... I think there's something that's sometimes a little bit more honest about like young children's theater because they don't worry about the ... whether somebody is going to like laugh enough the way that we do with adults, like kids will just naturally ... like they clue in, if they've clicked in, they click in and they stay with you for as long as there ... there's a reason that we have shorter plays for younger children, their attention span is shorter.

But yeah, there's I remember seeing that play in Halifax and uhhh, it's yeah, it's a pretty brutal one. [Laughs.] Like ...

angie flynn-mciver: Yeah. Yeah it is.
ash alberg: But yeah, there's, there is also that like very dry Irish humor that

kicks in and it's, it can be really ... yeah.

There's something really wonderful about plays that will take you on that, that extreme of a journey with those ups and downs. Like I think that's something that also we’re losing in COVID, right? Like people are having these ups and downs, but they're not necessarily knowing how to process them.

And especially, if they didn't have mental health stuff before or weren't addressing it before, and it was a low enough baseline that it wasn't a concern, and now all of a sudden it's like, all these changes happen and the isolation and all these things like ... There's a lot of processing that we need to do emotionally and often a lot of us would be doing that through art, whether it was through theater or going to a movie, or like all of these things.

There's certain movies that I have now just learned I need to watch this at least once a month during COVID because if I need to process something, whether I’m aware of it or not, it will come out by going through the ups and downs of these movies. Yeah.

angie flynn-mciver: Oh, how smart. That's great.

ash alberg: Frozen too. [Angie laughs.] That's my quarantine movie. I recommend it for everybody. [Laughs.]

angie flynn-mciver: It's a good one! It's a good one. It's hard to beat.

Have you watched ... so just real quick, did you happen to watch, and if you haven't seen it, I will send it to you ... There is a video of Snoop Dogg listening to Let it Go in his car.

ash alberg: NO! That sounds great.
angie flynn-mciver: Yeah. It's ... highly recommend.

ash alberg: Okay, good. Everybody listening to this episode, please go and watch that now. [Laughs.] I love that. Okay.

So how do you ... we've just, we're talking about how basically all the theater is ritual, but how do you incorporate it into your biz? And maybe also like with the coaching, how do you ... like theater has so much tradition that is built around it that it's, you're almost like having to work really hard to not follow those rituals in some form, because also we know that they work.

Whether you're doing, coming up with something completely new with devising, or you're working off of the very traditional script or you're doing Romeo and Juliet, which everybody has done umpteen times, like there's still we follow a formula because we know that formula and we trust that formula.

But how do you maybe take that and then put it into these coaching sessions that are much more individualized and in different environments and things like that?

angie flynn-mciver: Yeah, I think for me, one thing that I have, I've backed into what I needed to know, starting out around ritual and structure and ... And setting up a container. And it was funny because, and this was years ago, I was getting ready to get on a client call and I thought, I want to light a candle.

And I was not really a candle ... I like candles fine, but it was not, it had not ... it was a thing that like came from somewhere

ash alberg: Mhmm.

angie flynn-mciver: And I was like, okay, this is gonna help me set up the space for myself to become fully present. And I didn't know that I needed that.

Nobody told me that. It's not something I do when I'm in rehearsal, but it helped me create a space for myself.

Where I was ... I was really able to show up for this client. And so that was a, I would say that's a big piece of ritual for me around, around coaching. And again, it's not something I do with the client. We don't, I'm not like, “I'm lighting the candle.” Like it's just for me to help me show up.

I would say another piece of this is that I think is more analogous to theater is, is setting up with a client, whether it's our first session or if we've been working together for a long time, the structure is, “I'm going to ask you how you're doing. We're going to check in like human beings.” And now I'm going to say, “What do you need out of this time today? What's gonna help you feel like this time was well-spent and that makes it a win for you?”

And that lets them drop into that next place of, okay, this is the time I'm spending here. What do I need to create? What do I want to bring forward? What do I, what do I want to share?

ash alberg: Yeah.
angie flynn-mciver: And then at the end that I ... So they're almost these

bookends of, how do I again create this and hold this container?

