our guest for episode 4 is patty ryan lee! patty is the witch, tarot reader and web developer behind the fiery well, the only tech and business support space just for service based witches. you can find her online at thefierywell.com and getonlinewitch.com and on instagram @thefierywell.

each season we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #snortandcacklebookclub, with a book review by ash and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. this season's #snortandcacklebookclub read is "orishas, goddesses, and voodoo queens" by lilith dorsey.

take the fibre witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz. follow us on instagram @snortandcackle and be sure to subscribe via your favourite podcasting app so you don't miss an episode!

seasons 1-3 of snort & cackle are generously supported by the manitoba arts council.

transcript

snort & cackle - season 2, episode 4 - patty ryan lee

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] Hello, and welcome to the Snort and Cackle podcast. I'm your host, Ash Alberg. I'm a queer fibre witch and hedgewitch. And each week I interview a fellow boss witch to discuss how everyday magic helps them make their life and the wider world, a better place.

Expect serious discussions about intersections of privilege and oppression, big C versus small C capitalism, rituals, sustainability, astrology, ancestral work, and a whole lot of snorts and cackles. Each season, we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #SnortAndCackleBookClub with a book review by me and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. Our book this season is Orishas, Goddesses, and Voodoo Queens by Lilith Dorsey.

Whether you're an aspiring boss witch looking to start your knitwear design business, a plant witch looking to play more with your local naturally dyed color palette or a knit witch wondering just what the hell is a natural yarn and how do you use it in your favorite patterns, we've got the solution for you.

Take the free fiber witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz and find out which self-paced online program will help you take your dreams into reality. Visit ashalberg.com/quiz [upbeat music fades out] and then join fellow fiber witches in the Creative Coven Community at ashalberg.com/creative-coven-community for 24/7 access to Ash’s favorite resources, monthly zoom knit nights, and more. [End of intro.]

I am here with Patty Ryan Lee and Patty is the witch, tarot reader, and web developer behind The Fiery Well, the only tech and business support space just for service-based witches.

Hi Patty!
patty ryan lee: Hellooo.
[Both say “how are you?” at the same time.] [Both giggle.]

ash alberg: Good! How are you?

patty ryan lee: I'm nerv... How did I put it ... I'm nerve-cited. I'm nervous excited. The whole podcasting ... this is only my second podcast I've ever been on and it's been such an honour. So thank you for having me!

ash alberg: Oh, I'm so excited you're here! I would also like to point out, we were chuckling about it right before but your sound audio ... for being this ... is if this is the second podcast that you've recorded but you also have actually the best audio quality out of everybody I’ve been recording, including myself. [Chuckles.]

patty ryan lee: [Laughs.] I’m tech witch, I think is my response to that. Yeah, I take my tech pretty seriously.

ash alberg: And we all appreciate that you do. [Both laugh.]
patty ryan lee: I'm actually in the middle of testing things out for a member

request so this is actually going to be really great.

ash alberg: Cool! Yeah, why don't we get into that? Tell us a bit about you who you are and what you do in the world.

patty ryan lee: I am a witch, tarot reader, and web developer. And my tagline is, I make websites for witches but mostly I help witches that are trying to do their thing and realize ... Can we cuss? I'm assuming we can cuss.

ash alberg: Oh yeah! [Cackles.] You’re like, I know you so I'm assuming that’s okay.

patty ryan lee: It's, it almost just flies out now. Can I just do like witchy shit with a bunch of computers and WordPress and all kinds of things and I help service-based witches – tarot readers, herbalists, astrologers – realize that the website is not going to solve all their problems. It's usually the problem in the way of what they're trying to do and to get the fuck over it and just get to work. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: I love that so much because yeah, like you, you will straight up make the things for people. But you also run The Fiery Well, which is like an

amazing resource for anybody who is not themselves a coder basically. And I think probably even if they were ...

patty ryan lee: Even if ... I have a lot of folks in there that DIY their own website and that's the bulk of who's in there. And I try to get people to focus on why they have a website more than what they're doing with it.

ash alberg: Oof. Yeah. I’m like thinking about all the time that I'm like pfaffing around on my Squarespace which ... and you and I have conversations about this all the time because basically all of your favorite platforms are like the opposite of my favorite.

And it is also because I am not ... like my knowledge of tech is by necessity only. Like I don't enjoy tech, nothing about it is like exciting to me and it's just annoying as fuck. And so I was like whatever will let me like drag and drop shit and will take the least amount of my brain space to figure out to start with, but then I never actually move forward necessarily with upgrading which probably is eventually going to get in my way. But in the meantime ...

patty ryan lee: Your website is usually a step or two behind where you are anyway because your website's going to be, okay, I need to put this thing out there. And then I'm going to take off with the business itself and ignore the website for awhile. Oh shit, now I need to go update the website to match where I'm at in business

ash alberg: Yes! Oh my god, yes. I feel like and ... I feel like it's like part procrastination method but like also just like doing business. I feel like every year or so I just want to change up the theme of my website and like visually make it different but then not fuck around with it too much as far as what it's there to do.

I'm like okay if it's ... if I'm making sales but then part of me is, okay is there a better way that I can organize the shop portion? But I think a lot of the time it's, I'm fucking around with the visuals and a little bit of the functionality when in reality that's ... the navigation is fairly clear. My audience is used to it.

I'm on the internet often enough that I am frequently on websites and know that just because it looks pretty doesn't mean that it is functional. So I feel like mine is at this point kind of a base. It like, it's straddling between pretty and functional but I would like it to be slightly prettier.

patty ryan lee: I ... pretty is as pretty does. Like it ... just because it looks good does not mean it functions. I run across some gorgeous websites and I'm like where the fuck is the navigation menu?

ash alberg: [Cackles.] Yes, oh my god. Also whenever people have like landing pages that are like “take me into the site,” I'm like why didn't you just take me to the site to begin with?? Like ...

patty ryan lee: Linktree! No, I won't get into Linktree but ...

ash alberg: So I'm a Linktree devotee only because I have so much fucking shit that I want to offer all the time. And I'm like okay, here's the thing, click on the button that you want to then take you ... It's like slightly, I feel like it's slightly less chaotic than going to my website.

And I also hate the ones where it's ... and I think it's probably a later thing, where it's “click the photo and it'll take you to that specific thing” and I'm like, no! That's just annoying! And usually isn't actually taking me to where I want.

And then often seems to link to websites where their navigation is shit. So if there's something else that I want to find it's like, you can't go to the main page of the website but I can find their latest blog.

patty ryan lee: It's ... It all comes down to strategy. One person's going to do one thing when they land on a page. What do you want that to be?

ash alberg: Right. [Laughs.] The whole one call to action bit.

patty ryan lee: It's ... I mean you can have a hundred call to action but the likelihood of someone going back through that, it's almost like a sales funnel. If they're going to go back through that, they're not going to, so you want to always be leading them forward.

ash alberg: Okay, you and I need to chat funnels [both laugh] separate from this. Goddamn. I'm going to pay you. We're going to talk funnels because that's where my brain will be going after I deal with finance shit.

patty ryan lee: It's ... but the website itself it, it just needs to do its job. You can do everything on a landing page alone. You can do everything through Linktree.

Like I get mad with Linktree because it's they have your data, they have your analytics, they have everything behind a paywall. You have a website, use a page on that, you're paying for that already.

ash alberg: Oh I didn't even think of that! Oh my god! You could just like legit create like a “here's all my main offers” but it's all on your ... Fuck. [Cackles.] Everybody, what is this, like three minutes into the chat? Like bookmark this part, go and fix your website and then go fix your link on your Instagram and then come back.

patty ryan lee: If you're using Linktree as ... because here's the thing, people overthink what ...

ash alberg: Right.

patty ryan lee: A website is a hub. It's your grand central station. It's one page somewhere on the internet that you tell people you can do this, that, or the other. That's it!

ash alberg: And then they need to decide which train they're taking out of.

patty ryan lee: If you give them a hundred tracks ...

ash alberg: Oh, it's too many.

patty ryan lee: Where are we going? I came in here with one idea, I wanted to go to Chicago but now I'm seeing one to Vegas. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Yes. Shiny object syndrome.

patty ryan lee: Yeah. I'm guilty of it. Like it's just ... and there's a new service popping up every day and I'm trying them all out. So if you go to my stuff like, “what the hell is this?” it's because I'm in the midst of trying things and I forget about it. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: [Laughs.] That also ...

patty ryan lee: Why was this posted twice on Instagram? It’s because I'm trying different schedulers out at the same time and I forgot.

ash alberg: Ahh okay, this makes sense!

So now this the thing that I appreciate about you being a tech witch is also that like you have your preferences, often they are not my preferences, but also you don't just ... you're not just, “Then I'm not going to help you.”

You are such a wealth of knowledge and you actually are like ... I'm often, I don't know what the fuck's going on with my Squarespace and you will find me the link before I can contact customer support.

patty ryan lee: Yeah
ash alberg: And you hate Squarespace! So it's, you still stay on top of all of

these different things even if you think they're a pain in the ass.

patty ryan lee: So it's not ... it, and I want to clarify it's not that I hate Squarespace, because when I first started I hated WordPress. I did everything custom.

ash alberg: Yeah.
patty ryan lee: Like I got out notepad black and white text. I did everything by

hand. I don't miss those days often. [Ash laughs.]

But for me it's less ... because if someone comes to you and says, “This ... it's my way or the highway,” run the opposite direction because they're closed off. This is only thing that works for them. And granted there is something to be said for, “this is the tool I know and can support you best with” and that's, for me that's WordPress.

I've tried Squarespace and it just it doesn't work with my brain.

ash alberg: Right, yeah. That's a really good point, right, like these ... and I think that's why for WordPress for me, the reason it didn't work was because yeah, it doesn't work with my brain. It is much more ... if you, especially if you know how to code but if you even if you don't know how to code, like I'm very visual.

So being able to drag and drop things the way that you can on Squarespace works really well and I will put up with the limitations of not knowing how to like custom code it if it's not doing exactly what I want because that’s a little

easier than, I feel like with WordPress I basically need to go into the same kind of brain mode that I need with tech editing. And there is a very specific chunk of my life where my brain goes into that mode and it is not the baseline.

patty ryan lee: WordPress is headed ... its plan is to surpass Squarespace, Wix, and the whatnot for the drag and drop full-site editing. And I'm very excited. I was against it in the beginning ‘cause it's teaching an old dog new tricks, but I've been doing this since 96.

I'm tired. Stop changing on me. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Yeah, I also feel that hardcore. Like every fucking time, I feel like it's why I'm just like slowly backing myself away from social media. I'm like, stop changing shit. I can't play this game anymore. I don't care. Here's a pretty picture, fuck, that's all I got. Like ...

patty ryan lee: Check your metrics, I bet you doing better now.
ash alberg: Probably, yeah.
patty ryan lee: Because you stopped giving a shit about the fucking algorithm.

ash alberg: This the thing, even if I ... it's so funny because our biz witch team frequently is chatting about like, what's the algorithm doing, what's my performance, as people are like popping in and out with social media.

And I've just like very consistently built bigger and bigger boundaries around the way that I am engaging. But also because I enjoy doing content creation, because for me that is part of my creative process, it's less of a chore for me to be on platforms like Instagram. Maybe like Pinterest. Pinterest is a different kind of pain in the ass.

patty ryan lee: That's a whole other beast.
ash alberg: I'm going to hire somebody to do it for me instead. I just want to

pin the pretty pins, I don't want to make them. It will destroy my joy.

But with Instagram I'm like okay, I don't mind creating the content for it but I do not give a fuck anymore about playing the algorithm game. Because I have also found that regardless of the way that I tweak things and the way that I put new boundaries up or take them down for a little bit to see, has anything changed?

There's not really a drastic change in the way that one post performs compared to another.

