season 4, episode 2 - planting possibilities with lourdes still

our guest for episode 2 is lourdes still! lourdes is the creative behind masagana flower farm & studio, a small-scale flower farm, dye studio and new tourism destination near la broquerie, manitoba. in this immigrant, filipina-lead small business, lourdes places her priority on sustainable growing practices. she grows seasonal blooms, dye plants and makes hand made, small batch naturally dyed textile goods. she grows crops without synthetic fertilizers in garden beds where lawns previously existed. she advocates for an eco-conscious lifestyle and inspires others to re-imagine their greenspaces. she believes that growing joy (through flowers) and creating magic (through dye plants) is right at our fingertips and our gardens present opportunities to respond positively to the climate emergency. you can find her online at masaganaflowerfarm.com and on instagram @masaganaflowerfarm.

each season we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #snortandcacklebookclub, with a book review by ash and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. this season's #snortandcacklebookclub read is babaylan sing back: philippine shamans and voice, gender, and place by grace nono.

take the fibre witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz. follow us on instagram @snortandcackle and be sure to subscribe via your favourite podcasting app so you don't miss an episode!

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transcript

snort & cackle - season 4, episode 2 - lourdes still

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] Hello, and welcome to the Snort and Cackle podcast. I'm your host, Ash Alberg. I'm a queer fibre witch and hedgewitch. And each week I interview a fellow boss witch to discuss how everyday magic helps them make their life and the wider world, a better place.

Expect serious discussions about intersections of privilege and oppression, big C versus small C capitalism, rituals, sustainability, astrology, ancestral work, and a whole lot of snorts and cackles. Each season, we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #SnortAndCackleBookClub with a book review by me and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. Our book this season is Babaylan Sing Back: Philippine Shamans and Voice, Gender and Place by Grace Nono.

Whether you're an aspiring boss witch looking to start your knitwear design business, a plant witch looking to play more with your local naturally dyed color palette or a knit witch wondering just what the hell is a natural yarn and how do you use it in your favorite patterns, we've got the solution for you.

Take the free fiber witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz and find out which self-paced online program will help you take your dreams into reality. Visit ashalberg.com/quiz [upbeat music fades out] and then join fellow fiber witches in the Creative Coven Community at ashalberg.com/creative-coven-community for 24/7 access to Ash’s favorite resources, monthly zoom knit nights, and more. [End of intro.]

I am here today with Lourdes Still, who is the creative behind Masagana Flower Farm and Studio, a small-scale flower farm, dye studio, a new tourism destination near La Broquerie, Manitoba. In this immigrant Filipino-led small business, Lourdes places her priority on sustainable growing practices.

She grows seasonal blooms, dye plants, and makes handmade small batch naturally dyed textile goods. She grows crops without synthetic fertilizers in garden beds where lawns previously existed, which I super love. She advocates for an eco-conscious lifestyle and inspires others to re-imagine their green spaces.

She believes that growing joy through flowers and creating magic through dye plants is right at our fingertips and our gardens present opportunities to respond positively to the climate emergency. Hi Lourdes.

lourdes still: Hi, thank you Ash. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

ash alberg: I'm excited to have you. This is really funny ‘cause like I, when I think of who are the natural dyers in our province, it's we're on a very tiny list and we haven't actually hung out in person yet, but I feel like you started really doing dye stuff, like almost in line with when pandemic life hit, so ...

lourdes still: Yeaah, exactly. And now that I'm into this role and then just like really learning people like you, and I can't believe that you've been doing this for almost 10 years, isn't it?

ash alberg: Yeah. It's been a long time. [Laughs.]
lourdes still: But I'm only, I've only scratched the surface. I know that. And

there's so much to learn and I'm, and I'm here for it.

ash alberg: I love it. And I, like the thing that I super love about it is that I meet the combo of growing the dye plants and then like using what you have grown to then infuse really beautiful textiles.

So I very much focus my practice on wool and yarn, but you do a lot of more like cloth and especially like silk and cotton and then eco printing, which is, I've always found eco-printing to be like, so hit and miss for me. And you just like always get some really beautiful stuff happening.

lourdes still: Oh, my gosh. So 2020. So I did play around with the eco-printing on cotton and silk scarves. And now I dunno, so second, third year into it. I just realized that I have to scale it back or ... and I’m really finding that eco print on silk scarf is just very satisfying, compared to the cotton bandanas, unless, and just realizing and learning how much more like prep that is involved in it.

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah. Cellulose versus protein fibers. And people don't get that. And I feel like, especially when people get started with dyeing, like I consider myself lucky in loving working with yarn and specifically wool yarn, is a different beast in terms of the techniques that you use so that like your yarn doesn't get tangled and then making sure that you're not felting your fiber.

You can cook the shit out of cotton and it'll be fine. [Lourdes giggles.] Cellulose fibers still like, yeah, we ...

lourdes still: More forgivable.

ash alberg: Yeah, they're really like, silk just loves to take the dye and wool loves to take the dye, but I feel like a lot of people get started trying to play with cotton or linen fabric, whether it's like scraps or whatever, and then they're like, oh, this isn't working. And it's because like they've opted for stuff that honestly doesn't really like to take dyes and you have to do so much more to get that.

Like once ... [Both talk at the same time, audio distortion.] Yeah. Yeah.

lourdes still: Yeah. And so in 2021, I think just because the business had shifted and just knowing how much more ... and because I do sell the pieces and then I do guide the people in my tinta experience to do that, and so I think just like managing my energy, even though I do love to play on both because they give ... they, they have this different depth of like colors in both.

But I think just like in managing and trying, you know what, let's not do everything.

ash alberg: Yeah. [Laughs.] You're working much smarter than I ever have in my biz. It takes me like several years to realize oh, maybe this isn't a good way of doing things.

lourdes still: So I think in this way, so I focus now on the cotton, more on the using it for indigo dying. Which it gives, I think it gives that same satisfaction as what I'm getting with just focusing the eco-printing on silk scarves and I'm happy with that. But it doesn't mean but now that I'm building that studio like this spring and summer, and I think now I would have just a dedicated space and that, and then, okay, I will play more on that.

Yeah and even using those different tannins. Oh and the cellulose ones so that I can get those depth of colors that I would see in books, I would see in Maiwa because I did took a couple of their courses. And I'm so excited to dip my toes or try my hands on the yarn as well, so I actually started subscribing to Anna's breed of the month because yeah, I really want eventually I think, I think in the long-term, because I embrace sustainability in my work I really want to, most of my pieces, my blacks to be as close to home as I can.

