our guest for episode 8 is grace boyd! boyd (she/her/witch) is a ceramic and land based artist living nomadically across canada, turtle island. she holds a BFA from the university of manitoba and is currently pursuing an MFA from nscad. her early life was untamed and mostly lived outdoors, the natural beauty that surrounded her shaped her identity and making practice, drawing her to handmade objects and how they are made. the places she has lived and the wild spaces she visits inspire her work and inform her constant need to connect; person, place, and object. boyd is ever seeking a natural place to rest which drives her to create the world in which she wishes to belong, live and thrive within. you can find her on instagram @gracewboyd.

each season we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #snortandcacklebookclub, with a book review by ash and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. this season's #snortandcacklebookclub read is "orishas, goddesses, and voodoo queens" by lilith dorsey.

take the fibre witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz. follow us on instagram @snortandcackle and be sure to subscribe via your favourite podcasting app so you don't miss an episode!

seasons 1-3 of snort & cackle are generously supported by the manitoba arts council.

transcript

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] Hello, and welcome to the Snort and Cackle podcast. I'm your host, Ash Alberg. I'm a queer fibre witch and hedgewitch. And each week I interview a fellow boss witch to discuss how everyday magic helps them make their life and the wider world, a better place. 

Expect serious discussions about intersections of privilege and oppression, big C versus small C capitalism, rituals, sustainability, astrology, ancestral work, and a whole lot of snorts and cackles. Each season, we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #SnortAndCackleBookClub with a book review by me and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. Our book this season is Orishas, Goddesses, and Voodoo Queens by Lilith Dorsey. 

Whether you're an aspiring boss witch looking to start your knitwear design business, a plant witch looking to play more with your local naturally dyed color palette or a knit witch wondering just what the hell is a natural yarn and how do you use it in your favorite patterns, we've got the solution for you.

Take the free fiber witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz and find out which self-paced online program will help you take your dreams into reality. Visit ashalberg.com/quiz [upbeat music fades out] and then join fellow fiber witches in the Creative Coven Community at ashalberg.com/creative-coven-community for 24/7 access to Ash’s favorite resources, monthly zoom knit nights, and more. [End of intro.]  

So I am here today with one of my dear ones, Grace Boyd, and Grace is the other half of the Tiny Coven. [Laughs and snorts.] We have a coven of two, it's all we need. And I like, whenever I try and tell people, explain what you are, I'm like, Grace is a clay witch or an earth witch, but like literally like earth in the same way that I'm a fiber witch, but also you're like actually an everything witch ‘cause you're also a goldsmith and a knitter and like you work with literally all the things. 

You're also like a speed skater and speed skate at a crazy level. And yeah, you do all the things, but anytime people are complimenting any of my mugs or plates or like little snuggle cups, it's always something that has been made by you. So I generally first and foremost say that to you’re the clay witch, but yeah.

Hi, my love. [Giggles]

grace w boyd: Hi! I know they can't see me, but I'm just grinning cheek to cheek here. 

ash alberg: I'm actually very lucky because I got to see you a couple of days ago, but now you are …

grace w boyd: It’s so fresh still!

ash alberg: It's so nice. But now you're back in Kjipuktuk where you are living and have left me for. Everybody moves back home there and it's so annoying. But yeah, you're, we technically met here in Winnipeg and that's where we are both from, and now we just both happened to also be east coasters by heart.

Tell us a bit about who you are and what you do. And I'm gonna take a sip of coffee while you do that.

grace w boyd: Awesome. Yeah, please caffeinate. Yeah, I am Grace W. Boyd. And I am okay … My pronouns, she/her. Definitely Miss Witch, I am not offended in any way, shape or form. 

ash alberg: Miss Witch, I love it.

grace w boyd: And then, yeah I'm an earth witch, mud witch, clay witch. Definitely as mentioned, I do dabble in everything that I can get my fingers into, so whether it's like gardening or knitting or flying by the seat of my pants and trying to pattern.

ash alberg: You're also like, I should point out that whenever people are like, you're like the quintessential knitter in my mind, because you just come up with the most random ideas in your head for designs and then create these perfectly fitting garments. And also you like, can't read patterns. Like you remind me of my grandma [laugh-snorts] where it's just like very like Eastern European method of being like, I want to do this.

Okay. I'll just cast on the stitches and off we go, but like 

grace w boyd: Away we go!

ash alberg: But then you have a pattern and you're like, what the fuck is this?

grace w boyd: Oh man. I know. I've been, I'm also like a documenter, I guess. I'm trying to move away from the word hoarder, but I definitely have a hoard of knitting patterns. And I use like rude air quotes when I say that, but when I look back at them, they're like shrively, crumbly pieces of paper with like dashes and circles and Xs in no order.

And it's, man, I will never be able to recreate anything, but I knew exactly what it meant then.

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah, this is, I feel like the method of taking notes is like the most important thing that I teach any of my design students. I'm like, I don't care if you ever design for anybody else, you at least need to remember what the fuck you did for yourself if you want to do it again.

grace w boyd: Oh completely. So it's, this is my like documentation of orderly chaos. [Both giggle.]

ash alberg: Yeah, that’s just life in general. 

grace w boyd: Like my garden, my documentation was the same way, like my garden’s, “Oh yeah, it's nice, neat rows.” And by the end of it, it was just like, stuff's growing everywhere. It was like, I don't remember what that is. I just know that I could eat it. So whatever, we're fine. 

ash alberg: I'll just make a salad, but we're going to assume everything in here is edible. 

grace w boyd: Yeah. Who knows what it is? It's great. 

ash alberg: Oh my god, I love that so much. And yeah, so you are in Kjipuktuk up right now doing your master’s because you're like a hardcore amazing ceramicist who currently has a broken wrist. There's that. [Laugh-snorts.]

grace w boyd: [Giggles.] Oh, my gosh. It's good. It's good. You know what, the universe sometimes sends me … I mean they try to whisper and then I just don't listen to the universe whispering. Sometimes the universe like hurls, like a car at me, not literally but metaphorically, and tells me to slow down. So the universe gave me a big old billboard that said, “Hey, Grace, you need to take a step back and we're just going to slow you down a little bit for your own good.” 

So currently I am, I'm halfway through my cast life. 

ash alberg: Oh, man. The rehabbing for that wrist though, is going to be like … I'm just sending you all of the joint salve once it's, once your cast is off ‘cause like shit.

grace w boyd: I'm going to need it. 

ash alberg: Yeah, you are. [Laughs.]

grace w boyd: So miserable. No, actually I think I've … so I've met … it's amazing how many people, like you walk around with a cast and  people are like “Oh, is that a broken wrist, or is that a …” It’s like, they know, and it's all the people that throughout their youth have broken arms and they're like, “Oh!” And so I'm getting all this wonderful advice from firsthand people that have actually broken their wrists and/or arms.

And it's great. I love it. I feel like I'm part of a little club. Like …

ash alberg: Yeah. ‘Cause this is your first broken bone!

grace w boyd: This is, I know! I have made it this far in my life without breaking a bone, which is ridiculous. 

ash alberg: Yeah, it's a little, it's fucking wild. ‘Cause you're like not … I always try, like whenever I like explain our relationship to people, I'm like, I love Grace so much. [Talk-laughing.] I would never be able to date her because you're just like, you're so deeply and like bone-wise, it makes sense. But you're just so deeply nomadic and you just are constantly on the go somewhere doing the craziest shit.

And you're like very like adrenaline … I don't even think it's like adrenaline junkie. You just get high off of life and do everything that life makes available to you, which involves like us having a plan. And then the next day you being like, oh, by the way, I'm on a plane to Costa Rica. [Grace laughs.] 

And I'm like, yeah, okay, this makes sense. I'm like, anybody else I'd be like, “What the fuck?!” but with you, I'm like, this makes sense. I will see you when you get home.

grace w boyd: “This makes sense.” I know, oh my gosh. Yeah. And I'm also slightly stubborn in my head. 

ash alberg: Slightly??

grace w boyd: Okay … [Giggles.] 

ash alberg: We are the same person in this regard. [Snort-laughs.]

grace w boyd: Yeah, you understand me. My Sag just shines through like nobody's business in these moments where I'm like, we can do all the things, it’s great! A little bit of danger, a little bit of safety, third … 

ash alberg: Oooh man. But yeah, ‘cause you've been like, you've been a speed skater. I totally just connected the dots of like, your speed skating and now the fact that you roller skate, which is how you happened to bust this wrist. 

But like you do the coolest shit with your rollerskating. And I just, I watch Instagram and I'm just like, Grace is the coolest person. But then I have literally just now connected the dots of oh wait, you already had the skills of being on a similar-esque thing.

grace w boyd: Yeah, on rolling slippery death machines. [Ash laughs.] I know. I feel like I should like forfeit, just for my ego’s sake. But while roller skating, I did break my wrist roller skating and five minutes before I broke my wrist, I was doing like really fun, but slightly … more than slightly dangerous things.

And then I broke my wrist while standing up going at about walking speed. I just lost my balance and did like a cannon ball straight down on my wrist. And it was one of those moments where I was like, this isn't even a good glory story. I was literally just attempting like a flip in a big like skate park bowl on roller skates and the thing that breaks me is standing?!

ash alberg: Yep. No, it's true. It's like, when I broke my wrist, I was 10 and I was in the Rocky Mountains and biking down the top of Mount Revelstoke. And the first kilometer is all switchbacks. And then you get out of switchbacks and it's a really lovely kind of coast down. Very end of the switchbacks, I look back to see where my mum is, lose control of my bike, land on my wrist.