And so I'm like okay my mental health is way more important to me than trying to figure out this thing that is consistently changing and is always ultimately designed to keep you on the platform, which means fucking around with you and keeping things inconsistent so that you can't learn to rely on it. And so I'm like fuck it, I'm going to do what I can which is in my case these days pre-scheduling my entire grid.

It's not on my phone, it's on my iPad, so that if I want to I can pop in and stick something in stories. But I'm really not on it and when I do go on it these days I find just my anxiety from watching other people’s shit fall out just heightens my own. I'm like, this is not healthy and it makes me appreciate my friends who are like amazing activists and so invested and involved in community and in their practice and in making their creative work and like being good humans in the world, who do not give a flying fuck about what somebody on Instagram says to them.

patty ryan lee: It's a world of difference. World of difference. Yeah. Yeah.
I took a two month break towards the end of last year which that was ... 2020?

It's 2021? Time has no bearing anymore.

ash alberg: The time is not linear, it never was linear, and the, and COVID has made everybody else aware that it's not linear.

patty ryan lee: It's ... And trying to describe an art piece that I saw was somebody drew a linear timeline and in the middle from March to March there's this big circle [Ash snorts.] So that you start in 2020 or 20 ... I can't remember what years it was before COVID!

ash alberg: I feel like also 2020 is just like, you like dusted off ... It's, so much happened and also it's you like take the whole chunk ... ‘cause you're in the States so like actually with COVID roll or a vaccine roll-out like you guys are starting to open back up. So there is a semi-end to quarantine life and now it's, okay, what does new normal look like?

But there's like a package around the whole chunk of time. And that you can basically just lift that whole thing and stick it on a parallel plane. But like, even

when I think of, oh, these shoes that I bought last year, it's no, these shoes are at least two years old.

patty ryan lee: Yeah.
ash alberg: You spent an entire summer walking the dog in these shoes and that

is why they are dead. [Giggles.] Yeah.

patty ryan lee: What? Like my kid growing up, it's “wait a minute, what?” Like I'm with him all day every day now, especially since everything happened.

He was in a Montessori school, we pulled him out. Like I did two days before the governor closed the doors to everything ‘cause I looked at my partner, I'm like, “Shit's getting real.” [Ash laughs.] And he was like, “It's going to be fine.” I'm like, “Pull them out.”

And the day I'm picking them up the announcement came out. And so he's been home with me, so watching him grow, I don't see it!

ash alberg: Oh, that's fucking weird! And then all of a sudden you like think about it for a second and you're like, oohh!

patty ryan lee: The first week, we planned out quarantines. It took us like six months to realize that we could do that. And I'm like, we planned out quarantines with my mom and he spent the night there, and when I picked him up I'm like, who the hell is this kid?!

ash alberg: [Laughs.] Yes. [Both talking at the same time.]

patty ryan lee: It was mind boggling. And I had this 12-hour separation, I'm like you have grown!

ash alberg: That’s wild.
patty ryan lee: It’s bizarre. It's absolutely bizarre.

ash alberg: I feel like that's almost like an analogy for all relationships in our lives. Like anytime we're starting to get a little complacent in a thing, then you,

you need to take a bit of a break. Whether it's like from your business or like taking a vacation separate from your partner or from your kid or your fur baby.

It's oh, I do love you, you don't just drive me nuts and like looking at whatever it is or whoever it is with almost fresh eyes so that you remind yourself like, oh yeah, like this is a thing that I care about very deeply.

patty ryan lee: Yep
ash alberg: And choose to invest in on an ongoing basis. patty ryan lee: I choose to love you every day.
ash alberg: It is an act of choice!
patty ryan lee: It is!

ash alberg: I feel like it like again, whether it's your business or it's your partner or it's your ... and your kid I feel is one thing where you have slightly less choice. [Both laugh.]

patty ryan lee: Oh no!
ash alberg: You’re like, I could farm you out, it's okay. [Joking.] [Ash

guffaws.]

patty ryan lee: It's ... there's this like, I would put myself in front of a bus for this kid but it's, am I still gonna love you at the end of the day after you tell me you don't like toast and you've had 12 pieces of it? [Makes garbled mom groan.]

ash alberg: Yep. I ... yeah, I cannot imagine the point where I am dealing with tiny spawn because that will be my ongoing existence. Like so much fierce love and also so much anxiety because it's basically like all of your love running around and skinning it's knee outside of your body.

And then also just, who the fuck are you?? Get out of my face. This is why I'm like very much not into homeschooling. And if there's another pandemic by the time I have children, I will have a very large property that I'm like go the fuck away for six hours.

patty ryan lee: Yep. Go outside.
ash alberg: Like, just go away, come back, tell me what you learned and then

we'll go from there, but leave me alone for a bit.

patty ryan lee: Yeah. It's ... they say it takes a village and it's okay but I'm like a village of two right?

ash alberg: Yeah. Yes. How do you do it?

patty ryan lee: And it's like how do I do this? And because there came a point like, okay this is, COVID itself, it's not going away anytime soon. And I predicted five years but we'll see. And I was like okay, so there's a year I'm going to have to homeschool. And I just started a business.

Like really diving deep because I've been off and on self-employed for way too long. And it's, I'm going to have to make a choice here. And I had that conversation with my husband and I said yeah, my choice is no. I am not giving up this business.

ash alberg: Yeah.

patty ryan lee: I'm done giving up shit. We're going to make this happen.

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah. And you need to help me in that.

patty ryan lee: I forgot that part. But yes, I can do it all! [Ash laughs.] Yeah. Yeah.

ash alberg: That is the thing though, right? When your village gets really tiny out of fucking pandemic necessity like, how do you still ... I think that's a thing that is probably honestly just the ongoing journey for humans. And it's funny, I was talking to my tarot cards yesterday about this whole situation. But like how do you, especially when you're like fiercely independent slash control freak and convinced you can do it all ... [laughs.]

patty ryan lee: Yeah

ash alberg: Also like, not always ... And I will just put myself in here, frequently like not trusting yourself to shine fully but also not trusting others to help you in a way where you're not just going to end up having to pick up the

pieces that they dropped in so now it's more work. You know, like how do we get to that point?

How do you like allow yourself to shine fully and then also trust others to show up in the way that they promise they'll show up? And then if they don't show up that it doesn't like completely destroy your faith in humanity. I have yet to figure this shit out. My cards tell me it's going to be a real long time until I get even a glimmer of it. So that's nice. [Snorts.]

patty ryan lee: I’m at the glimmer stage. ash alberg: Oh, that’s good.

patty ryan lee: And it comes down to, you can pick one at a time. And you have to be okay with ...

ash alberg: Letting go the others.

patty ryan lee: Letting go of things.

ash alberg: Letting go is just like something I'm so good at. [Sarcasm.]

patty ryan lee: Here's the thing though, like once you ... you start with little things. Like I gave up laundry.

ash alberg: Oh, yes!

patty ryan lee: ‘cause like my husband had the great fortune to be able to work from home. And we have a basement. And so he just lives down there now and laundry is done there and I'm like, I don't want to bug you while you're working, you do it.

And I don't think he's done laundry intentionally since we've been together. [Ash chuckles and snorts.] Like I'm trying to look back. I don't think he has. And he took over and he's done really well?

He bleached to my blue towels once and we had a little talk but now it's just, oh okay, I don't have to do laundry anymore! And I'm okaAay?

ash alberg: For the most part.

patty ryan lee: For the most part.

It's, I just have to carry the basket up sometimes. It's done, laundry is done, laundry is done. But credit to him he figured it out. He's doing it and he's doing it consistently and it's been a year since I've had to do a load of laundry. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Yeah! Oh man. patty ryan lee: Like holy shit.

ash alberg: Just like the little things but also so much fucking time gets saved by just delegating like small things.

patty ryan lee: Small things. Next was grocery shopping.

ash alberg: Ooh yes, delivery service has just ... I'm like even when I have my car, in the fall, I still don't think I'm going to give up my grocery service ‘cause I'm like, the amount of time that it saves me from having to go out, deal with those people with or without fucking COVID at play, and wait in line at ... every once in a while yeah, maybe I'm going to want to go and pick up my own fruit but like also maybe at that point I would rather go to the farmer's market instead.

But like my basic fucking groceries, I do not need to stand in line at Superstore. I do not need to waste that gas on my own car. Like I will happily wait up until 11:00 PM because I forgot to put my order in until 8 PM. Like ...

patty ryan lee: Yeah, we started ordering groceries and produce was the thing that got in the way. “I don't want somebody picking out my apples.” I'm like, deal with it. And ... [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yep. [Snorts.]

patty ryan lee: Then when he got tired of paying for grocery service I was like okay, fine. My anxiety, like, I was to the point ... I didn't leave my house. And he's, okay, I'll go. So he's also been grocery shopping now for the past year and I'm like yeah, you can keep doing that, that's fine.

ash alberg: Yup. Especially where it's, for something like that where again yeah, produce is the thing that gets in the way and it is consistently the thing

that annoys me the most. But like your partner's going to know at what point you eat the bananas when you pick up the bananas so they will know at what stage they should be purchasing them and how many are needed for the house.

And if one thing isn't going to work then what is the other thing that you're going to want as a replacement? Not just, if the apples are gross this week then please get me pears or just like shit like that.

patty ryan lee: But that's how it started. And now it's, okay, what else can you do? ‘cause I was very much, I did, I ... like it was like I was Samantha Stephens. I did it all without the nose twitch.

And now it's, oh no, okay. This is cool. You can do that, you can do that. And the kid, the kid does their own thing. Used to be at the point where they were making their own breakfast and grabbing snacks. And it's, what do I do with this time? I work but ... [both laugh.]

ash alberg: But it's true! I feel like there is that thing of ... and maybe it's a little ... I was going to say easier. I don't think that's true. Maybe it's a little bit more necessary with kids as they are growing is that you do just have to get to the point of, you are old enough to figure this shit out.

Here, I've given you the guidelines. The snacks have been ... all of the vegetables are cut up and in individual baggies and they are all in the fridge. And if you are hungry go to the fridge and get your own fucking food. Yeah.

And then yeah with partners ... I feel like that's going to be a thing of just like trusting somebody enough. You'd have to be like, I need you to do more than just like, first show up within the relationship, and then we're going to talk about the minutia of being in the house.

Also I will always do laundry because I am the one who does textiles so ...

patty ryan lee: I ... and I thought of you too because it's the ... one of the first times that he did laundry, I had knit a really nice wool hat. [Both make exasperated sounds.] I think you know where I'm headed with this

ash alberg: Oh yeah. [Guffaws.]

patty ryan lee: I have a big head and by the time he was done putting it in the wash machine and dryer, I should have saved it for when we had our kid because it would've fit an infant.

ash alberg: Oh fuck.
patty ryan lee: And I'm like that's getting donated. Somebody will keep their

child's head warm. Don't ever do that again.

ash alberg: Yeah I actually have a separate bin, which is ridiculous because I am the one who does the laundry in my house ‘cause it is just me living in my house. I'm like ... but I literally have a crate at the foot of my bed that all of the knits go into.

And honestly mostly it's my socks because that is what gets washed most, but also end of season. Like everything that is wool goes into that so that I don't accidentally get caught up in a pair of pants that are like wrapped around it or something.

patty ryan lee: Yep. [Sighs.]
ash alberg: Also so that it takes up slightly less space.

I've actually ... so we semi-frequently in the group talk about like weird little life hacks to make ourselves like level up as humans and therefore business owners. And my latest life hack is, I bought a new laundry hamper and it should arrive this weekend because my old one ... I had this old wicker basket. And I do 90 liter size ones.

Like they need to be big because I don't want to do laundry that frequently and my bedroom is on the second floor of my house and my laundry is in my basement so like we're doing multiple steps upstairs.

patty ryan lee: Oh yeah.
ash alberg: All that. And my old basket eventually ... it was wicker. It got tired

of being dragged up and down stairs. So then it basically died.