And that ... it's the client's time. And I can ... but then the other thing, I guess for me, is that once I have set that up, that frees me and ideally the client to engage in that space in whatever way becomes clear needs to happen. So it doesn't have to be, okay, for the first 15 minutes, we're going to do this, and now I'm going to look at your presentation and now I'm going to give you feedback, and now we're going to get the next steps.

It may work out that way, but ... but it's a little bit more loosely held than that.

ash alberg: Yeah. There, yeah. I feel like the loosely held is an important part of it because it's, yeah ...

angie flynn-mciver: It is for me. I'm a big believer in serendipity. And one of the things that, thinking about COVID, one of the things I actually find really hard about COVID is that I feel like there's less ... everything is so planned. It's, “I'm going to talk to Ash at 11 and I'm going to ...” and not that serendipity

can't happen within the conversation, obviously it does, but you don't run into people.

You're not like that part of it. And I think probably partly because so much of my creative life is finding something in rehearsal that again, I didn't know I was looking for, I wasn't searching for, but oh my gosh, this confluence of events has meant that we find this thing this part. I'm still figuring out how to navigate where that moment of discovery comes from in this world that we're in right now.

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that. Especially like, there's so much used to just come from, like you happen to run into somebody at the coffee shop while you're working. And like just those things that right now, just don't naturally happen and it's like, it can have minor effects, but then it can also be a lot larger, right?

Like even it's so funny how, like the dating apps ... it's now become very normal on the dating apps for people to not be looking for dates. They're specifically just looking for friendship because as adults, it is harder to make friends, especially when you're not like actively going out right now.

We just, we can't even go to choir practice, maybe, the way that you used to, or you're not going to go to the casual pickup game. Like these, the things that we used to do to connect with people are not so simple and certainly not as casual as they used to be. There's a lot more thought that should be going into them.

And because of that, then we are losing opportunities for these natural connections to happen. And so you do have to be more mindful about how do I, if I want to prioritize this, then how do I go about meeting new people? And it's just this like funny side effect that I think ultimately will be a good thing.

Tinder, having more people, looking for friends and less people getting stuck with ... and maybe now it's just a combo of all of it, but yeah it's just, it's funny how we do have to like plan for those moments that otherwise would have been this like really beautiful, magical thing.

And maybe it's just like adjusting our idea of what is ... now, what is serendipity now instead of meeting somebody at a coffee shop? That it's, that they appear in our feed as, oh, here's a new person. And so the algorithm

worked for me this time. So that's the way that I'm going to now look at what is serendipity.

But it does feel, I feel like it's harder to justify or maybe to make our brains accept the fact that now especially, there's a technology aspect to the serendipity or the magic that wouldn’t happen otherwise in the world. It's hard to be like, yes, I believe that this is still what the universe wanted to happen, even though it came via my phone. [Chuckles.]

angie flynn-mciver: And to your point, the algorithm that some big tech company in some place ... that's the part where I get a little ... I do think that magic happens in lots of ways and won't be thwarted by, it won't be like, “I'm not doing it that way,” but I do wonder.

ash alberg: Yeah.

And so, what is something that you wish that somebody had told you when you were younger about either magic or ritual, or in your younger self, if somebody had said, “Hey, this thing,” it would have just made life easier or more enjoyable or something?

angie flynn-mciver: It's funny. I didn't know how I was going to answer that question when you told me originally, but as we've just been talking the answer that came up for me as this: so when I was in my own mid twenties, I went on this trip in the summer.

It was one of those watershed things. I was breaking up with somebody who I thought I was going to be with forever. It was big change in terms of just every, all of the important aspects of my life. Also mid twenties where it's, everything's a little up in the air.

ash alberg: Yes.

angie flynn-mciver: And I, up to that point, I was ... it was very much a yeah, here's how this is all going to work and I'm going to get these kinds of grades and I'm going to go to this kind of school and then I'm going to get this kind of job.