Like same thing, where you're like doing this crazy shit. And you're like, I got this. And then it's, I'm done! Nope. 

grace w boyd: Nope. I know. [Both groan.] I was looking at getting back on my skates maybe this week ‘cause it's a really nice …

ash alberg: Oh my god. [Ash laughs.]

grace w boyd: … and I have a … I know. I know. 

ash alberg: You’re like, I have a built-in wrist guard.

grace w boyd: A wrist guard! And my bones gonna be stronger because now there's a metal on it. I'm fine. I am invincible. And then my human comes out in my head and it's like that little voice that goes, “Huh, maybe you need to rethink this plan. The universe might send us another billboard or car or something.” [Ash cackles.]

Listen, go slow. So I will admit I've stared at my skates a couple of times already since being back and been like, just a little skate won't kill me. [Ash laughs.] So I went for a walk instead 

ash alberg: There we go. I feel like potentially somebody needs to just remove your skates from your house for a little bit. [Laughs.] Be like, they're just going to live over here until you're done your healing with the cast.

grace w boyd: Put them in a safe or something.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. Change the like lock combination or something.

grace w boyd: I've been really good at … so I'm, I have a full-time studio practice. And I've been really good. I only go into the studio to like, look at my pots or read a book or water my plants. I can't get my cast dirty. I've tried working with bags and it's a nightmare. 

I just got my grip strength back to a degree where I can open a door knob, so I'm like, so do not go into the studio to work, Grace.

ash alberg: Oh my god.

grace w boyd: So I went in the other … I know. I …

ash alberg: You’re like, let me just throw some things on the wheel. They're small. It'll be fine. Also, we should point out that the wrist that you broke is from your dominant hand. 

grace w boyd: I'm going to make one-handed injured pots. Hmmm.

ash alberg: Oh my god. That could be an interesting practice, but maybe not.

grace w boyd: Maybe not. Yeah. So I've been, but I've been so good. I've been so well behaved. I've been going in and just watering my plants and like walking out and every time I walk out, I will admit I have the grump face on. Like just a little grump face. 

ash alberg: That's reasonable though. So … ‘cause yeah, you're in Kjipuktuk right now doing your master’s, and your master’s is a fine arts in ceramics. Is that the technical? Yeah. But you do way cooler shit, I think than a lot of … I think ceramics in general are very cool. Yes. But like you take shit a step further where like you forage your clay and glazes.

grace w boyd: I do.

ash alberg: And so it's very land-based, which I think makes your work just exponentially cooler. And also, so do other people, because you've done a lot of residencies prior to doing your master’s, but 

grace w boyd: I have. 

ash alberg: Yeah. But it's … I think also the thing that I love about your work is that it's a practical focus. So like I have so many vessels from you that are usable vessels because this is what we both care about. We're like, we need magical practical things that are beautiful. 

grace w boyd: My everyday life needs more magical objects. 

ash alberg: Yeess. Oh my god. Maybe talk to me about that. And then also, what is your experience within … I might be poking a bear that I don't want to be poking here, but …

grace w boyd: Poke the bear. 

ash alberg: What's your experience being in a craft discipline slash an art discipline where honestly, practicality is often not valued, right? Like we see this so consistently where like in textiles and haute couture is considered more worthwhile than like everyday wear and where fancy, obscure, unusable things that look beautiful are valued, literally like dollars-wise valued more than items that we would be using for everyday use and that are made well enough that we can be passing them down. 

And same with the example that I always give whenever I'm talking about like craft versus art is how we value a tapestry at like hundreds of thousands of dollars and a rug at hundreds of dollars and yet they’re, they can be literally the same thing and all you're doing is putting it on the floor or putting it on the wall. 

grace w boyd: Yeah. 

ash alberg: So let's poke that bear.

grace w boyd: Enjoy poking that bear.

Yeah. So I think, both of your questions combine into the one. So I have, I've always been … not, maybe not always, I've always been curious and aware of my immediate objects. So also, like I lived in a house that had, in my childhood that had precious “don't touch me” objects, but also precious “engage with me everyday” objects.

So from a really early age, I learned that it was better to have things to use than to look at. So it's, I don't want to buy the thing that I can't wear every day or that I can't sit on or like touch. So imagine one of those like beautiful homes that has like the white plush carpet and like the suede couch that nobody ever actually sits on.

But it's, if I want to suede couch, I want to like bear roll all over this couch. So I know, like to me value as far as a dollar value, it'd be great if it could mirror perhaps a fine art object, but in my mind, the value of a mug … I think the mug is a perfect example. Everybody loves buying mugs, but my life value and interactive value of a mug is more valuable than if I was going to just hang a mug on a wall to look at it for the rest of its existence.

So taking the same thing. So for, I wished dollar value aligned with like experiential value or that kind of thing, but it doesn't … it's, it stopped bugging me more so in recent history, which is great because of accessibility. If I want to price my object at this value that is inconceivably high for somebody who wants an everyday object that means a lot to them, like I can't price my mugs the same as a mug sculpture, right? Like they need to exist in a way that they could be affordable. I can still afford my existence making them,

ash alberg: Yes!

grace w boyd:  But then that means that people can have something special in their lives every day. Right? Their everyday mug doesn't have to be a dollar store mug. Not that … there's certain value in productive pottery, but their everyday mug could be something that somebody made.

ash alberg: Yep. I think that's it's such an interesting … as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about just like everyday rituals and how literally, like this mug that I'm currently drinking out of is one of the many mugs in my house that you made. And it is my morning coffee mug. And I only use it for my morning coffee.

It is also not a mug that I let anybody else drink out of. And it is, that's my morning ritual is making my coffee and drinking it out of this mug. And if I make tea later in the day, I drink that out of different mugs that you have also made, or if I have somebody over and we're both drinking, then I have a semi sister mug to this one.

So if we're having coffee, then maybe they will get that mug. Maybe if we're drinking tea, then we will drink out of the other mugs. And then if we're drinking whiskey, then we've got our snuggle cups and we're all set there. 

grace w boyd: Oh, I know. Oh, I love the snuggle cups. Ugh. 

ash alberg: They're just the best. They're perfect for literally everything, including like little like espresso things.

It's just, I drink like mug loads of coffee 

grace w boyd: I just need the little one now.

ash alberg: But yeah, it's … there's something that just makes it so much more special to have very specific values and very specific rituals that are attached to these items, but that also they are in use consistently. Like this mug is also well-known at the coffee shop around the corner from my house more so obviously pre-COVID, but literally I would just walk … because it's also around the corner from my house.

So I just walk over and I'm like, okay, please put my latte in my mug. And then I have random people being like, that's such a beautiful mug. I'm like, I know I brought it from home. 

grace w boyd: Oh my. 

ash alberg: My other half made it. [Laughs.]

[Grace says something inaudible in the background.]

It's so good. But, so what are you finding the experience in terms of making what you make and currently being in like academic fine art institution? Because I've actually, I've done theater degrees. I've never been in like art school, fine art school. So I have an MFA as well, but it was from a theater conservatory.

And … was it an MFA? It might just be an MA. It is an MA, because it's not within the fine arts realm and all of my like craft and textiles has been self-taught slash taught outside of academic spaces. But I also surround myself with academics and artists. 

grace w boyd: Fibre academics.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. And so, I like I'm keenly … and also I study a lot of theory and so like I'm keenly aware of what that space functions like, and I am extremely happy to have not existed … like when I go to conferences that are run by fine art institutions, I'm like, I'm real glad that I don't exist in this space on a regular basis. I like these conversations right now. I don't want to actually do a four year …

grace w boyd: Don't want to live in them. 

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. So like, how are you finding all of that dance of things?

grace w boyd: It's been interesting. So I started my MFA last year, with COVID kind of things. So people had already gotten used to the way that school was going to operate distance, but a lot of things were still happening first, like the first time around. So a lot of it was learning, but as somebody in a craft-based discipline that works very physically, I can't just take a picture of my painting or my drawing and, or send a digital file of something.

Like these things are meant to be held. I feel like I kinda got lost by administration in this fun little limbo zone where it's, it didn't matter how many PowerPoints of what I was working on I showed them everything was like, “Oh, that's nice.” Which is what like my mom says when she's not quite sure what to say about my wardrobe, [Ash laugh-snorts] which I always appreciate, but, “Oh, that's nice” … 

Because these objects are meant to be held. And it's almost like they were being perceived as art documentation versus objects of craft. So I feel almost in a way I've gotten away thus far with having these strange digital critiques where everyone just accepts what I'm doing because oh, clearly this is how it is. This is what it is.

And I haven't actually had a lot of like in person one-on-one experiences within my academic structure.

ash alberg: Yeah.

grace w boyd: And that's just, it's so weird.

ash alberg: That would be so weird. ‘Cause now you're into year two of a two year MFA and it's, you know, that would be such a strange experience. I'm just thinking of … ‘cause even with theater, right? Yeah, you can do like digital performance and you can tweak things, but it does drastically change the end result.

Like we were talking a couple of days ago when you were here about how your original plan for your thesis project, because of COVID has had to change. And I'm really hoping that at some point you can do it as like a … maybe that becomes a residency project or like a grant project, but …

grace w boyd: Exactly. Yeah. 

ash alberg: Yeah, like the impact is quite extreme sometimes.

And for good and bad, right? Like I think that's, when you're working with creative art and art that is and work that is interactive, then you also learn how to be more flexible with things when change just gets thrown at you. You're like, oh, okay, shit. Guess we're going to switch this up and see what we can do instead.

grace w boyd: Exactly. And I'm, so I'm not saying that I'm thankful for the fact that I couldn't do what I originally proposed to do within my thesis exploration, but it brought me back to some of my really like land-based practice roots, which has been nice. And it's land, use of land and natural materials and even place objects have always been in my practice.