And so I really, I'm excited to know to learn about these different yarns and especially the ones that probably were grown and raised in Manitoba. I would love that. So ...

ash alberg: Yeah.

lourdes still: That is in the long-term and but yeah, but I started subscribing and I haven't actually gotten my pieces, but I'm really excited to, to learn about the breeds of this wool yarn that I'm going to be getting.

ash alberg: Yeah and it's neat too ‘cause like different breeds can make a really big difference on the end color, which I, like it's so much fun when like even when we can control different parts of the process, there's still that like agricultural natural bit that like you can grow your plants in the exact same soil in the exact same location, even if you like go greenhouse style and you like really try and control the growing situations, there are still going to be differences from harvest to harvest and that's going to impact your color.

And maybe it'll be a really visible shift. Maybe it won't be that obvious, but there's, it's never the same. And that's part of the fun.

lourdes still: Yeah. And you saying that actually just reminded me, as someone asked me in a different context, it was, she was asking about, someone was asking me about like full-proof recipe on the indigo extraction.

ash alberg: Ah huh.

lourdes still: So I just re-putting that question into what you're trying to say, because I think in the short years that I'm doing natural dyeing, that is like one of the shift in me.

And I realized like how much we were like trained to what is, what looks good and what the standards should be in terms of colors.

ash alberg: Yeeesss.

lourdes still: But then but because we live in colors and with the natural materials that we're working on ... I don't know, it's giving me goosebumps right now because you have to be open to that.

You may have an end goal but be open to throw those expectations of the window and embrace in our only ... mostly the process, really. And then I feel

like the end product is just, it's not even, sometimes it's not even like the end goal for me. It's more like the learning process or what do I get, what do I learn in doing it?

ash alberg: Yes.

lourdes still: So there's no foolproof. Yeah, there is guidelines, like recipes that you will find but oh my gosh, but you really have to be open with the process and then what you're actually going to get, because there are so many factors to consider, or variables.

ash alberg: Yeah.
lourdes still: In the process, very personal.

ash alberg: Yes. That too. I'm like, yeah. Sorry. My brain just went in so many different directions at the same time. [Cackles.]

lourdes still: No, exactly! I feel like we only ... this is just one question for now. And I feel like we can stay on this.

ash alberg: For the entire episode. [Laughs.]
lourdes still: Forever, but I'll let you lead the conversation.

ash alberg: Why don't we start with, I guess, the basics. Tell us a bit about who you are and what you do in the world. And like we talked about, obviously I read your bio, but where, like, how did you get to where you are now?

You started off, first of all, you started off in a very different climate and now like here in Manitoba, you started off with I think it was technically a cut flower farm was the initial plan. And then we have a really short growing season here. [Laughs.]

lourdes still: yeah.
ash alberg: It's, cut flowers only last for a certain amount of time.

lourdes still: Yeah, and I was a flower buyer first before I became a flower grower. But yeah, but yeah, I immigrated to Canada in 2009, so it's, I'm going on my 13th year moving here. But doing what I'm doing right now is not in my

plan at all. I didn't even think that I would do, I would be doing what I'm doing right now.

I would say that I didn't take a linear path in my career. But I had a degree in nutrition and dietetics back in the Philippines. So I was a dietician and one of the motivation to move to Canada was to practice my profession here and help family financially, family financially.

But I didn't end up practicing my profession or as a dietician here because I realize just the process on getting certified, getting my credentials, college, I guess there's a lot of steps involved and also the fees that I have to pay as to between the priority of helping family out financially, it was just, it wasn't just viable for me when I moved here.

And also, I, I don't feel so much heartache about not practicing the profession. So I think I just like really embrace what is, what are the opportunities that will come my way. And so that involved in 2012, I got the job as an international purchasing coordinator for a wholesaler.

So the company that I was working with basically buying flowers from all over the world.

ash alberg: Wow.

lourdes still: And yeah, but I was in what I was doing. And then another buyer, the senior buyer, we were buying from South America. These are most of the Columbia, Ecuador are the main importer of like flowers that we do enjoy in North America.

And I think through that job I wasn't, I wasn't talking directly to our end customer here in Manitoba, but I learn of flower farms in Winnipeg or in Manitoba, because what they do is even though they are a flower farm, so they use most of their grown flowers in the summer, but then off season, they do buy imported flowers.

So when I first heard of this flower farm I was like shaking my head ‘cause I was like, how is that possible? Because it just felt, how was that like a business? But then realizing their business model is different. So yeah, it is a year-round business for them, but they do use imported flowers.

Anyway, so I really fell in love with what locally grown flowers are, how they are beneficial for the environment, ecological and then learned of Floret Farm.

So Floret Farm is a flower farm in the States, in Skagit Valley. And she actually, they do training for like small scale flower farmers.

So I, yeah, so I dive in. I think I did a course in winter of 2018 and all the while, so I was a flower buyer 2012 until 2018. I met my boyfriend then who’s my husband now in 2016. So he already had this property before we met. So the first spring, summer we're together, yeah, we were gardening. He had already 20 x 30 garden plots.

Yeah, so we grew some of our vegetables in 2016 and then, and just like with my work as a flower buyer and then learning about Floret and then yeah, it did peak my curiosity to that oh, maybe I could try this in this property, which was property. And then he said, actually, he's the one who said that, did you know that lawns are actually a, it's introduced in North America, so they're very wasteful.

So he was the one who opened that knowledge to me. And then yeah, so we both agree. Yeah. I think we should be turning our lawns into garden beds. So we did that. So from 2016 until last year, a section by section we’re turning our lawns.

And so anyway, so 2018 is when I registered Masagana Flower Farm and Studio and still like doing it part time because yeah, like we have such a short growing season and this is the time when I'm really getting interested on how to be a better gardener in zone three, because prior to that I've been killing plants because of the not knowing about this terminology and last frost date while I was living in this, in, in the city.

But anyways, so 2018 is when I dove into growing cut flowers and then in 2018, we were growing a 1200 square feet. And just like my mind was blown like how much flowers I was getting from this small plot of land. Some, I did sell some, but most of them in the left over filled our house and all sorts of composts. [Ash chuckles.]

Even though I know once I can eventually, maybe the following year or two years, I can put it back into the soil once they fully, decompose. But it just felt like my flowers only had one use and it didn't really sit well with me. And so this is a long answer to your question, but ...

ash alberg: I love it. [Both laugh.]
lourdes still: I feel like I need to give you context.