And I had another one that is like heavier rattan whatever, approximately the same size. And it's fine for holding the laundry but dragging my laundry up and down the stairs in this thing that is significantly heavier and more awkward to

carry than the other one ... And then also the fact that I air dry basically all of my laundry.

So the hamper stays in the basement for a couple of days while things are drying which means that there is a slowly increasing pile of dirty laundry just sitting on my floor upstairs. And so it just got to the point especially where the idea of dragging the hamper up and down the stairs was so annoying that I literally was basically like, by the time I brought it back upstairs I needed to do a full load of laundry again. [Patty groans.]

And I was like okay, this is making me feel like a shitty adult and like an incapable human being so I bought a new laundry hamper that has the fabric inserts. And there's two of them so that I can just take the load down in its bag hamper and put a fresh bag in and I'm not carrying this big fucking wicker-y thing down and up stairs.

patty ryan lee: How ... Wait, so you had the wicker ... ? ‘cause when you say wicker basket I'm thinking pure snag. You have to have a liner.

ash alberg: Oh a hundred percent! Which also, we know what I wear! Like ... the lace? The organza? The tights? Like this was also part of why I was like, I made the wicker basket last long enough.

And then it got to the point where I was like, the fact that I haven't snagged more of my $20 tights on this is impressive. And I should just get ... I should stop using it. So I've stopped using it but ... [sighs.]

patty ryan lee: That just amazes me how long we will live with something.

ash alberg: Oh a hundred percent. Also to be completely honest it is still sitting in my front hallway because I don't ... I'm really bad at throwing things out because environmental part of me is, I can save it or I can reuse it somehow!

So I have a half broken basket sitting in my front hallway. Which like theoretically I could maybe use it for like storing blankets downstairs. Like it has other uses and so I don't necessarily want to get rid of it but also I have at the moment, I have a half broken basket sitting in my front hallway just like hanging out. And I should probably find a new more useful home. [Chuckles.]

patty ryan lee: Cut that sucker in half, line it, and store nice stuff in it.

ash alberg: Yeah. All right, I like this idea.

patty ryan lee: People do that with their tech all the time. Like it's not just laundry baskets, it's not just the dishes that you hate that are broken down. Just get rid of the dish, get a new one.

Technology! Are you trying to just force everything ... I'm like shaking. Force everything into this system that worked five years ago?

ash alberg: Oohh yeah but your business is now very different and different level. I actually, like earlier this week with thinking about you because I am ... so I'm like in the process of trying to figure out, what are my systems of operation so that I can hire somebody. And like production assistant is one thing.

And I actually called the city today and found out that I will need to apply for an extended business permit to hire somebody in my home anyway, and I need to prep for that like three months before I hire. So that's the one thing.

But a virtual assistant is almost to me trickier than hiring a production assistant because the production assistant ... it's very easy for me to look and be like, are you dyeing wool properly? Are you packing orders properly? It's very clear how to evaluate that kind of work.

The virtual assistant work is a little bit foggier for me at this point, and so trying to figure out, what are the systems and what are the different tasks that would ultimately be really nice for me to just pass over which includes the growing Creative Coven Community, making sure ... because at this point with Squarespace, which is where the member space is currently and I'm hoping that they change it, but currently you can't do subscription payments with anything other than Stripe which does not exist outside of the States.

And I can't just set up my PayPal, which is what I take payments through on the website, to monthly charge people. So literally what happens is that they get ... they purchase their first month of the community on Squarespace and then I have to manually make them a recurring PayPal series, which then is like extra annoying also like on the customer end because if they want to cancel they need to contact me to cancel instead of just being able to click a button on Squarespace.

I really hope at some point that they make this better. But at this point somebody needs to then either make sure that they've paid their things or I like, I at least have auto reminders set up for the payments but I have to keep track of, is somebody late on their payment? And if they are too late then their access gets removed, which at this point I manually have to do.

If they want to cancel they need to contact me so that again I can manually cancel it. And then once a month I send them, just an update of “Hey, don't forget we've got our Zoom knit night.” And so initially I was going to ... with keeping in mind that I'm needing to just like constantly be manually basically keeping track of who the fuck the members are and who has access and who doesn't.

I was going to somehow also maintain a separate MailChimp list and just be constantly archiving that and then I was like, oh wait, Squarespace has campaigns. The price of them is not that ridiculous. And it will just let me click the button of the community members who are active, so we're just going to keep it there. [Laughs.]

And it was like ... but it took me like over okay week of thinking about sending the fucking email before finally I went to go build it and was like, there is a much easier way for me to do this. And I will ... I've got my like three free campaigns And after that I will pay them the low chunk of money to make my life that much easier.

It's like the grocery delivery where it's, I will pay you your delivery fee in order for me to not have to go out and do this shit.

patty ryan lee: What's your time worth, is what it comes down to. And if you use the simplest function available for the least price needed, whatever fits your budget, but so these are conversations that I have inside The Fiery Well every week.

“Okay, I need to be doing this and this.” And I'm like, okay first, why are you doing that? That’s the first question: what is the purpose here? Okay, let's talk about these solutions because you talk about doing things manually and I go, no, that's a spreadsheet that can be updated automatically between Squarespace and Google Sheets and PayPal and done ...

ash alberg: IT CAN?!

patty ryan lee: We can talk. [Both laugh.] Like because I am also certain in search of a VA and I was making myself ... I was making more work for myself to try and justify, as we try to do.

ash alberg: Oh yeah.
patty ryan lee: Hiring a VA ‘cause it's ... I'm so overwhelmed with ... it's like

you're creating the shit.
ash alberg: Yes!
patty ryan lee: You don't need to be doing any of it. ash alberg: It could all be automated actually.

patty ryan lee: Yeah. And in ... I don't know when this episode is airing but in July we're walking through a five day audit. I teach you how to go through all your shit and go, can these talk to each other so that I don't have to? [Laughs.]

Because it's ... it there are so many different things available. There's Zapier, there's Integromat, there's Automate. There's all kinds of shit out there with APIs that will let pieces of software talk to each other. And you don't need ... not that I'm trying to keep people out of work. It's ... I would rather see a VA be used like answering emails.

What is the human element that you need someone for? If we can have two services talk to each other let a bot do it.

[Quiet pause.]

ash alberg: [Ash snorts.] Sorry, the garbage people are right behind me. [Laughs.] So I like tried to mute myself for as long as possible but they're also just taking a really long time. [Snort-laughs.]

patty ryan lee: [Chuckles.] I'll have a drink of water then. Hooo!
ash alberg: Okay. They're gone. The one little edit I’ll do in the middle.

[Snorts.]
patty ryan lee: And clap.

ash alberg: But that makes so much sense. If you're going to hire a VA, like figure out what you can automate and if you don't know, pay someone.

patty ryan lee: Come on in!
ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. Join the Fiery Well so you can ask these questions,

and then that way you're automating what you can automate.

And that way then when you are hiring somebody you're also not making their job just busy time. You're making it be really efficient and effective so that also like maybe, yeah, you don't need to hire your VA for as many hours a week but you can also pay them a higher wage because you're hiring them for really specific skilled work.

And then also you've got a little bit more space, where as the business expands, then you can be expanding on their workload because they're not already at full capacity doing random little bits of shit that could actually probably ...

patty ryan lee: Like if your Coven gets to a thousand members ... ash alberg: Yes!
patty ryan lee: You’re gonna need three VAs.

ash alberg: Yes, I like ... literally that is the bit that I'm like ... and that is the goal with the Coven or with the Community, is to have it within five years of 10,000 members.

patty ryan lee: There you go.

ash alberg: Even just right now, honestly, because I don't have QuickBooks set up ... and I will I promise, but right now I manually oversee all of my income on an Excel spreadsheet.

patty ryan lee: Hi. So do I.
ash alberg: Okay great. But it's ...
patty ryan lee: But I have everything put in automagically!

ash alberg: Yes. Okay. Because yeah, it's ‘cause ... yeah. It's pulling from all of these different spaces depending on, where is the money coming from and going to and QuickBooks will just automatically pull all that shit for me. But right now, even just the increase of community members - and the community membership is still quite small, especially in internet terms - and I'm like, the amount of extra time that I am spending like doing data entry is ridiculous and also important.

So I can't not do it. Like it's ... that's literally part of my business. But it is shit that is not my zone of genius. Honestly if it's somebody's zone of genius I ... they've probably got a much broader zone of genius that I would rather pay them for. And it's just like minor shit that would be a lot easier to just automate and not ... so that then if you're dealing with people, then your VA is dealing with somebody who's cranky about something rather than somebody who just like needs to update their payment information.

patty ryan lee: And you can invent that person now. [Chuckles.] ash alberg: Magic. [Both chuckle.]
[Both talk at the same time.]
Go ahead.

patty ryan lee: Yeah. Sign your emails somebody else's name. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Oh my god. Yes. I love that. I didn't ... a friend of mine several years ago was like, we were talking about having just like customers who ... especially when you run a micro-business, like people build really sometimes interesting intimate relationships with you that you are unaware of.

And I a hundred percent also do this with other small businesses. Like I am also one of these people who will be like, “my friend ...” and it's, mahhh, I don't know if they're your friend but okay. And that can be either good or bad. And if it's bad then you can end up in some really awkward situations since ... she was like, “I don't worry about that ever because I just sign all of my emails with a different name and they are my imaginary assistant.”

But because it's now this imaginary assistant, it immediately removes ... and also this person has a very femme name. The assistant has a neutral name and so they also deal with like ... immediately like the aggression level goes away and

it's ... and the answer can be super business-like and it doesn't automatically get them labeled as, “oh, you're a bitch.”

It's just all of this shit which unfortunately is part of running a business is navigating all of these random bits and bobs.

patty ryan lee: There's a far cry between the replies I used to get when I would sign something Patricia.

ash alberg: Ooh yeah.
patty ryan lee: Versus Patty
ash alberg: Yes.
patty ryan lee: Versus Pat.
ash alberg: Oh my god! Oh, I can just imagine. patty ryan lee: Yeah.

ash alberg: It's fascinating. ‘Cause also like talking with other business owners who like in some cases run much larger businesses like money-wise than I do, and also scope-wise, like they're dealing with like big corporate clients or big government clients. And I'm like yeah I have a, I have a decent sized business, a hundred percent.

It’s not as big as I want it to be, someday it will be bigger. However, I also have I think a little bit more control in some ways in terms of like I really ... if you're a pain in my ass, I will happily kick you out the door because the emotional labor of dealing with you is not worth my time. However, if you've got a government contract that like owes you 100K and you’re uncomfortable following up a late payment, I'm like no! Like this is ... how are they late?

They have the fucking money. They've promised it and in reality if we were dealing with corporations, then there would be a late fee attached to this. And A. you should be creating late fee so that then it doesn't matter, they're not going to be late on your payment because now there's a consequence and so they will hurry it along. But also if they're late you absolutely have a right to be a nagging pain in their ass because you need that money to function!

Like you should not and this is where I also love the automatic reminders that Square and also PayPal does ‘cause I'm like reading all of these business examples and they're like yeah, net 60. I'm like fuck that shit, it's due on receipt. And if you do not send it to me tomorrow you're getting a reminder that it's overdue and three days after it's due you'll also get another reminder.

And I like I think, when I think of all of the businesses that I'm working with and I am overwhelmingly working with other small micro-businesses who have a bajillion things to do right? Like they do not have a dedicated finance department the way that these fucking corporations do. And yet the constant reminder is enough for them to be like oh shit, I need to make that payment.

So it is extremely rare that I have to follow things up. It also, because it's automated, if anybody does give me snark - which happens again extremely rarely because I'm just not going to deal with that kind of shit - if on the rare occasion that somebody gives me snark about, “Oh, why am I getting all of these reminders?” Because it's due on receipt and so you need to pay it like ... and it is an automatic reminder that everybody receives.