And I think getting to step away from perhaps objects of function at the table and step back into objects of function, as far as experience goes, has been like a new wave to me. I'm trying to use as many tidal, oceany things … [Giggles.]

ash alberg: I love that. It's so appropriate though. Oh, goodness.

grace w boyd: Yeah, this is the longest I've lived close to ocean that doesn't freeze that I can go in year-round. So this is such a weird experience to be such like a water baby. Like I've always loved water, but this has been like the longest I've been around salt water. 

ash alberg: Totally.

grace w boyd: So yeah. So it's already changed my language. 

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah, it does. It just sinks into your bones. That's, it's one of the things like, I, I always, whenever I'm trying to explain myself, I'm like, I'm a Maritimer who needs big skies. 

Yes, I was born on the prairies, but my body is very much one that just … and specifically the Atlantic Ocean. Other oceans are always lovely, but like the North Atlantic is my like home space. And I guess also technically, ancestrally. 

grace w boyd: Absolutely. 

ash alberg: It is my home space. So it makes sense. Unfortunately, the dampness does not agree with my bones. But it's yeah, there's something about just like the pull of saltwater that when it's not there, there's an ache. And anytime I fly home and I land and I get that first whiff of salt water, like you're like many miles away from the ocean when you fly in to the Halifax airport.

grace w boyd: Oh, but you can smell it. It's there. 

ash alberg: You can smell it. It's just, oh man, it … there's something so deeply satisfying about like getting home. And it's so grounding while being this like terrifying force of nature, that is like way stronger than we will ever be. I love it.

grace w boyd: Yeah. Yeah. So I've been using, like terrible has been a word I've been trying to reintegrate into like my writing, but also just my daily speaking, I don't mean terrible as oh, terrible, bad, but terrible also has the secondary meaning where it's this big, this overwhelming sensation. 

There's like terrible, the sky is terrible. It doesn't mean bad, it means this big overwhelming force. And I feel being so close to this terrible force has really changed me. So I get to walk the tide in and out sometimes, I get carried by these waves that all of a sudden go from 2 feet to 10 feet.

Like it's such a terrible force in, in the sense of big and powerful. Like how can we not be so impacted by this?

ash alberg: Yes!

grace w boyd: It's … Yeah, Like I, I know some people that have lived here that have been like, “Oh yeah, every once in a while I go to the ocean.” It's … we literally live like a step away!

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. 

grace w boyd: Put your hand out for crying out loud! 

ash alberg: Yeah, no, it's bizarre to me that like folks can spend … and I think maybe this is part of it for both of us, right, is that like we … travel is like very much embedded in our bones and moving around in different spaces is very much in our bones. And so the idea of going to a place and not experiencing, especially something as impactful as that large of a force of nature that has literally carved out the rest of the space, like why would you not go in and do that?

And then also let's visit the tidal pools and let's like wander around through the different … like the way that it has impacted the plants and the way like for you digging through and finding the different types of clay, yeah. It's red clay, but then what is beyond that?

And like just, yeah. Every once in a while, I'm like, I want Grace to teach me ceramics and then I'm like, mah, someday I will. And also that is a rabbit hole that if I start going down, I will never come back out.

grace w boyd: It is a rabbit hole! Oh my gosh. And so like my ceramics rabbit hole here has led me down … so I, in like my undergrad, my friends were like geography nerds slash like getting into geology. And then I became a geology neeeerd. ‘Cause it was like, oh man, did you know that there's this kind of many rocks and like this kind of dirt and this is how old it is??

So I started this little like nerd, like focus in Manitoba, ‘cause like the prairies are all like based on a giant like prehistoric lake bed that was like a glacier field. But on the east coast here, there are three to four, like tectonic plates that at some point or another have come together to make most of the Eastern kind of like land masses.

Like in the location where I am in within a four-hour driving circle, I am meeting four different types of land masses that have literally jammed themselves together. So I have everything from like new volcanic material to old volcanic material to like ancient core material that had been like surfaced, like billions of years ago to like fresh, muddy, like gooey material that's been like rotting. 

Like and dirt, like rocks take like eons to rot, but that's what clay is, just rotten dirt. So I've got so much like variety here. My little nerdy clay brain is just going bananas. 

ash alberg: That is amazing. 

grace w boyd: So I've got like right now, I have about a hundred different yogurt containers, full of different clay samples from around here. 

ash alberg: That’s amazing. 

grace w boyd: Like I look like a crazy lady. Yeah. 

ash alberg: Oh my god, but that's so cool. And then what does that then create? Like now I'm just thinking about, I'm like looking at my mug and I'm like, how old are you actually? Oh fuck. That's so cool!

grace w boyd: And everything is like, it's so much older than time. Like earth itself as it exists, like the things that we're using as clay are so old! We will never be as old as this. That's the way that I imagine it, but it's just, it's so cool. It's so magic. 

ash alberg: That's, yes. Now I'm thinking about, what are all of the life forces that in the process of like rotting down and composting into this, what are the things that are then like embedded in your mug? Who’s in here? 

grace w boyd: Yeah, who’s in here! I, when I was a preteen, I was really into Terry Pratchett and his Discworld series so just like, what a wonderful world to build in, but there was this one viewpoint, like sometimes he does like big zoom ins and zoom outs of Discworld and everything that's there. 

And one of the big zoom outs was the world from the perspective of mountains. And these mountains can feel themselves growing and falling and shrinking and stuff. But to the mountains, all the rocks are like running around and then all the sand is like vibrating ‘cause they're just getting smaller and smaller. And then the rest of the earth is like water moving. 

And so to these mountains, people are so, like they can't perceive us because we're just such a quick blip of time. Like trees and stuff, they’re like *pop* to them. But to, to the mountains, they're just these things that are breathing in and out basically and everything in between. So whenever I think of clay, I always have that imagination in my brain where it's man, I don't even matter. By the time that I'm clay, like that mountain's not even done breathing a breath.

Like … 

ash alberg: Oh, my god. That's such a cool …

grace w boyd: I'm like a drop in the bucket of time. Isn’t that ridiculous?

ash alberg: Ugh! That's so fucking cool. I love Terry Pratchett. Just so good. 

grace w boyd: I do too!

ash alberg: Oh my god. Okay. So how does …

grace w boyd: I know, tangent city here. 

ash alberg: So many tangents, there's just going to be a bajillion tangents. 

grace w boyd: We knew it was going to happen. 

ash alberg: Yeah, we did. It's fine. [Laughs.] This is going to be the four hour episode. [Snorts.]

grace w boyd: Sorry everybody! It’s worth it, I swear.

ash alberg: [Cackles.] I love it. We swear all the time, it's fine. 

How does magic and rit --  now that we've just talked about like time and eons and just all ritual and all of these things, how does … outside of your art practice, how does ritual and magic impact your day to day? And I should say that the way that we met was literally at a friend's open studio and you had made paint brushes with roadkill squirrel fur, and then you had also made a mobile, like a little like mobile or wind chime sort of thing with the squirrel bones.

And this was how we met and I knew that we were kindred spirits. [Laugh-snorts] [Grace giggles.] So this is an introduction to us.

grace w boyd: That’s one of my favourite brushes. Like squirrel tail, man. If there's any brush makers out there, I’m going to keep spreading the good word of like squirrel tail brushes, because they are so nice. They're so nice. 

ash alberg: They’re so soft! And there's so many squirrels that just end up killing themselves, literally on the wires all the time.

grace w boyd: Yeah. And I'm like, what am I going to do? I’m just going to let that sit there? I'm going to give him an honorable mention in my existence. 

ash alberg: There we go. [Laughs.]

grace w boyd: Oh man. I know. I know. Oh, okay. So I think to unwrap my magical present, I think that my magical past needs a little bit of acknowledgement.

So especially regarding like ritual, altar is a big thing for me. Like I'm a big altar maker and I always have been, and in my early, early, early existences, like kid Grace running around a forest, like mom and dad still, I would, I pick up everything. So it's, my world was always the objects that I could pick up.

So whether it was a leaf, a twig, a rock, like a really cool piece of string that I just so happened to find like my pockets were always full. And then when my pockets were full, mom and dad's pockets started becoming full because it was just like, you can't carry these anymore. [Ash giggles.] 

So from an early age, I was always a collector and that started like the practice and the magic of collecting. So my mom actually had to start sewing extra pockets onto my clothing for me. 

ash alberg: Oh my god, I love that. 

grace w boyd: And the rule had to become, you want it? You carry it. 

ash alberg: Oh my god I love that so much! [Both laugh.]

grace w boyd: And they were always like great pockets. Like I could always fit all my rocks and stuff in them, but that --

ash alberg: It’s just that also there's … that shit gets heavy. I say this from also shared experience of, you want to take everything home.

grace w boyd: You better … And then, so like I've always had baskets of rocks or like piles of rocks and sticks and things. And I love my sticks. 

And then it became a practice of laying them out and treating them like treasures. So everything was always a treasure. It didn't matter what it was, if I found it, if I picked it up, if it was important enough to call to me to pick it up, it was a treasure. So like twigs, like sticks, you name it. Leaves. 

And then when it became too many things to lay out, they became collections. So then it was the jar of the green rocks and the jar of the red rocks, the jar of the purple rocks. So it's like very organized, but then like very, it almost looked like, you see these historical witch’s pantries or whatever, or like apothecary kind of things.

And I was like, instead of a jar of eye of Newt to be completely cheesy, I had a jar of, these are my leaves! Like these are my brown leaves, these are my oak leaves. [Ash snorts.] It was like that.

ash alberg: I love it.

grace w boyd: So I have since had to taper my collecting because as an adult, if you collect your entire life, you have many things. 

ash alberg: Yes, that's true. We do get to the hoarding puddle.

grace w boyd: So my house is still like wall-to-wall filled with little altars, but now they're just organized in a slightly different manner. So I have my cup of blue jay feathers and I have my little collection of crow feathers and things, and my porcupine quills live in a certain place. So I think to have ritual in my everyday life is just that altar.