And so move here 2018, and so the growing season is done. I went back to a desk job but like outside the city now. Oh yeah, and then now I'm trying to like, get to know who are, air quotes, my neighbors are. I love being in the city. I was a city girl in the Philippines and then I am a city girl when I moved to Canada in Winnipeg, and I know my ways around the city. I feel at home, being in the city.

But yeah, but it was a welcome change, living in the country, but I really wanted to know who are around me and that's when I learned of fiber farms, which is Longway Homestead and Ferme Fiola Farm and learned that they cultivate dye gardens for their yarns.

And I was like, again, it's the second time my mind was blown again ‘cause I don't think I had that concept, that I didn't really think about where our colors come from, except from the box of crayon.

ash alberg: Totally.
lourdes still: And what was amazing is, most of these flowers are actually

being grown as a cut flower too.
ash alberg: Yes! Massive overlap.
lourdes still: Yeah. Yeah. Massive overlap.

And so now I have like a trifecta or when I'm deciding every year, what will be a priority in the garden. So they should be either great grown as fresh cut, so for floral arrangements and as a natural dye or a fresh cut and a dry swell that holds their color and shape when dried.

So I think it's very rare that a certain plant can really have those three qualities. Xenia can but also ...

ash alberg: Like some of them were like, I was going to say goldenrod, but I walked past a bunch of it and it’s, the, it's, it very much changes. It's pretty but it’s very different when it's dried.

lourdes still: Yeah. Marigold is really good. I know other ... but you know what, I didn't really think of, I didn’t really think too much of marigold until I know ... I feel I knew that it was a dye flower because I think also most of the flat marigold that I was ... because it's very common, like for pest management.

So you can, I can’t really work with it on a flat floral arrangement, but then I learned that there are just like taller varieties and they dry very well and they dry very well.

They look great on a dry flower arrangement. But I mostly use my marigold in, in dyeing. But yeah, so that's a long history on how I ended up doing what I'm doing.

ash alberg: This is delightful though. This is super cool. So how much property do you guys have?

lourdes still: So it is a five acre property. We are the corner property. One acre is cleared and so the rest are aspen forest.

ash alberg: Okay, cool. So you've got ... so on the one acre is obviously your house, and then you've been slowly turning the rest of that acre into garden beds.

lourdes still: Yeah. So the front yard, I think we’ve turned most of the lawn that we want it to be flowerbeds. So we are at 4,800 square feet. We still have green ... we still have some lawns. Some of it is like our parking area, like in the summer. So the rest were on the side where the garden beds are.

That's the next plan to develop, which will be perennial gardens. Yeah, perennials and native gardens. But I think for the cut flowers and for this natural dyeing, 4,800 square is what we have. I think it's about like a 30, 35 garden beds that are between 20 feet long to 40 feet long.

ash alberg: Amazing.

lourdes still: Yeah.

ash alberg: Just the dream, truly my dream. So do you find at this point with that amount of space that when you're ... ‘cause like when we grow our own dyes, like I dye at a commercial level. So like the amount of dye that I need is a whole other level. But for a normal person, honestly, even what you could grow on a city plot of land would be enough for you to be dyeing with.

But you do run a business and you do sell goods and you also teach classes. So do you find that one year or one growing season’s worth of dye plants on that amount of property gives you enough to carry you through the year until the next harvest?

lourdes still: Yes. Yeah, so I do have a few mason jar ... or we, yeah, we have still have a few mason jar that I haven't ... that yeah, that can carry me over until I can get some fresh flowers again.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And so what happens, what happened too is so we, yeah we were in, so I started dyeing in 2020, so we were in the pandemic and then I really saw this opportunity ‘cause I do love holding workshop, I love showing people like my garden. The agritourism is already, it's a part of a flower farming operation, but I think what I did is I combined those two passion that I have.

The locally grown flowers and in my new, in my new passion about like natural dyeing. And so that's why, so you, in your introduction, it is a new tourism destination in south Manitoba, because that is, did that tourism aspect is what made the business a year-round venture.

ash alberg: Aha, smart!

lourdes still: Yeah, because yeah, if I am only going to be using locally grown flowers, the business is not viable to be a sustainable business. So now with that combination of natural dye is where I was able to favor it. Not only in terms of the pandemic, but also I think to yeah, to evolve the business into a year-round venture.

So with the building, we're building a studio this spring/summer, so that will host the tinta experience and also from our own personal projects. Yeah. And just doing natural dyeing.

ash alberg: That's so cool. And it's so smart. Like it's such a unique thing. I, it shouldn't be that unique, but I don't know anybody else who is like hosting, like growing and hosting workshops specifically. And I just think it's so good for kids that want to come learn, like school experiences.

Honestly, I think people are like, oh, like unique bachelorette party things. I'm like that would sound, that to me is that would be ideal, especially if there's places where ... because people sometimes get cranky about leaving the city. It's not even that far from the city limits. So it would be a very easy like day experience for somebody.

But if they wanted to stay locally, like there, there's just, there's so much potential with it.

lourdes still: Yeah, and also like company, you know, team building or something like that with a small group.

ash alberg: Yes, yes!

lourdes still: Yeah, so that is like that's the plan to offer and just what with the gas prices now, that's what I'm thinking. Like I think I would encourage people to book more of they know each other, so you book the times and then ...

[Both talking at the same time.]

ash alberg: Which also deals with like COVID concerns where you don't have like groups of strangers coming together. It's like you come as a group.

lourdes still: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, and also, I host only like from four to six because I really want to give people like, they would feel safe. And also, I think the advantage of it is being mostly outdoors too, that ... but yeah I know what you mean about, ‘cause it's not an original, it's not but I, it's not original, but I made it personal.

ash alberg: Totally. Yes. Which I think is honestly like the best things with business, right? Like we don't need to reinvent wheels. And I also feel like the things that we love most, we want people to have more access to. It's not this like weird, “I need to be the only person doing the thing.” It's, “Want more people doing the thing, but like the reason I'm doing it is this specific reason.”

lourdes still: Yeah. But to tell you, so I think a year ago, is when a year ago I learned of someone in Indonesia, they call it Bernese Artisans, I think. You know what, they do three day or even longer than three in their property. So there are natural dyer artisans. But I was like, oh, wouldn't it be great to have something like that in Manitoba?