It is scheduled like that for every single invoice, you are not special So if it feels harassing go and put the fucking payment through and it'll stop harassing you because magically once it's marked as paid you won't get the reminders again.

patty ryan lee: If only that existed in 1999. [Laugh-snorts.]

ash alberg: Oh my god.

patty ryan lee: Because my parents started dot com in ‘95, ’96. And it was in the industrial weighing industry, which everybody was on supplier financing - what we called it - terms were 15 days. You got paid in 60, 90. It didn’t matter because everybody was broke waiting on everybody else to pay their bills.

ash alberg: Oh my gaawwdd.
patty ryan lee: And it just ... talk about trickle-down economics, that debt just

trickled down.
ash alberg: A hundred percent.

patty ryan lee: And there was no automation in place for that. And we were a dot com. It's, pay your bill!

ash alberg: Yeah.
patty ryan lee: Or you're not going to get the leads that can help you pay your

bills. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yes. Yes, that's part of it, is like understanding that. And I think this is also where again like having boundaries is really important, of “pay up and we'll deliver.” And if it doesn't deliver you can get a refund. There are lots of ways for you to then navigate getting a refund if you feel you’re not ...

patty ryan lee: Oh yeah.
ash alberg: ... getting your money's worth a hundred percent. Also refund

policies are important for that.
patty ryan lee: Love refund policies, yes.

ash alberg: Same. And ... but it's also, pay up front or put that deposit down at least. And I was actually thinking about this recently, like I'm going to be adjusting my policies a little bit because I currently, for wholesale orders, have not a ... it's not like a necessarily a low minimum for deposits but I do have like a threshold at which point I will do the 50% deposit. And these days I'm like no, you can just pay the 50% deposit.

And it just makes my life easier because that way if I'm having to put any money out then ... which honestly, frequently it's actually the same smaller orders that I am putting money out because it's often for like herbal things where I don't have maybe enough stock on hand to fill their size order. I have enough stock for my shop. And so I, there's ... there seems to be more money that I need to put out on the small things than on my yarn orders. Which like, I have big orders coming in all the time regardless.

patty ryan lee: Well cash ... everything I do is digital. I got nothing in stock. There's still deposits because I want your ... I want your financial commitment to this project.

ash alberg: This makes ... okay. So then why don't ... we've not addressed any of the fucking questions but that's fine. We'll get into it. We'll get into the magic

part of it We've been sort of talking about it, but what do you do slash can people ... like if you were to be like, “the Fiery Well in five words is this” or like “my offers in six words are this,” what are those things? What can people hire you for?

patty ryan lee: I make websites for witches. Let's see. That's option A. Option B, five words or less.

You don't need a website. [Ash giggles.] So come to the Fiery Well if you're in the first five years of your business. You're service-based and you're realizing you got too much on your fucking plate and you need to streamline and focus.

ash alberg: Yyess.
patty ryan lee: And you need systems. You need to realize that the website is

not going to solve your problems.

ash alberg: Right.

patty ryan lee: It's going to exemplify them.

Because if you're making your decisions, which most of the people in my experience have, they make their decisions at the website.

ash alberg: Yes Yeah

patty ryan lee: And it's okay, I need to raise my prices. Okay, I'm going to put the price on the website. That's a scary price, I need to make it look better. I need to change the font size. Oh, if I change the font size I need to change the actual font face itself.

Okay now I've gone from a San Serif to a Serif. I need to change my colors. And I've changed my colors, now I need better pictures. And it's this spiral, and your intent was simply to change the price of your service.

ash alberg: Oh my god, it’s so true.

patty ryan lee: And I'm the one saying, change the fucking price of your service and go sell it. Don't update your website.

ash alberg: ‘Cause it's also a procrastination technique. Like we can get really good at just like spending all the time fucking around on the website trying to change a couple of things to make it look a little prettier.

patty ryan lee: All you're doing is putting your anxiety into something pretty and not doing the work to show, “I can do this and I can claim this price. My website doesn't fucking matter.” Do it in a Google Doc. I don't care.

ash alberg: Yep. That’s so true.

patty ryan lee: Because if what you're doing is solving a problem, providing a change, or that fucking ... I hate transformative marketing. If you're providing a transformation quote unquote, that's what matters.

If you look back on the websites I designed back in the day, they were ugly as sin. [Ash snorts.] Don’t go looking at my portfolio. Horrible. Oh my god, I would complain to my parents, “This thing's ugly!” It's bringing in five figures, I don't care what it looks like. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess that's part of it too, right? If it's like the vanity metrics on social media like having a large following or having a bunch of people like a post does not mean that actually generated income for at all.

patty ryan lee: I made my first meme and in my little world it went viral. It got shared more than any other post I've ever made. It got me no customer.

ash alberg: Yep.

patty ryan lee: What do I care?

ash alberg: A hundred percent.

patty ryan lee: It was highly relatable, highly shareable. Great! It did not get me any income.

ash alberg: Yeah.

patty ryan lee: It did not get anybody on my mailing list. Like I ... there was no currency exchange.

ash alberg: Yeah.
patty ryan lee: Of any kind.

ash alberg: Yeah, cute little clickbait thing that doesn't actually drive your business forward in any sort of a way.

patty ryan lee: Seriously. It just ... I don't ... like it used to really bother me like oh, I need ... I don't have enough followers. Mostly ‘cause like, I want a hundred followers so I can have my metrics.

ash alberg: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
patty ryan lee: That's what I want. And now I'm at like 500 and it's okay, that's

great. I want the swipe up feature next, but that's really all I want.

ash alberg: Yes and it's funny ‘cause like I have been hovering below 10K for I want to say the last two years And like when I look at ... and like recently ... and also recently I've started doing a little bit more. I changed my marketing strategy, which instead of me trying to just slowly grow my audience I'm like, oh wait I should probably get in front of existing audiences.

But like other than Snort and Cackle honestly, I'm not even doing that intentionally. It's just that because of the pandemic, I am being afforded the opportunity - because I know my shit and I am a good teacher - but I am able to teach for a lot more organizations right now. Also it's Pride month right now, that we are recording this, and so I am like have consistently been very openly ... and I've been in business long enough that people are like, oh yeah, Ash! Which is nice.

And so I'm getting ... my stuff is getting shared around other audiences that are, there's overlaps And so I'm seeing more people in the last couple of months than I've seen for a long period of time but it is still ... it's not like I'm getting like a hundred new followers a day. I'm like cool, this is nice, I got like an extra 10 this week.

And then on my newsletter I added the quiz in, and the quiz is definitely driving up new people. But again it's, oh, I have an extra 150 people on here since, I don't know, February? I'm making up some of these numbers but it's less about what are the numbers and more about how invested are they?

I think the more useful information for me was looking and seeing ... I like found some old Instagram planning sheets and I was like track your numbers. And so my numbers at that point were slightly less ... slightly more sorry than half of what I have now. And the income that I was making at that time was about somewhere between 20 and 25% of what I’m making now.

So it's, it is less about the actual numbers and more about, are those numbers actually people who are investing in you and are wanting to support you? And if you don't run a business then I don't know why you're listening to this podcast. [Patty laughs] But also ...

patty ryan lee: You're just cool and witchy and into all this shit.

ash alberg: Exactly. But also if you don't run a business or you're not an influencer and like actually an influencer, where that is how you make your income, then it's a very different way and reason that you are engaging on social media. To be totally honest I don't know that I would bother really engaging on social media other than maybe like in puppy photos if I did not run my business.

Like I really would personally would not give a shit. I do think that a large part of that is because having to be on social media for my business has created a different set of boundaries that I would not have considered had I not needed to. But yeah, it's ... if you're not on social media for business then I feel like it should matter even less who your number of followers are ‘cause at that point it should just be like the people that you care about in your life who like see a post.

patty ryan lee: It's ... yeah. I have six different Instagram accounts. ash alberg: Yeah.

patty ryan lee: ‘Cause it's like various levels of prioritization over here. Like my kid has their own Instagram account, which I don't update anymore, ‘cause it's ... he can't tell me yes or no this.

ash alberg: Yyeahh.

patty ryan lee: Nope. And the people that quote unquote family that was looking, I'm like you don't need to know. So like, you want to see my kid, call me.

ash alberg: Yes.

patty ryan lee: So yeah. It's ... I call boundaries a spell. [Ash makes an “mmm” sound.] And just in social ... ‘cause I left for two months. I'm like ... ‘cause I'm like, how do I put up ... How do we put up with all these fucking changes? How do we put up with such predatory companies behind them?

ash alberg: Ugh. Yes.
patty ryan lee: It's ... you can't escape. It's like as much as I want to escape

Amazon, it's okay, don't watch Netflix ‘cause they’re using AWS. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Why don't I know these things?? Like what the fuck. But this is also the thing right, like we just ... the ... and also the hypocrisy that can come into play when people are like, “You should boycott this one thing” and it's okay, maybe because that one thing is problematic, however the corporation who owns that one thing and all of the rights to it ... you have a subscription too from this and this service.

So like maybe like before you go shitting on other people about their involvement with that one thing then also look at your own shit.

patty ryan lee: Yup. Oh yeah. That two-month break was a period of me looking at my own shit. It's ‘cause it was ... oh we have ... because I get up on social media and it's, “Oh, you have to do this! And you have to ...” and I would take that personally, like I have to do that.

Not at this collective like, “we” need to be addressing this. No, Patty, you [claps] need [claps] to [claps] dismantle everything on your own. And it's ... I talked to my therapist and she's like, “No, dear.” [Ash laughs.]

ash alberg: Thank goodness for therapists.

patty ryan lee: Oh my god. I guess. Everybody needs a therapist. And that's one of the things that I donate to monthly. It's like, therapy for everyone please. And make sure your therapist goes to therapy. It’s one of my first questions: how do you take care of your mental health dealing with all of this?

ash alberg: Yeah.

patty ryan lee: Yeah. But it's definitely holding up a mirror and going okay, you're boycotting Amazon. Great. You can financially afford to do that and you don't have to rely on Amazon for anything.

You're still participating in Amazon because it's one of the largest CDNs - content delivery networks - in the world.

ash alberg: Yes.
patty ryan lee: Everybody uses it. Kajabi uses it, Kartra uses it, Netflix uses it.

Everybody. If you're getting a PDF off of the internet ...

ash alberg: I've noticed that recently ‘cause I'll see the little URL as it's like changing through and it'll be like clearly AMZ and something blah blah blah blah blah. And I'm like, I just came ... I clicked through somebody’s newsletter via ConvertKit and now the freebie is being delivered via Amazon. And it's ookay.

patty ryan lee: You can't escape it. And then it's, okay, so I'm not participating. I had this ... they call it a “come to Jesus moment.” Not in my house but okay. It ... okay, I'm boycotting Amazon. I'm not participating in the affiliate network. And I do a lot of affiliate marketing, but who am I saying and what am I saying to the people that that’s their only choice?

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah. Sorry I just threw my hands up and my like cord of my headphones went flying. [Patty laughs.] But it's true though! This is ultimately what it keeps coming back to, if you're choosing to boycott something it's because you have a level of privilege that is allowing you ... and that does not necessarily mean that you have all of the ... frequently it does not mean that you have all of the ... we pick and choose what is appropriate for us and what is acceptable for each of us and everybody's going to have different opinions about that and different values attached to that.

But the ... to just automatically say, if you can't, if you don't boycott this thing then that automatically makes you a bad person, it's ... that is the most fucking reductionist shit that I recall believing when I was 18-years-old and then magic, I grew up and learned that the world was more nuanced than that. And that it is more fucking complicated than that and ...

patty ryan lee: There’s shades of gray?? What?!

ash alberg: Shocker! [Patty laughs.] I'm always like, whenever I'm teaching natural dyeing I'm like, “So everything is on a spectrum, including the gender binary, and natural dye is between stain and dye.” [Laughs.]

patty ryan lee: And that's not a linear spectrum in color! ash alberg: No!
patty ryan lee: It's a fucking wheel!

ash alberg: Yes. Fuck yes. Then it's fugitive and like, which side are we falling on the fugitive but ... and then there's like outside of the whole thing. But yeah, we're constantly dealing with nuance.