Yeah. I think that's my biggest, like most prominent, everyday, like thing is my little magpie, like altars everywhere. 

ash alberg: Oh, my god, I fucking love this so much. Also just because it just speaks to my own soul and like how I function as well. [Giggles.] This is why we are the two halves of tiny coven because our witchcraft is the same. 

grace w boyd: Like we get it, you understand.

ash alberg: It does, it is a tricky thing though, where it's as you get older, there is only so much that you can collect before your house becomes overrun.

And like, how do you organize the shit? Like I'm literally over, just like to my left is my kitchen table that is currently full of literally Tupperware tubs and by Tupperware, I mean like old butter containers and yogurt containers of shells that I have collected on a couple of trips. That's not all of my shells.

And I'm trying to think of okay, how many mobiles and how large will those mobiles get that I can make with these so that I can justify how many, because I am already using the largest ones for burning dishes and soap holders. And now I still have too many of others. So it's and I know that the next time I go to the water, then there will be more that I collect and take home.

So …

grace w boyd: I know, story of my life. There's always more. 

ash alberg: We just need more shelves. We need more shelves always. And then like things hanging down from the ceiling.

grace w boyd: Yeah. Oh, another like magical reference, but I've always pictured my final bedroom, the bedroom that I breathe my last breath in is going to look like a Howl's bedroom from Howl's Moving Castle, [Ash gasps] just like charms and bobs and bits and things. But I have a long life ahead of me, so I can't rush there.

And I, I know that … [Ash cackles.] But that's going to be my space. [Laughs.] I'm sure.

ash alberg: I love that so much. I think it's tricky for like folks who try to live with us at times, because …

grace w boyd: I know. 

ash alberg: Like we, especially where we feel the life force of these things and that's why, they called to us and that's why we've taken them home. And we organize them eventually …

grace w boyd: Yeah, eventually.

ash alberg: … into their various spots.

But yeah, maybe for a while then they like set it in their Tupperware tub and eventually they become a thing, but it's …

grace w boyd: But for somebody living with you or I like it’s …

ash alberg: Oh my god.

grace w boyd: It's a process, it's an exercise, I think for them. And it's also one of the things for us where we're like, I'm so sorry. Like ah, ah ah, I can't let these rocks go. Like I say this … Right now, so I've, this summer I had a couple of dear sweet friends of mine and I helped skin a fox that had been hit by a car.

So we had to, it was a group activity between the three of us, like very sacred, very soft. And it was one of those like honorable things where we learned that. So as we're talking about this collection, so I have fox pelt drawing on my deck right now next to some recently cleaned whale baleen from the beach next to some like plants that I'm trying to sun dry, like next to some like driftwood that's like finishing curing on our deck. 

ash alberg: Yes! That sounds so perfect.

grace w boyd: My existence is so … [Giggles.]

ash alberg: Oh, it's so beautiful though. But it is this thing of we, we …

grace w boyd: Collect and wait. 

ash alberg: Yeah, collect and wait, and that's the thing, right? Like it's time, there's curing involved. Oh my god. I'm doing a tanning workshop this weekend that I'm so excited about with Mara. So I will let you know how that goes.

But it feels like the, like …

grace w boyd: Oh, that's going to be so dreamy. 

ash alberg: Oh, my god, such a dream. And I'm just like, this is like the last, it feels like the last kind of like key that I need to like open a door into my skillset of things that I am trying to cultivate as my skills. And I'm like, this is the last really important one.

grace w boyd: And you're such an appreciator of like furs and pelts and like the process, right? Like hunter as like lifestyle and way of existing within the world is a thing. And I just like I've, I don't know if I've ever met another witch that quite appreciates it the way that you do as a fiber art and as like an earth art witch.

ash alberg: Like the creature that … I think it's also there's something that comes from living in cold climates and deeply appreciating the … for its ability to protect us. 

Like at any time, it's also like, whenever I start talking about fur that I know there's going to be somebody who that's like mah mah mah, and I'm just like, the white supremacy that has attached itself to the concept of fur is so frustrating to me because I'm like, if you're going to bitch at me about my use of fur when I live in a climate where it is -40 on a regular basis in the winter, fuck you. Try and live up here without fur.

grace w boyd: Yeah, no kidding.

ash alberg: And also without your plastic alternatives to fur, because that is the alternative, is that you're going to use synthetic fibers that are some form of a plastic.

Like, all of your faux furs are actually just plastic. So for me, like when I …

grace w boyd: And they're plastics that produce thousands of pieces of microplastic per garment. 

ash alberg: Exactly!

grace w boyd: Like these are things that shed and that rot, right? So like my fur coat rots, like it goes back to the earth, a hundred percent. Like the moths that feed off of it are still going back. Like it has substance and cycle.

So I also, part of my many experiences in life was living on Baffin Island. And I was based in Iqaluit, which was wonderful. And I've never been so lucky in my entire life as to get that experience, but fur was survival. And as much as of course, you want to look good and it's a garment and it's a thing, but like the warmest things for me to walk to work in were my sealskin mitts. The only way that I wouldn't get like frostbite on my face was because of my wolverine ruff around my parka jacket.

ash alberg: Yes, exactly.

grace w boyd: That's the things that you benefit from it. And of course I can put a fleece thing up, but like the fleece gets wet and then it gets cold and it's still made of plastic. Or like that, like faux fleece. It's not like a fleece. And then yeah, I had down-filled mittens that I would wear, but the plastic on them always got cold and crunchy.

So it was like, I'm, I have this battle of, yes, like the made thing made by industry might be better for the animals. But if everybody just had one good pair of like fur mitts in the climate where you need them, I'm not … 

[Both talking at the same time.]

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. If you don't need it, then also … 

grace w boyd: It’s not like somebody in the middle of the desert needs fur.

ash alberg: Oh my god. Yeah, exactly. And it's also like it's how is that fur being taken, right? This is also my thing. Whenever, like inevitably the people who complain to me about use of fur and leather and skins are white people living in urban spaces.

I'm like, okay, cool. So you are also often somebody who can afford to go and purchase a higher quality synthetic option, which is, that's fine. But especially if you're living in an area where it doesn't get cold enough to need these things, and also like you don't … you're purchasing things that have been manufactured in a different place where there has been the same impact actually on the animal population, in terms of like deforestation, loss of habitat, destruction of habitat, mass extinction, water.

grace w boyd: Water. The water. You know what, it’s the water of all those things is what blows my mind 

ash alberg: Exactly. And like those animals in that area have also been impacted and it's actually a lot less regulated than … the folks that live on the land are, have intimate relationships with their animal populations, are aware of okay, this animal, this season is clearly in distress. We're not going to be over-harvesting this year.

And meanwhile oh, this has thrown out of whack. There's too many of these animals. So we are going to harvest this year, this particular … like this is it's something where as we have, and by we, those of us who are like removed via capitalism from being on the land. Like you, you lose that awareness of all of these very integrated signals of, is the earth in balance or not?

And we have obviously the very big signs that right now the earth is not in balance, but there are also much smaller, more localized signs of whether a local environment is in balance or not. And so I will always trust the folks that live with that land more directly and know that land more intimately than I will ever trust somebody that's like sitting in their high rise condo and is, “I don't think that this is okay.”

I'll be like, cool, great. Let's like have a conversation about nuance after you're done eating your like GMO soy Amazon-sourced tofu that got processed over in Asia and then …

grace w boyd: Packed in plastic, shipped across the ocean. 

ash alberg: Like … 

And that's not to say that there's not alternatives that can work. It's just that …

grace w boyd: But I, I think it's keeping those alternatives in balance. It's always a balancing act. So I can't … Okay. I feel like this kind of comes into one of those like consent conversations where it's, don't yuck, someone's yum. Some people want to wear an animal-friendly garment and some people want to wear … I don't, like I'm pretty neutral on the fact, if the best option for me is an animal friendly garment, then I will do that vegan animal-friendly garment. But 10 times out of 10, almost every time, 

ash alberg: 9.9 times. 

grace w boyd: Almost every time, however you want to do those odds. 9.999 times out of 10, like the animal garment or the organic garment for the thing made is the better choice for me. 

ash alberg: Yes.

grace w boyd: Whether that’s something that somebody hunted, I’ve made fabric or fur objects out of offcuts from factory like sheepskin places or from like fur places, there's options for the person to take it on themselves. And I feel like there's a, definitely an appreciation of that process. Especially when it comes to environmental clauses, like in indigenous environmental views, I feel are important no matter where you are and they're not universal.

 ash alberg: No!

grace w boyd: I feel like there's this like funny blanket statement that sometimes happens where people go, “This is the indigenous way.” And it's have you actually spoken to any indigenous people in your area? Are you aware? Yeah, are you familiar with here? 

So it's like living … oh my goodness. I have a great example of this right now, which I feel like if there's any kind of listeners, Canadian listeners who are on the east coast, you're probably really familiar right now with some of the recent, and not so recent because it's also been a historical thing, the battle of Mi’kmaq lobster rights. 

ash alberg: Yes!

grace w boyd: Yeah.

So there's, it's by lobster pot and it's a tagged pot and there's only allowed to be so many tags per pot, like per fisher, like per season. And the season is small … or it's not that small, but I mean like, it's a small season for lobster. And the number of tags that are given to Mi’kmaq individuals is like nowhere near where it should be compared to tags going to commercial.

And I mean like small commercial and large commercial, big and small, C, right? Just to be perfectly clear here, it's a range, but the Mi’kmaq have the right to fish and trap lobster seasonally and throughout the year. That's their, that's the agreement, and it's because the number of tabs that they get is enough to support them, supposedly. 