And then this is how this is all going to work. And I would say very much “let me control all the things,” right? And we all understand that control is a fiction, but ...

ash alberg: But it’s a nice fiction!
angie flynn-mciver: It's a very comforting fiction. So I go on this trip and I

spent something like seven weeks in Europe, traveling by myself. ash alberg: Mmm.

angie flynn-mciver: Which was incredible and really was this time of self discovery. I was really figuring out by myself, every place I showed up, like, how long am I going to be?

Like, I thought I'd be in Rome for a long time. It was miserably hot. Rome was not doing anything for me. I was like, great. I'm going to go get on a train.

I don't have, I don't have to check with anybody. I don't, nobody's expecting me. I can do anything I want, I can make any of these decisions any way I want. My only limit really was my budget. So it was like, how can I ... it was definitely that like ...

ash alberg: Yeah. How can I do this without ... [Both talk at the same time.]

angie flynn-mciver: Europe on like $25 a day or whatever. Exactly. [Ash laughs.]

And by the time I got back, I remember the thing I did immediately when I flew back was go to my ... every summer, my mom's side of the family, which is a pretty big side of the family, has this big extended trip at the beach and we all spend time together. I remember talking to a family member of mine who, she's my aunt but she's only 10 years older than me. So it's not like ... anyway.

She was like, “Okay, what's next? What are you going to do?” And I was like, I don't really know. And she's, “Angie you don't have an apartment. You don't have a job. And you broke up with your boyfriend. So what is your plan?” I was like, I dunno, I think it's gonna work out.

And within about 48 hours, I had gotten a call from a good friend in college who was like, Hey, I need a roommate. You need to come to move in with me. I had gotten another call from a friend of mine who I was in an intern with, who was like, “Oh, we're hiring at the National Shakespeare Company. I think you’d be perfect for this. Can you come in and interview?”

And here's the thing that, to finally answer your question, I wish that ... Let me say this first. I learned the lesson then that if you, if I will take my hands off the reins, if I will let go and let the magic happen, it will show up. It will show up. If I can just stop trying to control everything.

ash alberg: Yes.

angie flynn-mciver: So I learned that then, and then I have had to, surprise, learn it several times again [Ash laughs.] And then sometimes on a daily basis in the intervening years.

But I do really wish that ... and now I watch my daughter be very much, “how can I get all the things, you got to get all that.” If you can just even ... you don't have to let go, but just like loosen your hands a little bit, see how it'll play out. Because at least for me, that level of hyper-focus blotted out a lot of opportunities –

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah.

angie flynn-mciver: ... and made me make decisions about things I didn't really need to decide about that could have, I could have lived in ambiguity a little bit more and let things show up. And I think that's my, again, my very long answer is like, just ride the wave. Let this thing happen and see what comes up.

ash alberg: I love that so much. [Laughs.]

angie flynn-mciver: It was great. It was, it was a remarkable ... it just felt like, it really felt the universe being like, here's your reward. Like you chilled out and look, here's this cool apartment. Here's this awesome job. Everything's going to be fine. Yeah, go you!

ash alberg: Yep. A hundred percent. It's so funny. Yeah.

I was talking to my dad about similar, like, not the same thing, but also the same thing. We were just talking about money and he was like, what? And my ...

both of my parents came from very much like working class, poor backgrounds, single income, all of that, and made their way to a middle-class.

But my dad was like, one thing that I learned was just don't ever worry about it. It'll just, it'll come. And even if you have your very last dollar, there will be another dollar. Like it may not be that much, but it'll be enough to get by. And then you'll just get some more later. Like it's just, and I think there's something that's really important about ...

I think the thing that fucks us up a lot of the time is that we assume everything has a finite resource, right? Like money is finite. Love is finite. Health is finite. And we don't allow ourselves to maybe consider the fact that it's not finite.