And I think this is also where social media fucks us over, where the limits of things and the click baity algorithm shit really is not interested in the nuance either.

patty ryan lee: No.

ash alberg: It does not behoove it to share the nuance. And so we ended up in either echo chambers and/or these extremely ... one extreme or the other, black and white, there is no gray. Like it's so fucking unhealthy.

patty ryan lee: Yeah.
ash alberg: And is not ... it's not teaching us critical thinking. It's not teaching

us how to have productive conversations with one another. patty ryan lee: Nooo. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: I'm very much of the opinion that if you're Nazi I will just punch you in the face but there are ...

patty ryan lee: Yeah. Yeah.

ash alberg: Like there ... there are some people where it's actually okay if they get hurt as far as I'm concerned. However, there's a very broad spectrum between one and the other. And I feel like most of the time most people are capable of some kindness.

Maybe not always but like just assuming that like everybody who falls under this category - again, with the exception of Nazis - is a terrible human being and don't even bother trying to talk to them. That's not actually helpful in any sort of way because also it stops people from wanting to be open and wanting to ask questions.

And I get it right? Like I understand, when I'm in the queer community and there are trans folk who are like, “I'm so fucking tired of being misgendered and I'm sick of the microaggressions and if one more person asks me I'm going to blow up,” and they do. And so I do get that and also I'm like, you know what, it doesn't help it because the people who are asking questions are actually the ones that we want to have those conversations with so that they can learn and start the unlearning process.

The unlearning process is so fucking complicated also, to be completely honest, most of the time the people who have that conversation with me of “I'm so fucking sick of people misgendering me” are also the people who turn around to the femmes in the space and say “she” automatically. I'm like oh [claps] okay [claps] we have some hypocrisy [claps] at play.

patty ryan lee: We all have layers of shit to undo and unlearn and discover who we actually are. And good lord, why can't we realize that when we're kids? Because the adults around us are fucked up. But ... [laughs.]

ash alberg: Yes! But it's also it's also this thing of ... the other thing that social media really fucks over is this idea of how much time it takes to actually unlearn something right? Like it's ... when somebody fucks up we automatically accept an apology, and also because we know that most of the time if somebody like truly fucks up, that apology is not going to be sincere because they have not actually had time to start the unlearning process.

So if they do apologize right away then we're like, “We don't believe you!” but if they don't apologize right away and by that like within minutes of the first person being like “You're an asshole!” then we also shit on them because we're like, “You're not responding in the way that I personally want you to respond.”

And there's gotta be something fucking in between here and there because I think of myself when I was like 17 and 18 and I'm like man, 18-year-old Ash was an asshole!

patty ryan lee: Oh my word.

ash alberg: I was ... I said horrific things without realizing it. I have like very clear memories - and I say this as a member of the trans community because I'm non-binary, and half of my dearest ones, more than half of my dearest ones are within the non-cis side of shit - and I clearly remember at the age of 18 going to university. It was the first time that I was like in a queer community in any sort of real way. And I did not have the vocabulary at that time and I a hundred percent remember at least two or three separate occasions where I said things that absolutely were transphobic because I didn't understand the nuance of the language at that point to understand why what I was saying was so horrific.

And I'm like man, if I did that nowadays on social media ... if social media existed in the way that it does now back at that time, I would not have been given the opportunity to learn. And that's not fucking helpful because now what I see is these people who, they say something because it is not part of their day-to-day experience. They have not been exposed to it yet. They get their first exposure to a thing or a group or whatever and they say the wrong thing ... which also I would like to point out is super fucking like classist and academic-isist ... Is that a word? I'm pretending that's a word ...

patty ryan lee: Today

ash alberg: Yeah. Of expecting people to use a very specific kind of language and verbiage. And there is very much privilege in having that. Usually honestly existing up here in academia and like very specific places, and anybody who uses other language ... it's also very much a generational thing. With each generation the language changes quite drastically, so we end up with like intergenerational fights over shit that should not be fights. And like within the communities.

And it's just, none of it is helpful and we are not giving one another the grace to believe and space to see if, hey, can you do a little better? Because it's like when you go to therapy. You like, you don't go to one session and suddenly you're fixed.

patty ryan lee: God, I wish! [Chuckles.] ash alberg: Like it's an ongoing process.

patty ryan lee: Yeah!
ash alberg: That would be so nice!

patty ryan lee: It’s been three years? Four years? [Ash laughs.] Yeah. Yeah. Wait, I'm not done yet?! “No, dear.”

ash alberg: I have to keep on learning the shit?! Goddamn. What do you mean there’s more?

patty ryan lee: And re-learning, ‘cause it'll come back?

ash alberg: Yes! And that's the thing too right, of like the old trigger comes back and then it's, you thought you dealt with it and you didn't. And everything falls under the same spectrum of, we're having to constantly learn.

And on the one side when we're like in our best selves then there is an acknowledgement of, “we're always learning and you should always be learning throughout your entire life” and then on the other side, on the shittier part of ourselves, we're like, “if you're not completely highly evolved in using the exact perfect language at every single possible moment then you're a terrible human being.” And if you can't do that just shut your mouth to begin with.

And I think this is ultimately where I see a lot of the problem, is that people are too scared to fuck up and so they don't even try. And it's just ... and we just end up in the same fucking like quicksand bullshit.

patty ryan lee: Oh yeah. That was me several years ago, ‘cause it's, if I'm going to say the right ... ‘cause I have perfectionism issues anyway. And ‘cause I was raised, straight A student, you get things, you do it right bah dah dah dah. And language changes so much.

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah.
patty ryan lee: I can't keep up! ash alberg: I know! I know.

patty ryan lee: And like there ... And my husband's on TikTok just to be prepared for when our kid's a teenager.

ash alberg: And even then like TikTok is really not the spot he should be on, there's three other platforms I think now that ...

patty ryan lee: Oh yeah but he's just trying to keep up because it's constantly, what are they going to be ... what is the language going to be?

ash alberg: Yes! I've, I honestly have given up and I try to remind myself that like it's okay that I don't know all the things because I remember, again as a member of the queer community who has degrees in queer theory, I remember walking into a classroom with a bunch of queer teenagers because I was going to teach a workshop. And we went around and introduced ourselves and the kids were saying what their identities were and they were using words that I was like, I have no fucking clue what that means.

And it's because I don't live on fucking ... I don't even know if Tumblr still exists. Tumblr was the space for all the queers back in the day. But wherever the fuck the kids are talking now.

patty ryan lee: It is now owned by Automatic. [Chuckles.]
ash alberg: I'm just, I'm semi-impressed that Tumblr hasn't actually just gone

down the wormhole of the internet garbage system.

But yeah, I was just like I ... like I'm part of this community and I literally do not know what these kids are saying right now and that's okay. That's, especially with identity politics, like queer theory is such a funny one, and same with like crip theory and race theory, like all of the extensions of the different kinds of identity politics theories. They're ongoing conversations.

And I think where we can get stuck is that when you attach theory to it or anything that is like semi along those lines, then there is an idea that it is set in stone and that's so not true. Like they are constantly evolving and actually evolving extremely quickly and different pockets of it are going to evolve at different waves, and depending on what language was the base of it or what country you're dealing with the language is different.

Like the LGBTQ acronym alphabet soup literally is different depending on what ... like here in Canada, right now and probably in six months it'll be different, but right now we start with 2S because that's two-spirit. That's not the baseline

in the States, I don't even think it usually makes it in the States. In the UK it's BAME or it was the last time I checked. Who the fuck knows what it is now.

Like it's ... and these are English speaking primarily that we're talking about, then you add on other languages other regions of the world. All of it. Like it just ... and not one of them is more or less, they are just all different versions of ultimately the same thing.

patty ryan lee: See and that makes me so happy because it's this expansion and I'd love to see that ... like I keep bringing my kid back in but it's, he keeps understanding things and he understands one concept, one word. I have to give him more words to use to get more detailed and down to the detail of what he's feeling or what he's thinking or doing. Oh shit!

ash alberg: Oh my god, yes.

patty ryan lee: I need another word, I need another! And to have that room, just the idea that one ... it can be culturally different no matter where you go but the idea is we're making room.

ash alberg: Yes, and that there is space to make more room. patty ryan lee: There’s space!

ash alberg: There's not this finite amount. We're not just like in one building that only has six different rooms. Like it's the universe that I ... I don't want to go too far into like quantum whatever the fuck but like the universe is ever expanding. The universe is everything and it expands.

I don't get it. I don't want to think about it too much ‘cause it makes my brain hurt. But like scarcity doesn't help anything and it doesn't help any of us.

patty ryan lee: It ... it's ... scarcity is the lizard brain. Like, resources. I need dah dah dah. It's human, it's innate.

ash alberg: Yes.

patty ryan lee: But we don't need ... Again a voice of privilege, you don't need scarcity.

ash alberg: Yeah.
patty ryan lee: Again nuance in language depending on so many fucking

things.
ash alberg: Yes. Yeah. A hundred percent. Huh. Um, okay. Let's ... now that we're like more than an hour in ...
patty ryan lee: Is this a four hour ... [Both laugh, Ash snorts.]

And I mean, to me too, that is magic though. Like the verbiage that you use, the language that you use, the intent behind the language, all of that impact is greater than intent. Intent still matters.

ash alberg: Yes. Yep.
patty ryan lee: But ‘cause when you're drafting a spell ...

ash alberg: [Cackles.] It’s true! Just ‘cause you didn't mean to hex that person doesn't mean it didn't happen.

patty ryan lee: Like it ... when I first saw intent, like “impact is greater than intent,” I was like trying to wrap my head around it and I was like, oh spellcraft. I'm more worried with the outcome ...

ash alberg: Yes
patty ryan lee: ... than with the words I choose. [Laughs.]
ash alberg: Yes. Oh my god.
patty ryan lee: That's what we need to be thinking about here. ash alberg: Yes. A hundred percent. Oh my god, that’s so funny.

Okay so then let's backtrack all the way back and segue into, what does magic and ritual look like in your life? Because you're very witchy.

patty ryan lee: Oh yes. See, and I live under this constant, “Am I witchy enough to like claim that title, claim that word?” Like am I a witch?

I was called witch before I called myself witch. I think people were trying to insult me. I was the weird kid digging in the dirt playing with sticks and trying to do seances and all those kind of stuff.

And I come by it naturally, apparently my great-grandparents did seances. They were masons and were doing all kinds of shit. I don't find out about anything in this family until someone dies, I swear.

ash alberg: [Laughs.] And then they’re like, “Oh, by the way ...”
patty ryan lee: Oh by the way, grandma was in jail with some prostitutes for x,

y, and z.
ash alberg: [Scoffs.] Why didn't you tell me this before so I could have asked

her about it?

patty ryan lee: Right! What? “Grandpa was gay.” What?! “You didn't notice his boyfriend was like, there was a guy with him all the time?” I'm five, what do I know!

It explains family dynamics so much more. But yeah, please use your words. ash alberg: [Snorts.] Oh my god.

patty ryan lee: Hey, so I mean, claiming the word witch for myself was just this freedom. Like holy shit. And once I claimed the idea that oh, I can do this, I realized I've been doing this. [Chuckles.] [Ash cackles.]

You followed natural rhythms, you do this, you do that. And you have these routines and you have these rituals and you come in and out of them.

ash alberg: I'm sorry, I'm going to pause you real quick. I hear something downstairs and I’m going to go check it.

patty ryan lee: Oh, okay. I'm gonna have a sip of water. ash alberg: Be right back.