I disagree with a lot of the, I guess the saying where it's, oh, like they can't sell or they can't do this. And it's that they versus us thing, or they versus them, like the moment you start drawing those lines where it's, you're comparing “this is chasing wealth,” but this is in this case, it's chasing sea cockroaches as wealth. 

ash alberg: Yeah. Exactly.

grace w boyd: But the … what that means as somebody fishing to survive or somebody fishing to make an honest, modest, comparable life living versus somebody, a group, fishing to make a large economic profit, right? There's, those are two very different things. And the moment you start drawing those lines between the two and they're not coexisting, and people are fighting over this, the sea bug wealth. 

And it's, and it shouldn't be an argument, the appreciation for a Mi’kmaq lobster fisher, to understand like the practice and the small scale of what that is actually worth versus like a large, a large commercial option or large pot option are two like so removed things.

I feel like the larger you get, the more blind you get. It's like the --

ash alberg: You’re like pulling yourself away –

[Both talking at the same time.]

grace w boyd: It’s like the [inaudible] getting made, right? Like you, you get like big … I'm going to call it a big money view, but there's gotta be like a better way to say it.

ash alberg: But that is it, right? And that's the problem is that the large commercial sides of it, regardless of who is running the commercial side of it, but once you get that large, you become divorced from the fact that these are still coming from natural resources and/or as a result of the industry, have an impact on those natural resources.

And so that is when it becomes a problem, right? Like I eat a shit ton of meat and my body needs it. I have also been vegetarian and vegan in my life. It does not work for my body.

grace w boyd: But this is what works best for your body, is eating good meat. 

ash alberg: Exactly, and it's, if vegan works well … I was having this conversation yesterday with one of my other dear ones. If eating vegan works well for your body and you live in a climate where you can get access to all of the nutrients that you need year-round to eat vegan locally, great. If you cannot guarantee that, then you also cannot say that it is automatically better for the environment, because once you start looking at the nuance, once you start looking at the carbon footprint of things, once you start looking at okay what animal lack of habitation has resulted as a result of us needing to process these things and then moving them around the world, versus if you are able to source your meat from local sources where the whole animal is being used.

Like, there's so much nuance that is involved and that's not even adding in the element of class and access and knowing how to cook and having that skill set of how do you like make a nutritious meal within whatever your budget is?

There's so much fucking nuance with these things and to say…

grace w boyd: Exactly. Oh, I have a tangent for like local food stuff. It is so good. It'll be like a quickie, I swear. 

So one of, one of my dear ones that I live with here, her name is Kara Friesen, and she has a food meal plan kind of project that she got going. It's her business, it's called PieceMeal.

And the whole point of her business was that you get three meals a week, like a food box, like a prepared meal kit. But it's all locally sourced. So it's all local farmers. 

There's no meat in it. She had a local egg option for awhile, but it's all locally sourced greens and veggies and pickles. And she's gotten local grains. There's been local like mushrooms. There's a guy that grows mushrooms here.

And it's all of these like local things. And she gives credit to all the farmers. She's in local places here, but what a wonderful way to bring some of that awareness into urban space. [Ash laughs.] So there's, we're pretty lucky here. There's a pretty healthy farmer's market culture. 

So those … yeah. Oh, very much. I know. I know. We're so lucky to just drive to the valley and bring home like a month's worth of groceries. It's ridiculous. 

ash alberg: It’s so nice. Year-round.

grace w boyd: Even within that, like within urban spaces, some people just don't feel like they have the access to that local food.

And this is almost like a hundred, like that hundred-mile diet. I feel like this is as close to the that with a meal kit as I've ever seen successful. 

ash alberg: Amazing!

grace w boyd: And what a cool way to educate yourself in an urban environment about like food stability and sustainability and awareness. Like it's just awareness.

She also does … so any excess and a couple like food boxes a week go to people in need. So she works with community engagement, definitely. People that know people in need of food kind of thing. And it's not meant to be like a food bank kind of sell thing. It's you get good, fresh produce instructions, get it all, like you get what you need to survive.

ash alberg: And that's the thing, right? Is that like …

grace w boyd: Blows my mind. 

ash alberg: … the skill set is part of it. And when, like, when families have been, for any reason, divorced from the practice of learning how to cook, then it's … and knowing how to take these whole things and turn them into meals, then it like, it's actually significantly cheaper to be purchasing meat and/or vegetable like meals, whole foods in bulk, and then breaking that down into meals. But that is assuming that you have the skillset to know how to turn those things into a full nutritious meal. 

If you don't have that skill set, then you're going to go with the pre-packaged processed whatevers because that, if they're on sale or they look cheap then yeah, getting, say five of those looks cheaper than buying the bulk pack of ground beef because the ground beef is exponentially like whatever the chunk of money is. That ground beef could have lasted you for many more meals, but if you don't know how to turn it into meals, then it's, you're like, okay, what are my options?

And it's, I feel like we've gone on so many tangents, but I'm okay with this. I feel like those basic skillsets, like the home economics things that used to be like our shop, all our shop options when we were in school, like they're actually really necessarily skills. Yeah. It's life skills that by removing them from the school system, then it like … not every family has easy access to be able to like engage with these various skills and to pass them down generationally.

And there's … by putting them back into the school system, then we could be helping these next generations of kids that are going to grow up and have their own families and dah dah. But I, yeah. And it's also … 

grace w boyd: No, it's … and I think food, like food is a ritual. 

ash alberg: Yes!

grace w boyd: So every day your body needs to consume calories, like on, on a fundamental level. My biology, the way that our body operates as a bio machine, like, I need fuel.  

ash alberg: Literally just breathing. Yeah. just like waking up, sitting up and then breathing consumes calories.

grace w boyd: Exactly! Just that my existence needs fuel. And I think so I, as a functional potter, so my big thing is my everyday rituals. Like 90% of the importance of my brain function is from meal to meal. So I love breakfast, like breakfasts matter so much to me. Like I love my morning coffee. I love my like fancy breakfast.

And I know, oh, a toasted egg isn't that fancy. But it was like, to me, that is fancy. Like I watch people walk out the door with a pop tart, it's just it's not the same. It's not the same. Or maybe I want breakfast hash, or maybe I want a really well-made like smoothie or yogurt or something, but that ritual of sitting and having breakfast, and then that ritual of making lunch. 

I like made lunches. So I will admit part of me is can I make a big supper the night before so you can have your leftovers or have time in the day to make a lunch. That is definitely a luxury that I have allotted myself time for, so the life practice that I live in my day to day gives me time. I'm very lucky that I can do that. 

But the importance of the magic and the ritual of the meal, I think is something that I love to focus on. I love the magic of a meal. There is nothing that warms, like my sour, grumpy soul if I've had a bad day, [Ash snorts] than like a big warm bowl of homemade soup that I've just made.

And yeah, I might be getting my grumps out while I'm making my soup, but the moment I sit down it's just as much, it's just as important to me as like a hug, or somebody saying, “I love you.” Like that bowl of food, that nourishment, that ritual of sitting down and feeding myself, it feeds me completely. Yeah. 

ash alberg: There's something like, the “I love you” bit really speaks to me in terms of … I think that's why kitchen witches, like so many people, even if they like, can't quite identify, like how they do their witchcraft practice or how it like sits as an identity for them. I feel like that's why often kitchen witch is like the default, because for so many of us, whether we have a good relationship with cooking for ourselves or not, the way that we show love and that we share love is by making food for the people in our lives that we love, whether that's making food for your kids or making food for a partner on a special day or just like on special occasions, certain things that you make a point of making or baking a loaf of bread to take to a potluck.

There is, it's an easy way of infusing love and intention into things that are then nourishing our bodies and the … our earlier conversation about how the earth is so old. And when you're then like consuming things out of these ceramics that are so old, the life force that is in that, and it makes me think of … like when we're eating animal products and byproducts, then we of course know that there is life force attached to that. Like it's a very … 

grace w boyd: That’s inherent. 

ash alberg: Yeah, like it's a very obvious thing, but I think the other … this is the other thing that annoys me with the, like the very specific, very limited vegan argument. I will say right off here that not, obviously not every vegan is this like very narrow-minded, like very privileged mindset that is very rigid and unwavering.

I, my favorite thing is having conversations with vegans who are super cognizant of all of the nuances and have also figured out how to make their vegan diet and vegan lifestyle fit within those nuances. I think that's a really interesting place to be living. But the thing that drives me nuts about the militant vegan mindset is the like lack of acknowledgement that plants also have a life force and plants have their own vocabularies and their own ways of speaking. Like mushrooms have whole fucking conversations under the earth with each other and also with all of … 

grace w boyd: They have interspecies conversations! They have interspecies conversations!

[Both talking at the same time.]

ash alberg: Yes, they warn everybody else, like all of the other plants! And so plants are always speaking and we're just not necessarily attuned to their language. So to say this cow has value and I'm not going to eat that but then to not also offer that same honor to carrots and potatoes and your … 

grace w boyd: And your lettuce.

ash alberg: Yeah, your lettuce and your mushrooms and your tomatoes and your berries. If you're, when you're growing your own food and …

grace w boyd: It's like, life is life. At the end of the day like the way to read that for me is that life is like, it doesn't matter if it's yeah, the life of my cabbage or the life of my cow or the life of my chicken or the eggs or whatever it is. Like life is life. Energy is energy. 

And that's why I'm so like cheesy, like “life is life” but it's so true! Oh, man. 

I, yeah, I, okay. So I have another like side note to that. I've been really lucky as my life path has lived in me, let me live in a couple of places, some intentional communities, some very like collective groups of people. And one of my favorites was living on Peter Von Tiesenhausen’s land.

And it was called Common Opulence, was the name of the residency. And it was this great, a really thoughtful, intentional space. Like we lived in tents and I lived in my van, we had an outdoor kitchen. Like we had like wood-fired shower. Like we had a garden. 