There will be something more or something different that it might not be the exact same, or it might not be what we were dreaming of, but it is still a form of that thing. And we haven't ... by losing it once we haven't lost it forever. And I think there's something that is really potent about that.

And in our capitalist society is like very much anti the messaging that we are consistently fed. And I think that it also then makes community and interrelationships and the way that we approach like, being with others worse because we're told like you will only ever have this much and so you need to protect it at all costs.

And if you lose it, you're fucked. You'll never have it again. And if somebody threatens it, then you need to be just like completely on guard. And it's just, it's so unhealthy because things cycle absolutely.

There are dormant periods, there are periods of loss, absolutely. But there's also growth. There's also bloom. There's also periods of just like beautiful health and harvest. And I say this as an Aries who’s like also very much, like, I got my Taurus in positions that are not that helpful. [Laughs.]

I like control. It is absolutely something that I prefer in life. And when I feel less in control, like when I travel, my OCD goes through the roof and it’s, it's absolutely just this, like, trying to control things. But also I know that I'm healthier when I release a little bit.

And that ... it's, I think one of the things I ... not “I think,” I know one of the things that helps my anxiety is having enough situations consistently showing up over and over again to remind myself that the next time I feel anxious, it's

the anxiety that's at play. It's not actually the real situation because we've now seen this situation play out this many times and this many different ways that then shows us we survived it last time and we'll survive at this time and it's okay.

And it's not always this like big, terrible thing. Sometimes it is, and that sucks, but we can ... we can move through it and figure it out the next time too.

angie flynn-mciver: Yeah. So much of what you said was really speaking to me about that, and the ... and particularly the part where you ... these aren’t the words you used, but what I was thinking about was coming from a scarcity mindset and then making fear-based decisions. And one of the things that I was hearing retrospectively, and my answer was obviously ... I was speaking from a place of privilege, that my ... I was able to have this internship.

I had friends in college, my network was part of what serendipitously swooped in and helped me up. And obviously not everybody has that, but that reminder does help me show up in a way that's, “Hey, I have extra ...”

ash alberg: Yeah.
angie flynn-mciver: Where does this extra need to go? I don't need this. ash alberg: Yes. Yeah!

angie flynn-mciver: And to continue to reassess that. And it is that thing of tightening my hands on ... Why do I keep saying that? I'm making this gesture, that you can see me --

ash alberg: Yeah. I can see you loosening your hands! [Laughs.]

angie flynn-mciver: I’m letting go, but I'm saying tightening every time. [Ash chuckles.] So letting go of the reins really does allow me to go to that place of, in myself, which is more of that ... I do this, I've been doing this work in the system called positive intelligence and what he says ... your sage powers, right?

So going into your sage powers of empathy and creativity and knowing, to your father's point, you created this dollar, you can create the next dollar. So what can you do with this dollar that where it can be of most service? And that might be to me, but it might be to somebody else too.

And that is a big ... I would say, for my looking forward in my work, that's a big piece of this for me. What do I need to be doing that serves people who are maybe not my typical clients? That serves ... maybe it's a pro bono work, and we've done a lot of pro bono work, but maybe it's volunteer stuff.

So that ... and that's a great opportunity for us too.

ash alberg: Oh man, I'm loving this. And we're actually staying pretty well on time. This is impressive. I would love to have like day-long conversations with people but I recognize that's not the best forum for a podcast.

angie flynn-mciver: Very long form.
ash alberg: Yes, exactly. Long-form theater. I, Hey, we could just pull ... now

I'm forgetting his name, but the guy who does 36 hour plays?

angie flynn-mciver: Oh yes. I don't remember his name either.

ash alberg: Robert something. I want to say, it's Robert something.

angie flynn-mciver: Oh, oh gosh. Anyway. Yes. Yes.

ash alberg: If you're in theater world, you know who we're talking about. [Chuckles.]

angie flynn-mciver: It was right ... It's right there in my brain. I can't get it. ash alberg: He actually did one in London while I was there. And I was like,

I'm not sitting in a theater for 12 hours. It's just not happening. But ... angie flynn-mciver: That’s a long time.

ash alberg: Yeeah, it was ... yeah, it was like a one, you come for the full 12 hours. Just unnecessary. Also, I think I'd seen like a shorter form ... I put that in quotations, it was still a three-hour play, and it was not one of the most amazing plays in my life.