[Long pause]
patty ryan lee: Is Willow getting into something? [Barking in the background.]

ash alberg: Willow is now up but we’re good. [Sound of Willow’s collar clinking.] Hi! Munchkin. We’re okay.

patty ryan lee: Hi Willow! You can't hear me but hi!

ash alberg: Oh my god.

patty ryan lee: Aww, pupper.

ash alberg: Hi! [To Willow.] No, your help is not needed, thank you.

patty ryan lee: She lives on my blue jean jacket now. I love it, the pin. I love the pin.

ash alberg: Oh my god. So good.

Munchkin, lie down please. [To Willow.] Fuck she likes, she’s looking out the back window now. Okay, so back to what we were talking about before I thought my house was burning down.

patty ryan lee: Oh shit!
ash alberg: I haven't, I literally just have like, on super low heat in the

basement, a burner on but I was like, “I'm hearing a sound.” It’s fine.

patty ryan lee: Oh, now I'm like, “did I turn the oven off when I made my ...” [Both laugh.] Oh, I hate that sensation.

ash alberg: Yep.
patty ryan lee: Oh yeah.

No but where were we ... ah, ritual. Yeah like it ... I was really getting into ritual. Then COVID came along and every ritual that I had in place was up-ended.

ash alberg: Yeah

patty ryan lee: I was like okay, so we'll just live in chaos for awhile. So now it's become ... and I'm allowing myself to let it be. You can have your moments of ritual: pouring a coffee, pulling your tarot card, the little things. Like it doesn't have to be this big spread out everything.

ash alberg: Yeah.

patty ryan lee: Those can be for like sacred things you need to do.

ash alberg: Yeah, but the day ...

patty ryan lee: The everyday thing, yeah. And allowing myself to be okay with that ...

ash alberg: Yyess.
patty ryan lee: ... has taken ... I still have times but it's taken this whole

pandemic for me to realize that's okay.

ash alberg: Yep and is more often than not necessary, right? Like it's ... you're working out your magic muscles and you, it's ... you can't just be like, I'm going to run a marathon and not have been training.

patty ryan lee: Oh no, that's me. [Laughs.]
ash alberg: You can, you're gonna get a lot of shin splints and cramps and

possibly pass out.

patty ryan lee: Yes. No. It's okay, yeah, I'm going to get back into fencing. Let's do it, right? I can't hold the foil anymore.

You gotta go at a slow pace. Remember like, you were doing everything, all the footwork and everything, a year before you picked up the foil.

ash alberg: Oh god. Yeah.

patty ryan lee: You gotta ... I was obsessed. But you gotta ... it impressed my teacher. [Both laugh.] He was like, you already know how to do this. I was like, I've been practicing! [Ash snorts.]

Okay. But yeah, but just allowing myself those little moments. And then with the kid ...

ash alberg: Yes
patty ryan lee: ... finding those moments are harder.

ash alberg: Yes. I feel like this is why it's especially important, you're running a business from home during a pandemic while also needing to parent your kid who is like older but not so old that you can be like, “Cool, go out and play with your friends who are vaccinated” because you're like, the kids aren't old enough to be vaccinated. Like it's old enough that we're not dealing with “keep an eye that the kid doesn't eat a Tide pod” but also not so old that we're going to let you play with all the knives.

patty ryan lee: It just depends on his mood but ... [Ash cackles, both laugh.] It's ... and then it depends on managing the anxiety of my husband with the

liberties that I give our kid.
ash alberg: Oof! Wait, so you and your husband both have anxiety? patty ryan lee: Oh very much so.

ash alberg: Ha! I don't ... like I keep on being like, my dream person is going to be so fucking calm. And any time somebody is like, “I have anxiety,” I'm like oh, I don't know if we can make this work.

patty ryan lee: We balance each other out. Like when he's anxious about something, I'm incredibly calm because then my anxiety is on alert so I'm focused and I'm calm and I can handle. And it's just the just the opposite, when I'm in a [groans] “I can't go to the grocery store because there's COVID everywhere,” he's, “Fucking calm down.”

ash alberg: I feel like that's useful, right? Where your anxiety is, “okay, we can function for different needs” and like, depending on the base level of one then the other one can pick up the slack, basically.

patty ryan lee: Yeah. And then trying to raise a kid without that anxiety ... it's, you don't need to be anxious here dear. This is just something mommy and daddy do. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Do the opposite of what we're doing! patty ryan lee: How do we model ... UGH.
ash alberg: God, ooh. Yeah.

patty ryan lee: So I’m trying ... like even with ... ‘cause he's, “You're a witch?” because we sat down with his teacher. He was in Montessori school before everything, and they go through the alphabet, they go through the sound book, they learn it phonetically first.

She's so showing me this book and I was like, when you get to W, because I saw the picture, it was witch with the nose and the hat and the broom and ...

ash alberg: Ah, yes.

patty ryan lee: I was like, he might say, “Oh, my mommy's a witch” and not mean anything about it. I just want you to be aware I am a practicing witch. And it's that moment of, oh, I'm saying this out loud. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Yes!
patty ryan lee: And then they're like, “Oh! That's awesome! We had a tarot

reader do this and that.” Okay, cool, all right. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: But it is a thing of not knowing how people are necessarily going to respond. And I frequently forget that witch is a pejorative to a lot of people. [Patty chuckles.] I'm just like yeah, I’m a witch! And they're like, why would you call yourself that? Because I actually am.

patty ryan lee: Yeah. I was writing this down, I was like ... ‘cause I was like what does –

[Deep boom sounds in the background.]
Did you hear that boom?
ash alberg: I ... yes, I did
patty ryan lee: If that was a transformer I'm about to lose power. ash alberg: Oh shit.

patty ryan lee: Or ... [dog barks] well, there's the dog or my neighbors are setting off fireworks. Yeeahh. [Dog continues barking.]

ash alberg: Fun times.

patty ryan lee: So this set of mortars, I’m like, why do you need a 30lb mortar?

ash alberg: That makes no sense. Also it's Friday at 3:30, what the fuck?

patty ryan lee: I don’t know.

ash alberg: And Juneteenth isn’t until tomorrow. Tell them Juneteenth is tomorrow.

patty ryan lee: Oh, don't ... In this neighborhood? ash alberg: Oh, not Juneteenth?
patty ryan lee: Not Juneteenth.
ash alberg: Oh shit.

patty ryan lee: They would be celebrating January 6 in this neighborhood. ash alberg: That's terrifying.

patty ryan lee: Yeah. So it's ... we have to be like, I'm okay with saying I'm a witch a lot easier than I am saying I'm a Democrat in this area. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: That is terrifying, oh my God.

patty ryan lee: Yeah. It's ... we're constantly looking to move.

ash alberg: Yeah.

patty ryan lee: But yeah you may or may not want to keep that in there, I don't know. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: I might take it out just for your own safety. [Patty laugh-snorts.]

patty ryan lee: I appreciate that. But like with the word witch is ... ‘cause I, when I come up in like the virtual business meetings and stuff that I'm in, “What do you do?” The tagline I have is so fucking straightforward: I make websites for witches. People just either lean really into it – “Oh, that's awesome!” or [gasps] “You do what?”

ash alberg: Yeah, it's like very clear attract or repel marketing.

patty ryan lee: Very much so. It was like pearl clutching, “Oh what did you just say?” And then when I explain it, which I've also found interesting, like who I encompass as witch within the membership, they’re like “Oh, I'm into that!”

ash alberg: I find this so interesting where people are like witches just are this very specific thing. It's, okay, this and this. And they're like uuhh ...

patty ryan lee: “Oh. I do that. Does that mean I'm a witch?” I'm like, sure. ash alberg: If you want to be, like you can claim that. I think this is ... patty ryan lee: If you want to take that on, that's up to you.

ash alberg: Yes. And I think that's part of it too. It's like, anybody can be a witch, it runs across all backgrounds. The specific word, again coming back to language, that we may use may not be witch but there are healers and mystics and folks who are edge walkers and commune with spirits and the bajillion of other ways that we enact our witchcraft across the board.

But if you're going to actually say, “I'm a witch” then there is like a level of responsibility? Maybe? Is the word I want. I am actually quite annoyed

whenever I hear people who are like, “I'm a witch, I'm a woman in control of myself.” What is it, woman in total control of herself or something like that?

And I'm like what the fuck. Like a. it's like overwhelmingly used by cis women only and then it's also just fucking weird and it has actually nothing to do with actual witchcraft. Congratulations, you're a woman. Also nobody's in control of themselves. You saying that makes me a little terrified of you ‘cause it means you're not self-aware at all.

patty ryan lee: [Chuckles.] It's like, where are you on this learning curve? ash alberg: Yyeess. Yes.

patty ryan lee: Like where ... okay, when I say witch, like if it's a line, where are you? [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yeah, that's like at the very beginning of the line.
patty ryan lee: That would be okay, yes, I'm open to this idea of what it means

to be witch. I ... that's fun, it's Instagrammable, it's a dah dah dah.

ash alberg: Yes. Like I haven't even actually stepped onto the line yet ‘cause that takes a little bit more work than I am willing to commit myself to. I've maybe visited a trendy witch store that I saw on Instagram once.

patty ryan lee: Yeah.
ash alberg: I love these witch stores, I will very happily go and frequent them

myself. However ...
patty ryan lee: I love that it's like not this creepy thing to do anymore. ash alberg: Yes. Oh my god.

patty ryan lee: Like when I lived in Chicago, like there's an occult shop on every corner. And I'm sure it's worse now, but your version of an occult shop and my version of an occult shop growing up ... Very ... we did not have house witch. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Or Seagrape Apothecary or yeah.

patty ryan lee: It was not like walking into Urban Outfitters. ash alberg: No, it was more like walking into Hot Topic.

patty ryan lee: Okay, that even was like a sanitized version. Like walking into the Alley in Chicago - if anybody is in Chicago listening, if you've been to the Alley you remember it was hipster - that's very Hot Topic-ish. I'm talking about the corner store attached behind the alley ... [Ash cackles.]

ash alberg: Yes! [Snorts.]

patty ryan lee: But you walk in there, it's “what is that smell?”

ash alberg: Mhmmm. ‘Cause there's a very distinctive smell always.

patty ryan lee: Always. And “why are the eyes on that mask following me?” kind of place.

ash alberg: Yes, and the walls have been painted black intentionally. patty ryan lee: Yes. Like it wasn't just this cool thing to do. It's no, there's

something under that paint.

ash alberg: Yeah. Yes, exactly. Oh, that's a little terrifying. They like drew some things onto those walls that maybe I don't want to know what spells you cast.

patty ryan lee: Exactly. Okay. And then you get into like, warlock versus witch. Language again. And it's, oh, that was the occult shop that I grew up with. ‘Cause like because my sister was the witch of the family, and she's 10 years older than me, and so when I would visit her there, it's “yeah, okay, we can go here.”

And my mom was like ehhh and my dad was like embrace everything holy. [Ash cackles and snorts.] No, we're not going anywhere near that! So it was an interesting paradigm.

But yeah it was ... but no, to say you're a witch is, for me, is to take on the responsibility of that word. I don't say it lightly because I understand its history.

ash alberg: Yes. Yep.
patty ryan lee: Yes, I am a part of that. You come knocking on my door, I say

with the shaking breath, “Yes, I am.”
ash alberg: Yeah.
patty ryan lee: And I deal with the consequences.

ash alberg: And that's the thing right, is that there are still consequences. And especially when we start talking about spell work and spirit work, like people are really fucking uncomfortable with that. And there's folks where I'm just like, yeah, here's some herbs. Like you just keep it at a level. They're like, we don't need to go a little more into this.