And then we help out as many of the neighbors as we could, that was a big part of, it was like, okay, we wanted to get involved with the community. So like we bought baled hay. Like we got to hang out with some alpacas, we got to garden, we got to make art, like we got to cook for each other everyday. But one of the biggest things that we got to do was help slaughter chickens.

And I don't mean bring them to a conveyor and slaughter them. If you wanted to participate, it was your choice, but it was like, you picked up a chicken, you picked up the ax and you took that life, you took that energy. And then the appreciation for that is your choice, and that's the biggest thing. 

So we had some, we had some vegans in our group that were just like, “I just don't eat animals and this is my reasoning, why.” But we had vegans that participated in learning what it was to take a life and what that means in the long run. And I think that's something that's really important.

If you want to eat meat, even if you don't want to eat meat, you don't have to take the life of an animal. I'm not saying that everybody has to. I think it's an important exercise if you want to have a firm opinion one way or the other is to at least be around that experience. 

And I don't mean watching like a documentary. I don't mean watching those really horrible, sad videos of animals like getting … 

ash alberg: Yes, like the meat industry complex is a fucking shit show. That is where it goes so, so wrong. 

grace w boyd: That is black, dark, like angry magic. And I don't mean like the good kind of magic. Like that is what happens when people with power get out of control. That is ugly. 

But the farmer who has 75 chickens that's the most they've ever had and every single one of them gets calmed, gets axed and gets processed on the farm in a farm field with 10 people. That is the experience that I'm talking about. So if … like we did chickens, they gave us chickens that day to eat. We ate them the next day. It was wonderful. It was a whole experience.

So we got to feed them a couple days ahead of time. We got to hang out with them. Holding something and calming it before like you take its existence … like it's not it's whole existence, but its existence as in its heartbeat essentially. But what a thing to learn! 

And I'm not saying that everybody has to swing the ax to use that, but to understand that chicken, as an example, it doesn't come from a Styrofoam container that at my supermarket, like this life has a life of its … it ate its own things. My choice to consume it takes a life. 

ash alberg: Yes. And I think this is the thing that I appreciate most about hunters. Not game hunters. I actually think game hunting is like the most bullshit, like such a fucking like human thing to do that is just so disgusting.

grace w boyd: I know! Like what? 

ash alberg: So disgusting. Like game hunting to me, I'm like, no, you actually, you're a terrible garbage human. Go drink some Kool-Aid and die in a ditch.

grace w boyd: Yeah.

ash alberg: But hunting for … 

grace w boyd: But somebody hunting, hunting for survival or a native hunter who gets animal tags and it's, I get one deer a year, you know?

ash alberg: Yes. And you're going to also use that whole deer. And in order to get the deer, there is so much … there's a relationship that has to develop. You have to become intimately familiar with the way that deer is moving. And by the time this episode comes out, then folks will have already had the opportunity to hear a whole bunch of this conversation with Christa Whiteman, who is a hunter, and her experience having done that with her first buck. 

Like it's … and I think you, you hit on a really important part: if you want to consume meat and you want to be using these animals, then it is also … and/or if you don't want to, and you have really strong opinions about it, then it is very important for you to have the experience of at least whether you take the life yourself or not, knowing what it is to be in that space and experience that energy when it happens. If you're going to be eating beef, then you need to know, what is that experience of going from a live cow that honestly yeah, they've got really cute puppy dog eyes. Cows are super intelligent. They're really sweet and loving.

grace w boyd: They’re so smart and they're so kind. Ohh!

ash alberg: Yeah, they’re just so loving. Pigs, on the other hand, are very smart and very vicious.

grace w boyd: Very vicious. Pigs are jerks.

ash alberg: Like all you need is for a pig to chase you. They smell blood and they go after you 

grace w boyd: I know. Isn’t that scary?!

ash alberg: It's wild. If you are somebody who bleeds, don't go in during those times.

grace w boyd: Don't go near the pig pen. Yeah. 

ash alberg: But I like, becoming more intimately familiar with those animals and then being in that space for that experience, that can then help to clarify for yourself, how do you feel about this?

And so if you're going to consume meat, then you understand what is involved in consuming that meat. If you're not going to consume meat then it is because you have that experience of, “I experienced this, I don't want to do this myself. And so I am going to consume these other things to get the nutrients that my body needs.” But it's such a weird … it's again, this thing of we've divorced ourselves so much, especially in urban spaces, from the experience of how these things come to be in our lives, right? Like we go to the supermarket and we buy shrink wrap, Styrofoam, completely cleaned from any blood. 

grace w boyd: Like it's not even meat at that point. Like what is it?

ash alberg: I know! Exactly. And then the … and we do the same with our clothing. We like go and we purchase a thing … 

grace w boyd: Fast fashion.

ash alberg: Yeah. Like off the rack, there's no acknowledgement of like, how did this come to be? What was involved in this? 

And then also for our ceramics, right? Like you go and you buy like some melamine plates from Superstore. And again, we're like not thinking about what … and some of this is convenience and some of it is at times necessity, but I think it is also as creatures who like to collect things and we have deep love for the things that we surround ourselves with, there is also a detriment in having too many things. 

If we actually understood what was involved in making all of these things and how much work and labor goes into them and energy and life force, then we would care for the items that we have more and they would last longer, right? 

grace w boyd: So much longer. 

ash alberg: It's … yeah.

grace w boyd: Yeah, I, yeah. Yeah.

I make a point. I make a, I definitely make a point. If my friends do not have a good mug or a good bowl in their life, like if I go over and it's all … if you want to buy vintage and secondhand and stuff, like I totally approve. I'm not saying that everybody needs like a whole set of Grace Boyd originals. [Ash laughs.] It would be great … 

ash alberg: I will be happy when that is my house.

grace w boyd: Hit me up. Yeah. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: [Snort-laughs.] Oh god.

grace w boyd: But in the sense of, if you do not have an object that you were even aware of how it's made, right? At least one of these things in your everyday life, I definitely take it upon myself to try not to be very proud about it, but to definitely it educate a little bit. It's like, I made this, it's made from natural materials.

I … sometimes even time, like letting know people know that it's not just a one day thing. It takes me two weeks to make a batch of things from start to finish, or it'll take me this long to do this and that. And I have to fire it and I have work and like labor and people go, “Oh!” 

It's almost … I don't know. It's like learning something so simple, but like once it all makes sense, right? Oh, how to turn on an oven for crying out loud? Like until … like it's just the magical hotbox, but the moment, oh, you push a button, this is how the thing works. Oh, you dig clay, you make a mug, you use a wheel, you have all these skills. 

That's a very narrow comparison. [Chuckles.] Like once … and you appreciate it.

ash alberg: I think this is a really nice segue into our next question, which to be fair, we've been talking about around in different ways, but how does magic and ritual play a factor into your art and your craft and your work? And I think especially what I love about your work is how, regardless of what it is that you are making, and regardless of what particular thing you are trying in your artistic practice at any given time and in your craft practice at any given time, there's always sometimes very literally the imprint of the land that you are working with on the, on the ceramics, right? 

And it's also that literally you have dug up the clay itself and also collected the glazes and made the glazes from those things. And some of my favorite mugs have ash thrown on them from the fire. And that creates beautiful colors and things. But the … I've got like mugs from you that you literally took cedar bow and imprinted it onto, or like you took porcelain … the, the mugs that have the tree knots where you like created the mold and then it's so … I'm just going on so many half tangents here.

grace w boyd: No go for it. All the same tangent. 

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah. ‘Cause yes, it all connects back in. How does magic and ritual play into the way that you are creating your work and the way that you approach your work?

grace w boyd: I think this kind of goes like earlier, when we were talking about like how old like clay is and how old something is and the lives that it's lived before. And I believe that we, as human beings exist in this form, having lived many previous existences. A big scientific term, which isn't that big and scientific, but the idea of that haptic memory, the memory of touching action, the memory of experience.

ash alberg: Yes.

grace w boyd: Like almost everybody I know, knows what it feels like to pick up a leaf and have that sensation. What dirt and grass under your feet feels. You know what walking on the beach feels like, you know what tree bark feels like. To some degree, either in this body, in this form, or in a previous body or a previous form.

And a lot of the times I think what I'm really searching for is the identification and connection of the things that I'm making into my ceramics as an activator for your haptic memory. So I'm trying to make your body, or I'm trying to encourage your body to make those connections to places and experiences that are organic or natural or of a different place or of a different time. 

So the cedar, I think is a great example. So the cedar on the west coast is considered a giving tree, like cedar gives. Cedar gives medicine and cedar gives material and cedar gives healing and cedar's a giver, right? You make things out of cedar and you create things. Like cedar mother, it's a big giver of energy.

And so to take cedar and put it onto an object, not everybody knows what a cedar bow looks like, but everybody can feel that and have a connection to a sensation. And I think, even if you have no idea what a cedar tree is, I don't know what rock you've been living under, but like … [both laugh.]

ash alberg: If you've lived in the north, you should absolutely know what cedar is. [Laughs.]

grace w boyd: Please, for the love of goodness. 

ash alberg: Yeah. [Snorts and sighs.]

grace w boyd: But like that sensation has a triggering effect in ways of touching past self, present self, future self, even. Like having a, having that curiosity of touch is so important. And that's something that I really carry as far as what magic in those spaces can do for us. 

ash alberg: Yes. 

grace w boyd: So I am so in love with the idea of somebody’s, I guess perhaps like inner self being triggered and experiencing that magic of what an object can do. Not necessarily just the leaf, but like the mug that leaf is imprinted on. 

ash alberg: Yes. [Sighs.]

grace w boyd: Yeah. I'm currently through my thesis work right now for my MFA, I am experimenting with local materials as glaze material. So I'm working with a couple of very simple traditional Western and like Eastern glaze recipes. 