I think just for people to see like how magical plants are, and, but because last year I didn't have any structure in that. I think that was my motivation to write a business plan so that I can, I can scale this like experience so I won't be so dictated about the elements, so even if it's raining, I would have a studio to welcome people in.

But now looking back, I think I was thinking, I probably won't do a three day retreat because even the food that they serve in their, the people, in their guests in this retreat are grown at the farm.

ash alberg: That's so cool. Yeah. There's those bigger scale ... and it's smart to do it with a farm kind of at the core of it, because I often have people being like, oh, are you going to run foraging experiences? And I'm like, I would love to, but honestly, especially with our growing season, but even without that, it's a very small window of the year where we can look at this.

A lot of times when things are in bloom for me to take a group of people through an urban foraging experience, that's a lot of people taking from not very much. And even if you do it outside of the city, then the forage ... it just, it doesn't work as well. And depending on what happened to grow, like you don't know whether or not it's going to be a healthy patch. So it's limited.

Whereas with the farm you have more control over like, how much is on hand. You can still be pointing things out. People can still see what the growing looks like, but you're not as ... you're not interrupting the natural environment in the same kind of a way.

lourdes still: Yeah. Yeah. And like I said I feel like scratching the surface because really what I'm being showing to them are the ones that we can cultivate in our zone. And most of them actually are, we are already growing in our gardens. The marigold for sure.

And also, I get what you mean, because I think as a maker, as an artist, and the one who does the workshops, we know it is so much of ourselves.

ash alberg: Yes.

lourdes still: Right? That we wanted to tailor, we wanted to plan a workshop where we can do the, I dunno, like fluidly in a sense. And I think, yeah, the foraging, even though, since you mentioned that, because I think one of the next thing that I want to do and in my natural dyeing journey is experimenting on the perennial set that is also like around my area.

That once I feel like I'm more like settled and I have a permanent space to do that, then I will definitely, I want to map out, like in our property or in Southeast region, the colors that are coming from goldenrod and the other native plants that is, especially in my area to do it.

I don't know, kind of to do it responsibly too, right, rather than, yeah, just like really looking in and around my air before, before looking, beyond like my space.

Yeah. So yeah so I get what you mean. And yeah so we, I was presented with this opportunity or what I can do in the current context that I was, which is flower farm. And I don't know, just, I think, expanded that agritourism aspect of the operation, which is adding the natural dyeing to it because it's something that I already let grow anyway.

ash alberg: That's so cool. I'm so excited about this. I've also just like in my brain, I'm like, okay. As you're scaling and I'm scaling, like this is going to be great ‘cause I'm just going to casually push some of my work over to you. [Laugh-snorts.]

lourdes still: Yeah. Or I know, I think just like the potential of us as a natural dyer cyclic to serve, like maybe in Manitoba and then even beyond in the neighboring province. ‘Cause I really, I feel like natural dye, I think maybe because of the technology, it was only like through social media really that I was able to discover, through that farm, doing this training and then natural dyeing, and just dye gardens, so there's like a love/hate relationship.

But in terms of yeah, like I would like to connect with people because I can see the potential of the garden, how much it can produce. And that is something that I can plan out.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. lourdes still: Yeah.

ash alberg: And especially where like you are ... like, I have, I am, I have a brown thumb is the word I'm gonna use. Somebody recently filled out a survey and was like, if you can cure a brown thumb, I was like, oh, I always call mine like a gray, but brown makes more sense. [Both chuckle.] It's getting, it's getting a little better.

But honestly, the plants that thrive most for me are like my mugwort and my nettles. And they're just like, they don't need much attention. They thrive on my neglect. So be ... and like on the one hand, yes, I want to learn how to do more. And I do rely quite heavily on my dye plants that overlap with my medicinal plants because they, there's heavy overlap and the medicinal plants are strong little fuckers that do their own ... I don't need to do as much for them.

But being able to give like work or employment or money to people who are skilled in an area where I am not as skilled and that we can both benefit from that, is that is how I dream of scaling.

lourdes still: Yeah, no, and that, and I'm so open to that because yeah, I think, because that is in my radar too, as a new business in my area, because we look at sustainability not in just one aspect, but there's also in the ... I forgot, that there's the people aspect. Yeah. And so in that could entail have yeah, hiring someone, needing someone like actually full-time.

And there is the potential for the business to employ a second person aside from myself, which I think is, a great thing. Yeah. And having a second person on my own operation to delegate that so that I can do more of what I love to be doing which is growing flowers right now and then that tinta experience. And focus on that, my energy on that. And for you, yeah. If that is something that the natural dyeing, or I don't know, or providing you with the flowers, dye flowers that you needed, right?

Yeah.

ash alberg: Yeah. I'm thinking like you have, just grow a whole plot. And then, if certain areas like for me, I don't grow that much. And I don't have space to grow that much. And so I keep my natural or my like local color palette mostly limited to the sock yarns that I develop in here, because also then I don't need to be dying a sweater's worth of yarn.

But if there's the option to dye a sweater’s worth of yarn that's been produced locally, coming from local dyes, then that's extra exciting. It's just like right now, that is not something that I can do sustainably, but that's, like the limit is not because it's not possible, period. It's just because the resources coming together, if I'm doing it all by myself is not feasible. So ...

lourdes still: And also, yeah, I feel that sometimes the limits, I look at it as opportunities to know ... So yeah. And I think I feel like that's how the business had evolved to what it is going to be doing in 2022. But yeah, because I was limited in a short growing season, but then being able to expand, okay, but what can I do in this short season?

It is ... well at the beginning, I saw it as like a hindrance on how to make Masagna Flower Farm a year-round business. But then I think, yeah, when the natural dyeing came into the picture made me realize, oh, maybe I can still run a smaller scale seasonal flower farm, but I have to diversify and include the natural dyes.

ash alberg: Yes. I'm jealous of how much space you have. [Laughs.] I'm always like battling with, I have a tiny Wolseley property and then I need to be growing things, but also Willow needs to be able to run around.

lourdes still: I love Wolseley neighborhood. I, and especially those people who have their boulevard, that tiny space and made it into, to gardens. It's ... and you know what, actually, I should mention this. I, so before my husband told me about lawns are wasteful, and this is what I'm realizing, just in connection, we were talking earlier about our standard in terms of colors.

So my standard on what is like a beautiful lawn, are like those perfectly manicured one. So I used to buy, go into my work in Starbucks, in Madison Square, in Polo Park. And then in the summer I would take my time going home in my downtown apartment. And then I would go, I think, I didn't know what street it is, but I love the color yellow, so I think there was a house in McMillan that I would just really slow down.