So I was like, I don't need to sit here for 12 hours --

angie flynn-mciver: It's because you were missing nine hours. Clearly. [Joking/Sarcasm.]

ash alberg: Yes, exactly. [Angie laughs.] Extra time obviously makes a play bad. That's how everything works and conflict is better drawn out as long as possible.

angie flynn-mciver: There you go.
ash alberg: Yes. So we won't do that with this podcast even though sometimes

...

So what's next for you? And I think let's chat a little bit about your book, which is going to be upcoming soon based on this podcast release date.

angie flynn-mciver: Yes, in the fall. So we are looking at an October 1 release date. Friday, October 1st. And yes, it's called ... my book is called Before You Say Anything, and it is really like a pocket coach of everything about our coaching approach, which is a three-part process. And it's all about the why.

You said this early on in our conversation about this idea of, what are you trying to make happen? What is the outcome of your communication? And then really working backwards from the outcome that you're trying to achieve to figure out what your body and your voice need to be doing and how to practice to get better at it. And again, this is what we've been ... with my company for the last 15 years, with our clients all over the place.

And so this is really lots of case studies and stories and examples distilled into the book. I'm super excited about it. It has been quite a long process to get it written along with ... And writers say, “I've been working on this book for four years,” and every time I read that, they’ve been working on that book for four years.

In my case, I'll just pull back the curtain and tell you I was working really hard on it for a short period of time. And then I did nothing for months and months [Ash laughs] and then I would work on it again. And then I would do nothing for months and months. So that's how it has gotten to take as long as it has.

But I do feel like it is really fortuitous. I feel like it is all coming together at exactly the right time.

ash alberg: Perfect, more magic. [Giggles.] angie flynn-mciver: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

ash alberg: Ugh, so good. I'm so excited. We will make sure that there is a link in the bio or in the show notes, not the bio. A link in the show notes for where people can find you and also where they can pre-order a copy of the book. And then once the book is out where they can order a copy. And yeah, I'm so excited.

Thank you for this. I've also really enjoyed, just like going down theater memory lane. It's so much fun, so good.

angie flynn-mciver: So great. Yes. Yes. You've made me miss live theater more than even I did before we got on this call --

ash alberg: Oh, I’m sorry!
angie flynn-mciver: ... which I think is a great thing.

I think ... now I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think I'm ready for that whatever in the next several, hopefully six months or so that we can find ourselves in a theater again.

ash alberg: Yeah. You all are having a much faster vaccination. I just got my first vaccine. I'm very excited.

angie flynn-mciver: Hooraay! That’s so great!
ash alberg: Yeah, it's not gonna really change my day-to-day life, but it will

remove a slight layer of anxiety ...

angie flynn-mciver: Right. And that's right. Yeah, you're getting there. That's great. Thank you, Ash. This has just been awesome.

ash alberg: Thank you, Angie. This has been a lot of fun and I appreciate you spending some time with me.

angie flynn-mciver: My pleasure.

ash alberg: You can find Angie online at ignitecsp.com and on Instagram @igniteCSP.

[Upbeat music plays.] You can find full episode recordings and transcripts at snortandcackle.com, just click on podcast in the main menu. Follow Snort and Cackle on Instagram @snortandcackle, and join our seasonal book club with #SnortandCackleBookClub. Don't forget to subscribe and review the podcast via your favorite podcasting platform.

Editing provided by Noah Gilroy, recording and mixing by Ash Alberg, music by Yesable.