So nothing is, I guess, uneducated. So I have a guess about what could potentially happen every time I start a new glaze blind. The chemistry is all there. That history is already done and experiences are there, but the materials are very unique. 

So I've been using ash and clay and sand and mineral deposits found here to make my glazes. And I firmly believe that these glazes look like this place. So to have a glaze made of beach sand and an iron deposit and a happenstance copper deposit, and have it look like that place is so important to me.

And I'm beginning to really develop right now, a color palette. Like even at, my decoration has changed. I'm not a big decorator. Like I don't paint on pots very often, but certain brush strokes have really started to speak to me about what this landscape is and what it's saying to me. I've gotten to spend a lot of time looking at a horizon line on the ocean and everybody thinks, yeah, it's ocean needs sky. It's one color. 

And I was like, that is its own universe of palette. Like you cannot tell me that is a straight line of nothingness. It is so exciting. And those colors are in the land and in the landscape. So you just have to open your eyes a little bit and see them.

ash alberg: Oh, my god. I love that so much. And it's also being intimately familiar with that land myself, just yeah. And just the layers. Like my family is … I grew up going to Parrsboro, which is on the Bay of Fundy and literally Parrsboro has the highest tides in the world. And so because of that, just the layers that you are every single day, like there's … they have a dinosaur museum there because …

grace w boyd: It’s so cool!

ash alberg: It’s the best, and they have found the world's tiniest dinosaurs at this land or on this land. And it's literally, you will find the dinosaurs and you have 12 hours to go and do that archeological dig because the tides are going to cycle through and they're going to take whatever was there right back out with them because they are such intense, powerful things.

And so yeah, the layers of the land there that are then being exposed every single day and the colors that come from that are just like … it's so deeply beautiful and …

grace w boyd: That's earth magic, I think, in one of its rarest states. Like the … quite simply put is literal earth, like literal layers of rock. And it's like spell upon spell, life upon life, decay upon decay. Like it's so, like it's ephemerally permanent in the sense that like it's constantly recycling.

So as we are adding, layers are getting taken away. Like it is such a cycle to its purest state. Like it is in my, I guess … [Both laugh.] I think the most practical visual application of earth magic. Yeah. This recycle. 

ash alberg: I fucking love that so much. I also am like really excited for these particular things that you are making right now. I'm like, I’mma want one.

grace w boyd: I know. Oh my goodness. So we're planning our thesis show, is like the big hurrah and it's so exciting and I've finally picked a couple of veins that I'm actually focusing in on. And a big one is the involvement of elements of the beach particularly, these big idle beaches, because you have this, like the tide goes out for a kilometer and a half on some beaches and it comes in and it takes so long to walk in and out. It’s this powerful, terrible force, like what a magical thing. 

And then you've got these cliffs and then almost everywhere, I feel it's like a, it's like a full bring of all the elements, right? Like you've got fire because of like the sun and the ground gets hot and there's always these forests, there's this insane, like sea breeze that brings the strangest things and the best things in, and then you have this huge water force. You've got this like old land force.

Like it truly is just these amazing, magical places within this tidalscape. Like I've, it's so … it's okay. Again, it's like that idea of just feeling so small and so big at the same time. Like it happens on so … it happens on such a big scale, but in the grand scheme of things, it's happening on such a small scale, right?

Ah! Take me away. 

ash alberg: I love that so much. I'm like getting just like my body, I can feel my body like processing those things. And I'm just like … ‘cause yeah, it's so funny. Like I have so much respect for water, I think because I grew up with the ocean being such a clear and very like present presence. And it's also been the thing that like, I have a very deep respect for it, which like borders on fear at times, because I know to respect it.

As a small child you're beachcombing and especially beach coming Parrsboro, your … when the tide comes in, it is coming in and it is coming fast. And so you need to be very aware of what, where are the tides right now? So that if you are going to go out on the beach that when to be coming back and that you can get back quickly enough that you're not going to get swept out.

And so yeah, it's a scary thing. It can kill you. And also, it is such a grounding presence in its constant movement. Like the North Atlantic is not a gentle ocean at all.

grace w boyd: No! Oh, by no means. 

ash alberg: Fucking scary. And it's also just like this place that feels so stable in the fact that it is constantly changing its own landscape and constantly moving.

grace w boyd: Yeah. Yeah. Its stability is its instability or vice versa. Yeah. 

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah. There's something, some things about that. I don't know. 

grace w boyd: I know. We're everywhere again. 

ash alberg: Oh god, I love it. What is something that you wish you had been … Now I just got to get myself back, back home to the … what is something that you wish you had been told when you were younger about magic or witchcraft or ritual?

grace w boyd: Oh man, specifically, I think more on the witchy side, spells are real and words are spells. 

ash alberg: [Whispers] Yes! 

grace w boyd: I wish, I definitely wish that somebody would have taken me aside and given me a little bit more time around the power of words. 

Not necessarily that I've thrown … I don't, so I don't cast. I'm not by any person or by any means like a practiced caster in any way, shape or form.

I don't bind, I don't spell, I don't hex. Like I am very, like on the fringes of any of that. Specifically I think I'm definitely more of a, “I'm just going to put my fingers in the dirt and talk to the mushrooms” witch versus like “We're going to make the wind blow today” kind of witch.

ash alberg: A hundred percent. Yeah. 

grace w boyd: I'm sure I probably have and have that somewhere in me.

ash alberg: By accident. Yeah, exactly. I'm pretty sure, especially with your like family lines that a hundred percent you do. [Laugh-snorts.]

grace w boyd: I'm like, yeah, if you look back, it's okay, totally. But I think I speak of it more so in the fact that … I work with kids a lot and you hear a kid … and I've done this to myself and I look back at self, like younger grades, and wished that I had known the power of the words that I was saying about myself.

And I hear kids specifically … I work with youth in sports a lot of the time. And when a kid talks about themselves, perhaps in a negative light, if you say that enough, that becomes reality. That is a spell. That is magic. 

And it doesn't matter if you believe it or you intend it to be. But the more you say a thing, the more that becomes wrapped around you and the more that word, whatever it is, or that saying, becomes real. You have ushered it into existence. 

ash alberg: Yep.

grace w boyd: So I think like looking back at myself, I feel like I could have done a lot of good for myself and a lot less harm to my inner being had I just been told a little bit differently maybe that words are spells and that spells are real. And these things are things that you can do to yourself and to others. 

ash alberg: Oh, that like resonates just so again, my body, I can feel my body processing and it is like the, it's the perfect example of what I was thinking as you were saying those things, because through doing my EMDR therapy, I've just become so aware of how our bones hold so much grief and …

grace w boyd: So much grief. Oh, my gosh. And they remember, they never forget. They are so aware. 

ash alberg: Yes. Yes. And like the … you think that you've processed a thing and all of a sudden it's no, this is sitting in my foot and my foot is holding it. And my foot holds so much grief about this thing. And I am telling myself a different thing and my foot doesn't believe it. 

And it's like the way that our bones hold these old messages that we've either told ourselves or heard told to us so many times it's fucking wild to me, like these messages calcify, and to move them, to release them and move them out of our bodies takes so much extra work when they have compounded for so long with time.

grace w boyd: Oh, and then they fester. Like these things in our soul, if we can't let them go, like they putrefy. Like the good things can stay there too. Like that being said, I've had to do a lot of work and in my existence, I will admit, like I drew like the lucky card when it came to my way of being in the world, but I had, I figured out how to metabolize some of the things a lot quicker. Some of them, not all of them.

ash alberg: Totally. We're all works in progress.

grace w boyd: Shadow Grace has a lot of work to do [Ash cackles, Grace laughs.] When it comes out, it’s whoa! 

ash alberg: I love our shadow versions of ourselves. I do. I do, I … 

[Both talking at the same time.]

Yeah. I'm going to say I love.

grace w boyd: Like when they get to sit together and share a whiskey or a gin, hooo!

ash alberg: A little scary.

grace w boyd: Yeah. Tides turn, fires swirl, like earth shake. Like here we come. Yeah, full force. 

ash alberg: Yes, yeah. I think, yeah, that's the thing, right? It's and it's, I feel like this is a whole other conversation for a different podcast episode, but like the way that we shame shadow parts of ourselves and it's like those shadow parts are there for a reason. Like we need the light and the dark and the shadow parts are there … 

grace w boyd: Oh, yeah. As above, so below, within, without. Like I need her.

ash alberg: Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And that's the thing, right? They are there to protect us. They are, and they become stronger because we're not listening to them. And their job is to warn us and to protect us and to, if we're being violated in some way, to come in and be like, nope, fuck right off.

And it's, I think it's learning how to become more attuned to them and then understanding why are they protecting us in these moments and then helping them to know, okay, I appreciate you. This is not a moment where I need you to step in, or this is a moment I need you to step in and I'm going to get you to step in, in this capacity, so that the rest of me, the light part of me can still be in existence as well. And have this harmony between the two. 

grace w boyd: That's like the maiden, mother, crone, like persona that every person has. And I wish, I feel like my male-bodied individuals also have the same, like pillars of existence. So I don't mean to leave out anybody, but like the maiden, mother, crone … and my friend, Heather, she’s got a saying, she learned it from another friend, but it was like, keep your child like self, like in front of you and greet the world with that.