But it was the front yard are just full of plants. And I was like, I thought that was like, so unkept and then so finally met my husband and then I went to my sister-in-law's house and it was like the yellow house and it would have the garden in front and so I was telling her, you know what, I think I used to bike here and I would see your house because it was yellow. And it's my favorite color. And in your lawn, your front lawn is so unkempt, but it is a native grass pre-regressed garden.

ash alberg: Yes.
lourdes still: And it’s just like ... so I realized I look at the gardens in very

judgmental.

ash alberg: Yeah. But I think like it's so, it's like normal too though, where we've been trained to think that had a nice lawn is this like perfectly manicured ... I can't remember what, crab grass or something? Like it's like a very specific type of grass that also honestly like ...

lourdes still: Yeah. Yeah. Kentucky ...
ash alberg: Yes. Something ... yes, blue somebody. lourdes still: Blue Kentucky?

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah. And honestly it's ... I have learned that the bit of lawn that I have left because last year I put in a patio on one half is, it's honestly not that good for any actual use on the lawn. If you have kids or dogs, say goodbye to that grass within one season because its roots in our climate are not deep enough and you actually want that mix.

And then the more that I've learned and gotten into, of course, our local botany and realizing how much medicine is growing when you're not like putting pesticides and shit on it and killing the what gets categorized as weeds, but are actually like very useful plants. It's fascinating.

And I thankfully live in Wolseley where the standards are not like the suburbs where you're supposed to have manicured lawns and where people get cranky. Like we've got an area where if you don't mow your lawn all the time, it's okay. But also, people have some really stunning perennial gardens and I walked past some people's yards where they've clearly had their plants growing for many years. They're very established perennials.

And then they'll pop in there, like bits of color with the annuals, but the really well-established perennials, when they're in bloom, it's just, it's so lovely. The pollinators are just all over the place.

lourdes still: Going crazy. ash alberg: It’s amazing.

lourdes still: Yeah. And this is for your listeners. This is not like to bash on anyone who are still like, having their lawns. I think for me, you know, it, because it's my curiosity that helped me change my mindset about it. And yeah, and it could be a lot of work.

It seemed, or it seems like it is a lot of work, like to turn your lawns into garden beds, but actually that's very contradictory, right, because most of our native perennial plants, they are drought tolerant. And once they're established, you don't have to do anything.

ash alberg: Exactly.

lourdes still: So I hope that your listeners will see it that their curiosity will be piqued about this, and because for me, I really believe that I would say it doesn't matter the size.

ash alberg: [Snorts.] You can say that on this podcast, that’s fine. [Both laugh.]

lourdes still: It doesn't matter because you can have container gardening and just like my sister in law, like they need to in this, like this, there's a small like front yard, but then the diversity of not only the native grass, but the pollinators that are present there, not only in the summer, but, but in winter too, all those like birds that stay here, like in winter, like how it is a habitat.

So I hope that they will be, after listening to, they will be able to reimagine their own space too. And I think we're just like in that season. It's never too late to garden.

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah, exactly. And for folks that live in even spot, I think this is one of the things where people have this idea that, and I definitely used to, where because I grew up on three quarters of an acre and my parents had some serious garden beds. They weren't farmers, but I feel like there's this perception that in order to have a good garden or a good harvest that you need so much space and you need so many plants and it's not true.

Even if you've never worked with locally grown, home grown natural dyes before, a single pot, like regular size pot of marigolds or coreopsis dead-headed over the course of one growing season gives you enough to die a garment, or like the coreopsis maybe a pair of socks. Like coreopsis, they shrink quite a bit, but like marigolds dead-headed over an entire summer, they'll give you enough to dye a sweater by the end of it.

We don't need that much and you don't need that much. It's just a matter of understanding, like where do you live? What are the plants that are going to do better in that environment? And what do you need to help them? And working, like we said, we're taking the limitations and working with them and using them as an opportunity rather than being like, oh I can't do it, so I'm just not even gonna try.

lourdes still: Yeah, exactly. And I think, I think to be honest, that has never been my mindset. I guess it's like you, I can say that I never take no for an answer. There is a dimension of the whenever, I just keep on spinning things positively.

I know that there is a downside to the ... and I guess we're just not even like talking about it, just plants anymore, but yeah, but so innate to me to see the positive side of things, to be creative around your limitations.

ash alberg: Yes. I think that's a really good skill set to have. Maybe that's the Sagittarius in me, but I think that's a good thing.

What's been your personal relationship with ritual? We talked about this like a teeny bit before we got started, but your background is definitely more in Catholicism, which is just like full of ritual.

And the like and shifting from one part of the world that has very specific kinds of traditions, moving to a different kind of the world that has different traditions. Also moving from like urban to rural living, that changes the way that we might be doing rituals. What has that been like for you and what has been maybe something that you've carried with you throughout all of these shifts?

lourdes still: Yeah. I feel like asking this question, Ash, is so ... if, I know that in the previous question, we branched out like so much. I know, I can imagine answering this question, we are going to get into this confusion corner, like a corner. [Ash snorts.]

It's going to tangent in so many ways, but I've never asked this question before and I didn't really know how to answer it. But I didn't really know how to answer in a such a straightforward way, so even though I, yeah, so I grew up Catholic. I don't practice the religion anymore, but I think I still believe myself to be a very spiritual person and I see my work in the garden as my way of being a good steward to the resources that was given to me.

But rituals are ... I, it was, my relationship with it is maybe I would say a little bit like complicated because I don't know, growing up with Catholicism, it just felt like there's only like good and bad way of like rituals, which is so interesting because I for sure went to quack doctors. [Ash cackles.] My grandma was, oh my gosh, like we went to ... my parents, my grandma, I brought me to quack doctors a lot, like growing up. And I do remember them.

And I'm so interested in mysticism, but I had also like to police myself because especially when I when I do converted into Christianity, so born-again Christian in my university years, then looking back now it ... I don't want to get into controversy ... [Both laugh.]

But I don't know, I see now looking back, that was really, I felt it was like a judgemental way. And I think that's how I act, I acted around my family too, that I felt like so righteous.

ash alberg: I think that's a really honest thing to say, especially with, I think it's common no matter where you shift. I've definitely, my own spirituality has shifted many times over the years. And there was a chunk of time where I was about as atheist as I was going to get and I think that there's that same level of judgment that can come from that as well.