And it's only been recently that I've been talking as openly as I have about ghosts and my ... and which you have met them. Yeah. It's years, most of my life, like at a solid two and a half decades of my life they've been hanging out and just I've fucking told nobody about them because that means something else depending on who you are speaking to. And it engenders a level of fear that can be dangerous for you, potentially.

patty ryan lee: Yes. Yeah.
And it's that's why it's finding people ... like saying the word will attract or

repel. That's marketing. And then it attracts and repels within. ash alberg: Yes.

patty ryan lee: ‘Cause where are you at again on that spectrum, in that line, in that wheel, where are you?

ash alberg: Yup.
patty ryan lee: And then you can really find ... like our little group, some tight

knit bitches.
ash alberg: Yes! Yes. Yep.
patty ryan lee: I interplay B and W a lot.

ash alberg: Yeah, because it's true though. It's ... and we're intentional, and like we say bitches in that situation with so much fucking love. And I don't, I ... it's cunt. I love that word and I will use it for things that I love deeply and also things that piss me the fuck off. Like it is one extreme or the other and I will use it for both.

And it will depend on the context in which ... and you will know exactly the way that I'm using it when I use it. But it's the same with bitch and it's so interesting because it is a term that I personally am extremely comfortable with most of the time. Like if you call me a bitch, I'm like yeah, I am, like a hundred percent.

I have the world's best resting bitch face that I honed in London because I had to out of necessity. And also if I ever had a partner just casually call me a bitch I'd be like, fuck you, we're breaking up.

patty ryan lee: Fuck you. Oh, it's on. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: It's there ... there is still very much that ... I will use it very intentionally and I will, when I use it for others, I will use ... like if I'm talking about a friend then I'm using it with so much love. And if you just casually call us that word, or me that word, that ... no, like you are invoking something that you don't want.

patty ryan lee: It's like, even the word witch. If I called, “You witch!” [aggressive tone] is very different from, “You witch.” [empowering tone.] [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Yes exactly. It's that level of like, how if we are going to use it? Then we use it intentionally. And whether that intention is for so much love or so much just like [growls] but to use it casually is inappropriate, right?

Like I'm not just going to casually throw cunt into a sentence. I just did but ... [Patty laughs.] It's not, I don't drop it in the same way that I drop fuck into every sentence, right? That's ... it is a word that has very specific contexts in which I will use it.

And for two very extreme ... like one side and the other, but I don't use it casually because there is too much weight to that word. And particularly for femmes. And I think maybe that's also why witch and bitch also fall within that category of like, for the femmes of all genders there is so much weight attached

to each of those words that if you are going to use them to describe somebody then it needs to have a reason.

It's not a word that you just drop casually into a conversation or to just casually use amongst other terms for that person.

patty ryan lee: Yeah. There's a level of intimacy with it. ash alberg: Yeah. Yes.
patty ryan lee: Yeah.

ash alberg: Huuhhh. Talking for a really long time but I think we did ... we covered “what do you do in the world” and your relationship with ritual and magic and how that works in your biz. And it is obviously very central. We'll start to wrap it up maybe, so tell me, what is something that you wish you'd been told about magic or ritual or witchcraft when you were younger?

patty ryan lee: That it was okay. Mostly. Like one, if you'd been open about my history and the family ... you're doing all this shit.

ash alberg: Yes. [Both laugh.]
patty ryan lee: That's ... come on! Like it's, okay, yeah I probably wouldn't

have shut down as much as a kid about it all. Yeah.

Yeah, mostly that it's just it's okay, and there are moments that it might be scary. Work through that fear.

ash alberg: Yyesss.
patty ryan lee: Don't shut it down. Don't push it away. Don't wrap it up in a

neat little bow and put it on the shelf.
ash alberg: Yeah, ‘cause it's not going to stay there.

patty ryan lee: You’re gonna work through therapy when you're in your thirties. Open that box. But it's the ... life is magic. Like it's ... the fact that we are sitting here talking through crystals [Ash laughs.] I'm looking at you through a liquid crystal display. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: That’s true! Oh my god. Yeah.
patty ryan lee: There's a magnetic field in this microphone that's going through

cables, some of it fiber optic, literally light. ash alberg: Maaaan!
patty ryan lee: I'm a tech witch. Like it ... ash alberg: I love this though!

patty ryan lee: That is magic. That is fucking magic. ash alberg: Oh my god.

patty ryan lee: Yeah, I wish that somebody had gone ... just made it just part of the everyday, like what I'm doing with my kid. It's mundane everyday shit. It is sometimes the most magical.

ash alberg: Yes. Your kid’s lucky.

patty ryan lee: I like to think so. And as I fill up his therapy fund we ... screw college [Ash cackles.] We're keeping a therapy jar. Yup, I recognize I'm going to correct some things and not correct others.

ash alberg: You're going to need this eventually, it's beside your college fund, there you go.

patty ryan lee: Oh, screw college. Like it's just ... fuck college. Oh.

But yeah, it ... not to say if you went to college ... that's great though. I was not. I tried. But I'm in this position because my husband did go to college and he did like the expected everything and ... which allows me to not. I'm an Aquarius, he's a Pisces, so come on. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Oh my, what a pairing!

patty ryan lee: Yeah. Sagittarius rising. Yeah. Oh yeah. I found his chart and I was like, that makes a lot of sense now.

But, and then there's tools that you can use like astrology to help you understand people. Like, why is my kid going on like this? What did I do? What's going on? What's his blood sugar? What's going on in his chart?

ash alberg: Mhmmm. [Patty laughs.] Yep, what are the stars and planets doing today? Oohh!

patty ryan lee: Oh that, okay, yeah, all right. Yeah, Mars on top of your natal Mars that's ... [clears throat] explains your language for the day but ... [both laugh.] Please stop. All right.

But yeah but there's just the ... magic is everything. Everything is magic. ash alberg: Mhm. Mhm. I love that. So, what's next for you then?

patty ryan lee: Oh are we talking ... ‘cause then my brain goes are we talking literally today? Are we talking ...

ash alberg: What's next for ... how about, what's next for The Fiery Well and your work plans at this point? Short and long-term.

patty ryan lee: Oh, short term I want to get focused and finish my framework so that I can help more witches at once, and long-term I want to see witches value themselves in the work that they do and set up the systems to support them doing it so that more people can benefit from the idea that everything is magic.

ash alberg: Yes! Ugh. Goddamn.
patty ryan lee: ‘Cause y'all, I'm telling you now, I'm staring at the microphone,

I’m telling you all now, stop with your website. [Ash cackles.]

Focus on what you do and who you do it for and do it. The website will come later.

ash alberg: And it doesn't need to be as fancy as you think it does. patty ryan lee: No. Oh geez. So your website can be acuity and that's it. ash alberg: Yes. Yup.

patty ryan lee: And that's it.

ash alberg: Yup. That's true.

patty ryan lee: That's a website.

ash alberg: Especially if you're a service-based ... if you're just fucking tarot readings, you actually don't need a whole website.

patty ryan lee: No! I would ... Yeah, no, not until you're getting into content creation and putting more of your voice and your thinking and how you work with the cards and how you work with ... how you work, and you want to illustrate that to more people. Then get the website

ash alberg: And in that situation then you are going to want a website slash newsletter list rather than social media because you can at least control those things. In theory.

patty ryan lee: Don’t even get me started on that. Yeah. Own your shit. Own your shit. You do not own Instagram. You do not own Facebook. You don't own Twitter. You don't own anything. Like I was looking for an astrologer last year when I was not on social media ...

ash alberg: Yes! And you couldn't find anybody, I remember this. patty ryan lee: I couldn't find one!
ash alberg: It was all those fucking websites.

patty ryan lee: I was looking every fucking where. Those that didn't have websites were on Twitter working constantly. Those that had websites were fully booked.

ash alberg: Ahh, oh my god, this makes so much fucking sense. Because yeah, they're not wasting their fucking time doing content ... and again I enjoy content creation so when people are ... You don't need to schedule every single thing.

Like you don't need to schedule every day on ... So on Instagram I'm like, I actually don't mind doing it because I batch my photography, I'm a creative person, I'm constantly making. There's always something new that I could

photograph. That being said I don't want to be reliant on needing to post that frequently in order for sales to happen.

patty ryan lee: When you're posting ... because that's the thing, especially when you're product-based, it's a different world than when you're service-based.

ash alberg: Yes

patty ryan lee: And so it's, I'm narrowing that niche, however you say it, further down. It's, I can't help you if you're product-based. That's not my world. I don't want it to be my world. Service-based.

ash alberg: Yep.
patty ryan lee: Focus on what you're doing. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: This makes so much sense because it also means that if you do choose to go to the social media route, you could literally just set up an Instagram page, make a nine by nine, or a three by three for nine posts grid, and that's literally all that you would necessarily need to do if you're service based. You have a footprint on the space, you have a few images that if people go to your profile they can see them, and then otherwise if you want to stick something on your stories or make a reel or something you could do that. But it's really not necessary to be constantly putting out content.

patty ryan lee: You have to pay attention to 1. what you want to do, because if you don't want to do it, it's going to show up in how you do it.

ash alberg: Oh god. Yeah. I've given up on Facebook. [Laughs.]

patty ryan lee: Yeah. I don't ... Yeah, the Facebook. [Sighs.] I'm back on that whole boycotting ... you know what ... it's like, what are you saying to other people? It's ... I fucking hate Facebook. Oh, I need, I want Facebook groups to just go away but ...

ash alberg: Oh my god yes.

patty ryan lee: And that's the other thing, if you have a newsletter and you're sending people someplace, send them to your website. Don't send them to your Facebook group. Don't send them to Instagram. Don't send them to Twitter.

Send them to where you own your shit and you have another call to action that leads them down that ... think of that path you want that person to take when they click that link. Where are they going?

But the time you're spending creating content is time you're not spending getting clients.

ash alberg: That makes so much fucking sense. I ... sorry, my brain just went back to the whole “make your version of Linktree on your fucking website” and I'm like, that's what I'm doing next. [Snort-laughs.] We're going to hop off this call and I'm going to do that.

patty ryan lee: And then 2. then there's legal things. ash alberg: Yes.

patty ryan lee: When you do your own website because Linktree, depending on how they have it set up with GDPR, CCPA, and all the privacy policies and the cookie banners that we all ignore when we click on them [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Uh huh. Yup.
patty ryan lee: That you're agreeing, “Yes, I can put this bot on your computer

while you're on this website and track everything about you.” I did what?!

ash alberg: I like yeah ... [Laughs.] Which like realistically, if you run a website you actually have to have in order for the website to fucking function.

patty ryan lee: No, you don't. ash alberg: Oh, you don't? patty ryan lee: You don't. ash alberg: You could ...

patty ryan lee: So the other website I have is getonlinewitch.com and I ... five lessons teach you to go from fucking overwhelmed to online. Not a website. Online. Online presence.

ash alberg: Okay.
patty ryan lee: I don't have Google analytics on there. I'm not tracking you. I

don't give a fuck.

ash alberg: ‘Cause if you're not using that information, which realistically, anybody who's not a gigantic corporation doesn't need that data

patty ryan lee: I have analytics on the site. I use a privacy forward privacy first analytics system that does not track anything about you other than the fact that you landed on the website.

‘Cause I don't care. I don't need to know that you're looking at it from an iPhone 7 with this iOS version on it.

ash alberg: Right, yeah.

patty ryan lee: In this city

ash alberg: Yep.

patty ryan lee: And you're eating Doritos at the same time? [Ash laughs.] I don't need to know that. I don't, I have no desire to know that.

ash alberg: Yeah.
patty ryan lee: All I want to know is if you sign up and if you sign up I have

your email address
ash alberg: Right.
patty ryan lee: There's not an EU banner on there because there's no cookies. ash alberg: Yeah. You don't ...

patty ryan lee: I don't need it. Now, I lie. There is a cookie on there from Stripe.

ash alberg: Right, yes.
patty ryan lee: That is for fraud prevention. ash alberg: Yep.

patty ryan lee: Because I just have that there, sitting there at the moment because additional things are happening to getonlinewitch.com and I'll be offering digital products on that site.

ash alberg: Right.
patty ryan lee: That's still ... I don't care beyond that.