Like wear your woman and then keep your bitch on your back kind of thing. [Ash cackles.] And if like … my shadow bitch, like she's good. I will carry her up mountains.

ash alberg: I love that. I feel like it's like a similar thing to Brene Brown's phrase of “strong backs, soft fronts and wild hearts,” right? Like it's that same mentality of, keep yourself strong, keep yourself soft and also keep yourself just like ready to embrace the world.

grace w boyd: Yeah. And that wildness. I'm a big like pusher of the wild nature kind of thing. Like when like your twin, like tingling and twitching and if your eyes are darting, like there's a reason for that, like that instinct is there. Do not quiet that instinct. If you need to yell, if you need to growl, if you need to purr, listen to all of those things! Do not silence that. 

ash alberg: I love … 

grace w boyd: Sometimes I growl and I know that I probably shouldn't. [Ash laughs.] Sometimes I [inaudible] and I probably shouldn't. My body … and its, in its moments, its nervous system said snap and growl. I'm going to snap and growl. Yeah.

ash alberg: Hundred percent. And then the purring too, right? Like it's so … I think there was one time, like you and I saw each other and we always embrace each other in these really intense embraces and it’s like … 

[Both talking at the same time.]

grace w boyd: Oh man. Yeah. But the moment we spend any time we snort and we purr first. 

ash alberg: [Laughs] So much! And there was somebody else there and they were like, “What is that sound??” I'm like, oh, it's just me. I'm just purring. It's fine. [Laughs.]

grace w boyd: Purring is okay. Yeah. 

ash alberg: It’s just what we do. [Snorts.]

grace w boyd: Oh man. That's what it needs to be, right? And in our basic existences, I think even as sole cells, not as body cells, but we are wild and we have learned, and I'm like, as far as I was concerned until the age of eight, like seven or eight, I was going to grow up to be a cat. [Ash cackles.] 

Like I kept thinking, that's what I'm going to be. To this day I’m like, it's going to happen for me. I will be like a feral cat.

ash alberg: I, yes. I believe that. [Laughs.]

grace w boyd: Yeah. It's happening. 

ash alberg: [Chuckles.] Fuck. I love that so much. Okay. So what is next for you then, in all the things? 

grace w boyd: All the things. Okay. As far as life existence timeline goes, I'm making a show for myself for my MFA. That is my next big current, but next thing. And I think next, as far as like this being walking into the world, I really just want to have another reset. So part of my ebb and flow of my life has been very much okay, focus on an event, on an activity, on an intention and then take a breath and then come back and/or move on. 

And those breaths have always been so important and I, they've usually taken … I like, again, you've mentioned like I live quite nomadically. Like I'm good at picking up and moving my life to these really strange, weird, comfortable, dangerous places. 

ash alberg: Yes. Which I love that you do that while also being like an actively practicing ceramicist all the time. That's not a convenient thing to be like, I need a new kiln. 

grace w boyd: Yeah. [Laughs.] I just need a kiln, I'll be fine. Don't have a kiln? Okay, I'll make one. [Ash laughs.] Like what a ridiculous thing. 

Yeah. Not a trade that is easy to be nomadic with, I will admit. And I think like in the past that's always looked like road trips or driving off into the sunset in my van, bless her soul.

Faye passed a couple of years ago.

ash alberg: Mhmm. Yeah.

grace w boyd: Those vessels of travel have always been really important. So I imagine myself just picking up after this and going on an adventure. I will admit South America's been whispering back to me. 

ash alberg: I can see that. Yeah.

grace w boyd: Yeah. It's ooo, I kinda like it there. That's nice. China's been calling my name a little bit.

There's some really lovely spots in China where I want to go. I don't know what that's gonna look like for future.

ash alberg: With COVID right now, right? Like it’s … 

grace w boyd: Oh, I know. And then the deepest little piece of my heart, the north, and I feel like that is something that people who have ever been like in, in the Arctic circle know, is you either love it or you hate it. And there's this call, there's this little tickle, inside of you. 

So, and I think to me it's more like a shake sometimes where it's, you will go back to the north. It's a matter of when, but you will. So I, I think maybe the north, but I don't know.

Yeah. But a reset is what's next. Yeah. Yeah. 

ash alberg: I love this.

grace w boyd: And then I really [giggles.] [Ash snorts] … no, go for it! 

ash alberg: That's all I wanted to say. I just love it. [Laughs.]

grace w boyd: [Laughs.] Yeah. I want, after I'm … I have it in my heart that I want to teach.

ash alberg: Yes. 

grace w boyd: Whether that's on a one-on-one capacity or whether that's on a classroom at a college or in an institution, or even in an art center, I want to teach. I want to knowledge share, and that can look like so many things. I had a friend that I greatly respect recently tell me, she's oh, like you've recently bought a little bit of land, like I just imagined you hosting. 

And you could tell that she was trying to search for the next words, host what, host what kind of thing? And she's just, hosting. And I was like, yeah, that makes perfect sense. Whether it's a camping weekend or a residency or a dinner or a class, or just intentional space, like to be the, I think to be the energetic holder for a space, I think is what's on perhaps my bigger vibration scale and plan.

ash alberg: I love that. And I can see it so well because I can just, I can so fully see you hosting everything from like casual groups of people who are like semi-interested in just like learning a new skill to like kids who are just like wild little beings that just need another wild being to show them that it's okay to be wild, to like other like academics who are like really deeply thinking about what is the future and past and present of ceramics. 

And like hosting all of those different sorts of groups on land that you are stewarding with food that you have sourced from yourself and the land, and maybe others on like plates and mugs and bowls that you have made yourself.

I can see all of that happening and it makes so much sense to me. And I can also see you being like, cool, this is going to happen for three weeks of the year. And then I'm going to peace out for the others.

grace w boyd: Then I’m gone.

ash alberg: Like … [Both laugh.]

grace w boyd: Yeah, that sounds a little bit more … [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah. [Laughs.]

grace w boyd: I know. I know. And you mentioned earlier that there's no way that we could ever like date or have any kind of like romantic tie. And I feel like that's the thing is I'd be like, okay, I love you, byyeee!

ash alberg: [Cackles.] Yeah, which I think is, I think like it's such a beautiful part of you. And because I have, just I don't do long distance well. I need physical touch. And so by us not dating, then it's okay, ‘cause when I get physical touch with you, then it's wonderful. And when I don't then I'm not concerned about it ‘cause I know it'll come back. This is the process of being a dear one.

grace w boyd: I'm back. I'm like a wobbly boomerang. Like I take a little while, I meander, but trust me, I'm coming back.

ash alberg: Exactly. Oh my god. That's the perfect fucking analogy for you. But I think whoever does date you just needs to like, know and accept that this is part of being with you is that this is an inherent part of who you are and how you function in the world and how you move about it.

And it is also what makes you just such a beautiful being. And if anybody were to try and squash that and be like, no, I need you to just stay a little bit more like that is to be smushing the essence of you. 

I will a hundred percent fight anybody that tries to do that. [Snorts.] Be like, fuck off, get out of her way.

[Both talking at the same time.]

grace w boyd: Oh my gosh. Yeah. “I don’t think so!!”

Oh my god. I … and like my mom and my dad … so I recently, as we've said earlier in this conversation like I was in Winnipeg visiting my parents and you and my friends and my close friends and bits and pieces and my dogs! 

ash alberg: Yeahh! Merp, merp.

grace w boyd: Ohhh, I miss them so much. 

ash alberg: That's adorable. 

grace w boyd: And I always get asked by people whenever I come home, it's oh, are you going to come back? Are you, how long are you here for, a year? And I'm like four days!

But I do come back and I think that the thing that the people who I've managed to keep around me and that know that, like the basket of loved ones I have woven around myself are all the ones that acknowledge and understand that I have to travel and I have to move.

And my roots are deep and hard but they're that way so that I can pull them up and put them somewhere else. Like it, it has to be, it has to be a balance of give and take and understanding that my love comes at orbit. 

ash alberg: Yes. 

grace w boyd: Yeah. 

ash alberg: I fucking love that so much. And I deeply love … I think also the thing that I appreciate so much about you is that it, because it is just such a core aspect of you and you are so very much aware of it being an aspect of you, then there's not this apologizing that comes as part of it. It's just, this is how I am.

If you're cool with it, then we're great. And I love that because it's, I feel like it's often the apologies that we build in just in case that then end up like causing this like weirder friction rather than just being like, no, this is how I am, and if you're great with that, and if you accept that then wonderful.

And if that doesn't work for you, that's okay too. Like just we navigate accordingly. 

grace w boyd: Precisely. 

ash alberg: There's something really lovely about knowing yourself really well.

grace w boyd: Yeah.

And I've had like a friend's comment recently. She's you're so wild and you're so everywhere, but she's, but I know that's just who, and what you are and you wouldn't be happy otherwise. And she has a friend who we both know was trying to find herself and she's really trying to figure out where she fits in.

She wants this existence, but she wants another existence and they're tearing her apart. And the only thing that I could ever think to say to her is just be sure. 

ash alberg: Yup.

grace w boyd: Like just say yes. And I know that sounds so cheesy and everyone like goes, [mocking voice] “Just say yes to yourself.”

ash alberg: But it's so true.

grace w boyd: But it's so true. It's so true. And I'm not saying that it's an easy thing to learn or an easy thing to do, but to just be okay with being yourself is, okay, that's the biggest spell to cast. That's the biggest like charm, like the biggest magic that I think that a person could ever give to themselves is just being sure. Yeah. 

ash alberg: Fuck. That is a great … that's just a great spot to stop right there ‘cause otherwise we're just going to keep talking for another four hours. 

grace w boyd: I know. I know. Ohhh gosh.

ash alberg: Oh my God. I love that so much. I love you so much. 

grace w boyd: I love you so much. [Ash giggles.]

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] You can find full episode recordings and transcripts at snortandcackle.com. Just click on podcast in the main menu. Follow Snort and Cackle on Instagram @snortandcackle and join our seasonal book club with @SnortandCackleBookClub. Don't forget to subscribe and review the podcast by your favorite podcasting platform.

Editing provided by Noah Gilroy, recording and mixing by Ash Alberg, music by Yesable.