Like when you go full hog into something, I think it's a natural reaction to feel almost like precious about it, because your grasp on it is maybe a little too tenuous because you haven't had enough experiences that have really tested it. And so the response to that is to become like very aggressively defensive about it and about anybody questioning it, because you're not necessarily totally committed yourself and, but you don't want to admit that.

lourdes still: Yeah, but I'm for sure like in a different place now. And now I'm actually have a deeper appreciation of mysticism. I, as I see it in my Filipino background, cultural background, there are ... and now I'm learning about Filipinos who are like diving into that work so meaning actually really looking at like literature on what this mysticism look for our ancestors.

And I think that is both like healing and also something that I would want to celebrate. I dunno, just accepting that I am, we are such complex human beings that we are allowed to maybe yeah, to change what we believe in. I still believe in the higher power. I still believe in God, but I think how I am practicing my spirituality is so different when I was a teen, when I was in high school, when I was in my twenties and when I was in my early thirties.

And actually now, as I'm talking about this, I feel like I'm meeting my younger self, who was, who love having her dreams interpreted by a psychic, through a radio program. And I would talk to the psychic through a cell phone call. That now I'm yeah, now I'm just imagining myself looking at talking to my younger self, younger, that that's okay. I'm giving her permission to explore that part of her, that curiosity of her.

Oh, that's so crazy ‘cause I'm turning 40 next year. So that would probably like, yeah, like 30 plus years ago, when I was younger. And so now what does that, what does it look like in my practice? I still don't have, I don't have any rituals that I do, but I think I, as ... when I moved to Canada and we only had two seasons in the Philippines, a wet and dry season, and now even though I'm going into my 13th year in, in Canada, I feel like I'm still learning.

I'm learning how to live by the season. I’m learning how nature would lead how I will live my life. How, what does it really, how do I be living my life like

when in winter and then more of hunkering down and letting myself like rest and into spring?

So I think that the ritual is going to come as I continue to live in this four seasons that I experienced in Canada. But definitely it is going somewhere, like I'm listening more to nature. What does nature is telling me right now? Or a lot of introspection, introspective, like how did I, how, what did I think of winter and how was I living my life? Why is there so much resistance for me to like, why am I, why do I hate winter? But now ...

ash alberg: Especially has really sucked, including for those of us that were born here and all of my ancestors also. Like we're all technically from similar climates and it's still, me and all my ancestors are like, this is shit.

lourdes still: I think the way that I, like taking care of myself. Yeah, being open to like how nature is leading me, how to take care of myself based on that changing season. Aside from that, I used to read a lot of like horoscopes. But then I had to stop at some point because when the horoscope is so bad, I think I internalize it so much.

ash alberg: Yeah. I understand that. [Laughs.] [Both talking at the same time.]

lourdes still: Yeeah. But I'm, but lately, not even a year ago I think, I got this Oracle deck cards and I was so intimidated to it because I think, with my religious background, the bad spirit, like evil spirits, like you never know what's around it.

But now I think I was just like open to it. It's not ... I do some of my readings. I did one, like one of my ... I think so usually I would practice using just like drawing like one card every day or every other day. But for my birthday this year, I did the Oracle cards that I got. It has like book instructions on how you can do different readings.

So I did one, I don't know, expansive like reading like a month ago and it was beautiful. It's just gives you and it become, it became like my journal prompt too. And it was a way how I can bridge my past self into my present self. And then also it has something to do, like what my hopes and dreams for my future self. These are guides.

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah.

lourdes still: I find. They don't dictate my life at all, but I think with the knowledge that I have know about myself and also the world around me. Yeah, it was just really beautiful to get into those like little rituals, but that's the extent of how ritual is in my life now.

ash alberg: I feel like that's a lot of rituals though.

lourdes still: Yeah, is it? [Giggles.]

ash alberg: Yeah, definitely. Also yeah, I think there's also that thing of trusting that not everything is going to end up absolutely terrible. Like that ... not ... for example, I have never touched a Ouija board. I never planned to touch and Ouija board. I'd like, like that feels like you're just playing with shit that is ... doesn't need to ... it's hey, if there's any aswangs like in the area, that's what they're going to come to. Just avoid that.

lourdes still: Yes, I forgot that term. Aswang culture, aswang is like so embedded in our culture, there were like --

ash alberg: I think it’s really interesting in terms of like, it has nothing to do with Catholicism and Catholicism has been in the Philippines for like hundreds of years in the same way that it's been in so many other places. But that is a thing that has maintained itself within the like folklore, despite Catholicism being like, “These things aren't true. These things are bad. We're just gonna ignore them.”

But people are like, okay, sure. Yeah. But also we're just going to make sure we don't accidentally make these things mad.

lourdes still: You were, you’re making me remember a lot. And the superstitions, the superstition is so embedded in our culture.

ash alberg: I’d be so curious to ... because I, yeah, I feel every time I've heard anything folklore-wise from Filipino folklore, it's like evil spirits, like the Brothers Grimm fairytales that we have for European. It's like, when you look at like the original stories, they're suuuper creepy and like they're used as almost like warning stories to keep people and especially children in check.

But then like when you look at, if you dig in a little bit further then yeah, you've got the vampire ... it's a different word, but Slavic traditions, for example, like you've got like the equivalent of the vampire, which I can't remember what the word is that we use, but it's not vampire.

And then you've got like the equivalent of like mermaids and sirens that are like trying to drown you in the river. But then you also have your house spirits and you just, you're in relationship with your house spirits. And as long as you're in good relationship with them, then they help you out and their job is to be like protecting the house.

And so if you're not caring for the house, then they're gonna, they're going to smack you. But like it's because you're not doing your job in being a good steward and in supporting them in helping the house. So ...

lourdes still: Yeah. So it's definitely colorful. It is. Yeah, I think most of my life, like I avoided them, but then, but now I'm much older.

I think I was able to look at it more subjective and/or being okay with asking, like why was I afraid of? Why did my grandparents like said this things? And with the materials available to us now just also just realizing how, because the Philippines is at 7,000 hundred plus islands that different region, different places in the Philippines, like maybe one aswang creature is interpreted differently in other regions.