I'm very much about privacy first and yet I'm ingrained in the Google ecosystem. [Ash laughs.]

ash alberg: Which is literally the opposite.
patty ryan lee: Literally, quite literally the opposite.

When my host went to Google “Cloud Flare,” I cried. Like why? Because it's efficient and it loads and it's ... I'm like okay fine, but it's Google.

ash alberg: Yeah.
patty ryan lee: Zoom has privacy issues. Like it's just ... ash alberg: They all do.
patty ryan lee: They all do.

ash alberg: You gotta figure out like, which ones are you willing to put up with? Which ones are you not? I like ... it's why I use Instagram and not Facebook. Instagram it's much easier for me to control if somebody’s trolling or I'm concerned for some reason or I'm just like having a shitty day and I don't

want to see their shit but I don't want to completely block them. Then I can mute them.

But like the blocking one in particular, just the safety aspect of it for me and for the rest of my audience. I'm like no, I want that capability and Facebook doesn't give you that option. Which is fucking wild because it's the same fucking company but yeah.

So I'm like okay, I'm not going to be making a point of doing regular content creation and growing an audience on a space that I do not have control or at least like basic control over whether or not a troll comes into my space and starts fucking with shit and starts making it unsafe for me and for other people.

patty ryan lee: I don't like not having control. [Both laugh.] ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah.
patty ryan lee: Yeah.No.

That's why I do everything on WordPress. I like to have that granular control. Yeah. But yeah, no, it's do what you love, do what you want to do first and foremost. Prioritize what you want to do. Website will come later. You want me to make your website, I'll make it for you but not unless you're established.

ash alberg: This makes sense too. Oh my god, the number of folks ... and I think COVID definitely is playing a factor in this but the number of people who are starting web businesses right now, web-based businesses, and have no fucking clue what they want to offer and are meanwhile filling up all of the spaces in the coaching groups that used to be decent because the people that were in there had a few years of business under their belts and were looking for a little bit of coaching to help refine. And now all of a sudden it's all these people who literally have zero clients and have never had a client and don't even know what they're offering and they're taking the same program and it’s like, oh my god, I need to just remove myself from this now because ...

patty ryan lee: I mean that that's also on the part of the person selling the program.

ash alberg: Oh a hundred percent. Yeah.

patty ryan lee: And because it's ... and because when I started The Fiery Well it's, if you have a website, I'll help you. And now it’s like, no.

ash alberg: No.
patty ryan lee: If you have a business, I'll help. If you're service-based, I'll help

you.
ash alberg: Yeah.

patty ryan lee: If you're service-based and you realize the website's not important, I'll help you.

ash alberg: Yeah.

patty ryan lee: Which, I've been doing this since ’96. I can build you a fucking website. And I hate to say it as a web developer, hurts my little heart, you don't need a fucking website. You don't.

You need to work on what you're doing. You need to focus on what you're doing and what it is so that you have a website to put together.

ash alberg: Yeah. Like you're putting the horse a few ... I don't even know what the analogy I was going to go there ... or metaphor. But you're going a few steps ahead if you're trying to build a thing before you even know what the fuck it is you're trying to build it for.

patty ryan lee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
ash alberg: Hence not hiring a VA until I have some more systems in place ...

patty ryan lee: Set up the ... and too, in part a VA can help you set up those systems.

ash alberg: Right, yeah. That's true.
patty ryan lee: Because again, your zone of genius is not hiring a VA. ash alberg: No.

patty ryan lee: The VA zone of genius is being a VA. ash alberg: Right.

patty ryan lee: And they can go, “This is what you need.” So really I would say you need more of an operations business manager than a VA because they're going to be on the outside going, “These are the systems you need before you do a damn thing.” [Laughs.]

ash alberg: I'm just going to casually write this down on a sticky note. Nobody can see me because this is just audio but I am literally writing this on a sticky note right now.

patty ryan lee: Or you can come inside the Fiery Well and there is a recorded workshop that we had someone come in and walk us through doing like an org chart and systems operating procedures and things.

ash alberg: Oh my god. I'm doing a content ops workshop on Monday through Wednesday next week and I'm so stoked! But also it took me literally reading Atomic Habits to be like, oh this is why I need this shit. Yeah.

patty ryan lee: Yeah. Details. It's all in the details.
ash alberg: Yes. Which then allow you to rule things without needing to spend

so much fucking time thinking about them.

patty ryan lee: Yeah. It's ... getonlinewitch, it's not going to teach you how to build a website. It's going to teach you how to get the name, get your email list, realize you don't need a fucking brand. Get out there.

The Fiery ... the framework - hopefully by the time this airs, is done - is a nine step system. And the last step is the website.

ash alberg: Yeah.
patty ryan lee: Last! Last step.
ash alberg: Do the other fucking work they need to do first.

patty ryan lee: Oh, I put you ... like there's a disclaimer, and members have said, “My therapists don't ask these kinds of questions.”

ash alberg: That is hilarious.

patty ryan lee: It’s, the first module is all about figuring out why the fuck you're doing what you're doing, and you got to get real serious with yourself. And yeah. It's a workbook.

Like it's ... yeah. And then when I talk, when I ask you questions about your ideal client, I don't care what city they live in. I don't care what money they make. I don't care how tall they are. I don't care what school they went to. [Ash giggles.]

You shouldn't either. [Laughs.] Yeah. So I go about things very backwards apparently but you gotta start with why to end up with the how.

ash alberg: That makes a lot of sense. [Laughs.]

I feel like it took me much longer than probably it needed to do to figure out why and ... well I guess the how was just always just innate but then like why and who and like really distilling everything down into I do so many things, and how do I say it from just a “here's what we do and how are we helping and who we're helping.” Which people will hear at the very end of this episode when I do a little blurbedy blurb. [Laughs.]

patty ryan lee: And that changes. That will evolve. It will change the longer you're in business.

ash alberg: Totally. Yes, exactly.
patty ryan lee: That's that ...
ash alberg: That's okay!
patty ryan lee: That's okay! Oh my word.

ash alberg: I think that's part of it too. It's like, in the same way that we were talking earlier about, you have to just be always learning. You're always

learning and you're always changing and you're always evolving and so will your business.

If your business is a living organism in the way that we hope it is, so that it is responsive to things, so that it is able to navigate with you and move with you and support you and your employees in however you need to be supported, that means there needs to be some flexibility. A lot of flexibility.

patty ryan lee: Yup.
ash alberg: And yeah. If you try to be stagnant or you try to be too stiff, you're

not a fucking mountain. And even if you are a mountain, mountains wear down. patty ryan lee: Mountains move.
ash alberg: Nope.
patty ryan lee: What is the song? I don't know. But ... [both laugh.]

I now have that song in my ... I don't even know what it is. But like ... and even in the framework, I talk ... a lot of people like to call their business their baby because you are like nurturing this thing. And then there's a messy birth process [both laugh.] There really is.

It's not neat and tidy and it never goes as planned. And then there's this thing. Are you going to keep it an infant or are you going to let it grow up and be autonomous and its own thing?

ash alberg: Oh my god.
patty ryan lee: You have to allow it to evolve. You have to. ash alberg: Really good analogy. [Chuckles.]
patty ryan lee: You have to!

ash alberg: Yeah, because also you eventually need some space away from it. Like ...

patty ryan lee: Exactly. Mama needs a vacation [Ash cackles.] But, and if you never let it change, you'll never change.

ash alberg: Yes.
patty ryan lee: Or you'll work twice as hard not to change.

ash alberg: Yeah. Which ultimately does none of us any good. And your therapist is going to whack you over the head eventually with a ...

patty ryan lee: You're going to be spending your money on nothing but therapy to try and figure out, “Why am I making you money in my business?”

ash alberg: Yes.
patty ryan lee: What is this thing? If I had stuck with what the Fiery Well was

going to be ...
ash alberg: You wouldn't be where you are.
patty ryan lee: I would not be where I am. I would never have met y’all. Right? ash alberg: That’s so sad! I’m so glad that you did.

patty ryan lee: I had to let it become and flow into being its own thing. And right now it's throwing a toddler temper tantrum. [Ash cackles.] So we're going to let it calm down and use our words later and figure out what it's actually trying to say. There's a tornado warning.

ash alberg: Oh, right.
patty ryan lee: So. Welcome to Ohio. You can hear how nonchalantly I said

that.
ash alberg: Oh shit.

patty ryan lee: Ah, but yeah. So yeah. You gotta ... It's yeah. My perspective is, I have a kid so I can have that analogy fresh in my head but ...

ash alberg: That's a good one.

patty ryan lee: It's ... it fits.

ash alberg: Yeah. Whether you have tiny spawn or not.

patty ryan lee: Yeah, even with plants! Fur babies!

ash alberg: Oh my god.

patty ryan lee: If I had tried to keep my dog puppy? [Both laugh.] There'd be piss all over my floor.

ash alberg: Yes. Yup. It's not cute. Once they are 90 pounds that is no longer cute.

patty ryan lee: No. Oh no. 45 is enough.
ash alberg: Just double it and then you got Willow. Also add on some anxiety

on top of that.
patty ryan lee: Oh no. Can't do it.

ash alberg: Too funny. Thank you. Since you have a tornado warning and also we've been talking for two hours, in theory I suppose we should wrap up. [Laughs.]

patty ryan lee: I hope I answered your questions. I've had a lot of fun. It's very easy to talk with you and I love that. And I love Snort and Cackle! Like I never purchased a domain quicker.

ash alberg: Oh yeah. Yeah, so Patty is the reason that we have Snort and Cackle.

patty ryan lee: Yeah.

ash alberg: Because I was half delirious and we were on a Zoom call with some friends and somebody said Snort and Cackle because I went into delirious cackling.

patty ryan lee: We love Ash’s cackle. [Ash cackles.] Your snort! It’s like, how can I get Ash to snort today? What can I say? What can I do? Yeah.

ash alberg: It doesn’t take too much but yeah. I ... yep. And then as a direct result of that whole conversation, then you had purchased it before we were off of the call. [Cackles.]

patty ryan lee: Oh, I did it that minute. I'm like, no, is it available? Okay. Yep, it's it's available on social. What do you want?Let's grab it [Laughs.] Even if you never use it ...

ash alberg: [Cackles.] And then we realized it needed to be used.
patty ryan lee: [Chuckles.] You came in like, “I'm doing a podcast” and it's,

fuck yes! Let's do it.

ash alberg: [Laughs.] Oh man. So yeah. Also, if you hate the podcast you can semi-blame Patty and both of us are just going to laugh at you.

patty ryan lee: Yes, pretty much. But ‘cause that sounds like a you problem to me. [Both laugh. Ash cackles.]

ash alberg: A hundred percent.
patty ryan lee: ... is my response now. And I don't know if that's like the

thirties? I'm getting closer to 40.
ash alberg: I know. It's just, I don't give a fuuuck.

patty ryan lee: I don’t care! That’s a you. You don't like that I call myself a witch? That's a you problem.

ash alberg: Yep. [Laughs.]
patty ryan lee: Plug your ears. Yeah.
ash alberg: Oh man I love it. Thank you, my love, for doing it.

patty ryan lee: You're welcome! Thank you, I had a blast. Nerves gone. [Ash laughs.] Absolutely loved it. Yeah.

ash alberg: Good! Thank you. patty ryan lee: You’re welcome.

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] You can find full episode recordings and transcripts at snortandcackle.com. Just click on podcast in the main menu. Follow Snort and Cackle on Instagram @snortandcackle and join our seasonal book club with @SnortandCackleBookClub. Don't forget to subscribe and review the podcast by your favorite podcasting platform.

Editing provided by Noah Gilroy, recording and mixing by Ash Alberg, music by Yesable.