Yeah. So this topic, I've never really talked to someone about this at all. Like this natural dyeing and then aswang, like what podcast is this? [Giggles.]

ash alberg: [Snorts and cackles.] In the middle of ... I was going to say the middle of winter. Technically it's not, technically we're recording this in what should be the beginning of spring, but it's Manitoba. So really still cold.

lourdes still: Yeah. No, but I appreciate it. And I appreciate like having this conversation ‘cause it just, I don't know, somehow like it makes me appreciate like where I'm originally from, and trying to make an effort or educating myself, and not looking at it as like categorizing them as like bad or good things, but then just like what makes me, as a Filipino immigrant ... I don't know, my personality becomes just more richer with all this layers that was yeah, layers in me, and I'm bringing to like where my home is now.

I don't know. So yeah, so I'm open to have that conversation, but I don't think that I've had this, I don't think I've ever had this conversation with anyone else. Yeah, I don't think so.

ash alberg: Hmm. [Happily]. We're just going to have to keep on having it. I'm just going to be like, have you heard of this book? What do you think? Tell me all your thoughts.

lourdes still: So this last December I did get a, that solstice box from another Winnpeg maker like Jody, and we were able ... so when I was speaking about, we were able to chat a little bit.

And I think the reason why I grabbed that box from her was because I wanted to find rituals again in my life. So we were having conversations because my life actually used to have this full of rituals, but then I moved to Canada and I didn't pay so much attention to that anymore because I think just in terms of like climate and setting or we don't have the same rhythm of life as I did in the Philippines.

But having that kind the solstice, the solstice box that were meant to just honor the dark, just acknowledging really more cognizant of this is a change of season and how should I be living this season differently? Because I had a lot of pushback, especially this last two or three winters after I had a road accident in winter, so that, I think that really made me not like winter because our winter driving is difficult.

But then he was also very tiring to resist. So this year I realized, what, how, what would happen if I embrace this darkness that is, that was like winter brings us? That helped me to reframe my mind on how I'm going to live winter differently.

ash alberg: Cool. So what I feel like that is this kind of a nice little segue into ... ‘cause we've talked about business a lot, but what do you wish you'd been told about ritual or magic or all of these traditions when you were younger?

lourdes still: Oh, that's so fun-- funny in a way, because I think we try to avoid it, but then our lives were actually full of rituals.

It could be, somehow, it could act like a compass on how we should be honouring ... Like I was, it was going to laugh saying summer season when now it just feels like the whole year there's like a summer season.

ash alberg: But I feel like it's probably, you said like wet and dry, like there's, there would be some differences, they would just be maybe more subtle or like less extreme, but ... or extreme in different ways maybe.

lourdes still: Yeah. Or I think the other ... I wish that I was taught that other people's ritual are not good or bad if they're different to what my family’s rituals are.

ash alberg: Yeeah. Yup. Yup.

lourdes still: Right? Because definitely there are still like pagan communities back in the Philippines. And I think the Christian community turned their back on them because Christians only see one way.

ash alberg: Yes.
lourdes still: And ... and this is me speaking. This is, this was my life too, that

you, there's only one way to live or to live your belief system.

But then how ... I don't think I was taught like how to relate to other people who has a different set of belief system. Yeah, that I, and it's not, I'm not saying ... because I feel like my elders too were only taught by their elders who just also know ... they were just trained this way.

So I hope that my generation, I would frame it more different, differently, to my nephew and nieces.

ash alberg: Yeah.
lourdes still: Yeah, I think that's the main thing. I hope that I wasn’t told that

only the, a good set of rituals or belief, that it only looked like one way. ash alberg: Mhmm. Yeah.

lourdes still: If we may not believe in other people's way of doing their rituals, but it doesn't mean that it's wrong because they have their own like history on why they're doing what they're doing.

ash alberg: Mhm. That's yeah, I feel like we could all, we could all use a reminder that on the regular.

lourdes still: And I think for how I can, and we're seeing that now, like in North America, right? Like we are trying to be, to do this reconciliation with our Indigenous community here. And I think that is very similar to the Philippines except for the reconciliation part.

We've set aside our ancestors, the minorities in our country that, because they're living differently, probably they're so more in tune like with nature. And they're letting, the way that they're letting nature leads their lives, it's so different from

people that, from the city dwellers. That you know, that I hope there will be more people in my generation that would honor them, that, that's to not seclude them in society because, yeah.

ash alberg: Yeah. That's a really lovely answer. What is ... let's maybe backtrack a little bit, ‘cause now that we've talked about this, now I will, I, my brain was like, oh, what are some rituals that are like becoming part of how you're running the business? And maybe it's not specifically like a magical ritual, but maybe it's, I feel like just the nature of your work feels very ritualized in the way that it naturally has to follow the seasons.

lourdes still: Because I, like I said, that this is something that I've just started to become open again in my life. I think so that I can live fully in every season. I love that idea of having that ritual, go to in the turn of the season.

Yeah. You know what, since I just really starting to be open about what those rituals are going to look like in my life and I can see that I'm doing that more on the transition of our season. So what I did like last winter, just like having like more bad, especially in the cold nights that we do and just going more like more inward, that so this is very new to me too. And now that I'm becoming more open to ... what will it [indecipherable]? I don't know an answer.

ash alberg: I think that's okay too, though. [Giggles.]

lourdes still: Yeah. There's quirky, quirky Filipino tradition. And not so much ‘cause I'm still fairly new business owner and like I said earlier, I started to become open with this, with rituals in my life, but I know last, most of our ritual also involves food a lot.

So for example at the turn of the year, or on New Year's Eve, the food that we will serve, we need to get 12 different kinds of like round food, because it symbolizes ... round it's apparently like means fortune, like I think, and this is funny because our Chinese influence.

And then the cuisines are the food that we will serve are made of sticky rice which symbolizes the family sticking together. So those for sure, like I've that is one of my motivations aside from, I'm making my grandma's favorite recipe of, it's called arroz in China, so it's made of like sticky rice. It's like paella.

ash alberg: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

lourdes still: Yeah. But my grandma's recipe [name of dish?] is actually, the sticky rice was soaked in turmeric overnight. So every time I made that, oh, it's felt just, it was very, it will bring me back to the time that I would make this, like this dish with her. It reminds me so much of her.

And then the other thing, which yeah, I think this one will happen like in the summer. So whenever we have a family member who has like new house, they will do like a house blessing. And so there will be like a priest coming and then there’s like a holy water that they will splash around us in every room.

So I think when I ... and also the house owner will throw coins at, I think, at the entrance and then the guests, family and relatives will fight for those coins.

ash alberg: That is hilarious. I like that there's a fight involved. [Both laugh, Ash snorts.]

lourdes still: And so, and so now I feel like, oh, I really, I want to do that once I have my studio. I don't think I will have a priest, but I think more like a space dedication. I have a friend who is it was a spiritual director and so I think I’m gonna invite her.

Yeah, let's just do this. It's a twist of how we do it back in the Philippines, but I think there was so --

ash alberg: There'll be a fight. That's my question. lourdes still: Yeah. You know what? Yes.

Because most of ... ‘cause my fam-- my married family, like you probably what, what the heck is this? [Ash laugh-snorts.] So there, there will be a lot of explanation on what will happen so that it's not a complete surprise on what they're getting themselves into.

But those are the things that I think because my, my circle these past few years have been mostly, a lot of them are Canadians, white skin versus I still have a lot of Filipino friends, but I think, yeah, now that I'm married to the white person, that I'm trying to sprinkle our lives with that, because he appreciate that too.

And it's a way of him like getting to know to know me and I think that helps. I think it, cause we, we were able to visit back home just before the pandemic. Yeah, and I'm glad that we went. And so now I think with that recent visit I got

like in tune more of who I was in terms of what did my life look like before moving to Canada, that now whenever I remember some ritual things that we used to do back home, I try to be more aware of what's like happening for me in the future where I would have this opportunity to sprinkle those rituals, even some superstitions, in my life before, where I can sprinkle it now.

And it's mostly like to really honor my heritage.
ash alberg: Yeah, absolutely.
lourdes still: Keep that a little bit like alive in my life.

ash alberg: Yes. I feel like that's especially important when ... like in general, it's important to try and keep those traditions alive, but especially when you're an immigrant, like wherever you've moved from and then to, like to maintain those things that remind you of yeah, you have a new home, but also like old home too.

Those things are important.

lourdes still: Yeah. Oh, one of the things that I realized when I started gardening outside the container gardening that I was using, doing in my balcony apartment. Getting to know the land here, working in our garden that’s in our lot, I felt like Canada was a ... it started feeling like a second home when I started gardening.

ash alberg: That makes sense.

lourdes still: Because yeah, it has like metaphorically, because you know, I was getting to know a new person and also moving here. I'm getting to know like my area that yeah. And in a way you're getting to know, I'm getting to know Canada and Manitoba, our land, in the context of like gardening.

What does die down? What does go into dormancy in the fall? And then what comes up native in my area, which are the ones that we call weed, but at the same time, really looking at the history of this plants, the ethnobotany of them, like how they are used by the original people that living in Canada.

Yeah. And yeah, so now in my immigrant story, bridging those two homes, right? What are still practices that I so love about my culture and the religion that I grew up in? But at the same time embracing who I am now. So this is, we were talking right now and you being the first person to ask this question to m.

Now, I feel like I'm going to be more paying more attention to this, ‘cause I think it just that you will just make my life richer.

Yeah, because I don't know. I like living my life with meaning and maybe this is, this is how, this is the meaning to me, finding those where I can bridge my old self to the new person that I am now to this ritual, with that.

But by the ... and it facilitated by rituals. ash alberg: Lovely.

lourdes still: So I feel like the other ritual too, is I started implementing in my life and it actually really involved one of the things that I'll be offering this summer, which is the tinta experience and it's a three hour engagement at the farm and we were talking earlier like where I was inspired to do this tinta experience.

People who was living in Indonesia for two days, three days, I was able to boil it down to three hours. But I think one, the ritual that I'm starting in here too, is I really want people to drop their worries, whatever that they have brought out with them driving from the city over every day from and into the gardens. There's somehow cleansing a little bit too.

We'll start, we're actually going to be doing the kind of like sharing circle and a grounding exercise.

ash alberg: Cool!

lourdes still: So that, yeah, so it's very, short, but in this part of the ... and I did it like last year too. I think just getting to know them and just allowing them, giving themselves permission to what our cares and worries are still gonna be there but for the next three hours here at the farm, drop them.

You have the permission to forget them for just like the next three hours and just be open to that right? And with one of the really great things that I have feedback that I'm getting from people is that two of them actually had said, driving to, to my place here, just all feeling this like flustered and feeling like heavy, and then as I'm walking them to their car, because our time has ended for this tinta experience, they just felt like lighter.

And that is where I was coming from when I was crafting this experience because I feel like the garden, I have this opportunity to welcome people in this

space so that they can be connected with nature again. So I think the ritual in there is that, yeah, that maybe it would be the first time for them and when they go back to their own places, maybe they have a garden or not have a garden, that they will look back at their experience and make those like little rituals in their lives that involves the plants around them.

ash alberg: Yes.

lourdes still: Yeah. I think I was trying to find an answer elsewhere when rituals with plants is where my answers should be. Where I should be looking for my answer.

ash alberg: Yeah. Ah! This is delightful.

So this episode is going to come out probably in early May, I'm thinking, so what's next for you? Right now, while we're recording, we're covered under snow, but hopefully by May, things are starting to go in the ground.

lourdes still: I'm really looking forward to this new growing season. Like I mentioned earlier I will finally have a structure where I can really welcome people in and just to elevate this experience with plant magic, through natural dyes, and to show to people, to share with people, how I'm growing my joy, like through flowers.

So I'm really looking forward to booking for that event again. And yeah, and yeah, welcoming either strangers filling up like this time spot or people who are not, some of them may be not comfortable with traveling outside Manitoba and/or just like really wanted to know what is, what are happening in the Manitoba.

So I'm really excited to be able to provide Manitobans with a new experience and, yeah, I'm excited for that.

ash alberg: This is so exciting. I definitely need to make my way out to the farm at some point this summer ‘cause that just, all of that sounds so good.

Well this has been absolutely delightful. Thank you for chatting with me. This has been just so much fun.

lourdes still: Yeaah. Thanks for having me. This is definitely one for the books for me. Because just the way, where you have guided this conversation in places that I didn't think I'll be talking in a podcast.

ash alberg: [Cackles and snorts.] There we go. lourdes still: [Laughs.] So thank you.

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] You can find full episode recordings and transcripts at snortandcackle.com. Just click on podcast in the main menu. Follow Snort and Cackle on Instagram @snortandcackle and join our seasonal book club with @SnortandCackleBookClub. Don't forget to subscribe and review the podcast by your favorite podcasting platform.

Editing provided by Noah Gilroy, recording and mixing by Ash Alberg, music by Yesable.