season 2, episode 13 - #snortandcacklebookclub book review - "orishas, goddesses, & voodoo queens"

season 2 of snort & cackle is coming to an end, which means it's time for the #snortandcacklebookclub book review! today ash is joined by their friend mandipa for the first half of the episode and by winifred tannata of awentree for the second half as we go over "orishas, goddesses, & voodoo queens" by lilith dorsey. we'll be back with season 3 next week after imbolc!

you can join ash for a very special live round of the #creativecovenchallenge from february 21-25! sign-ups can be found at ashalberg.com/live-challenge-sign-up. you can also find the challenge and work through it at your own pace 24/7 within the creative coven community.

take the fibre witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz. follow us on instagram @snortandcackle and be sure to subscribe via your favourite podcasting app so you don't miss an episode!

seasons 1-3 of snort & cackle are generously supported by the manitoba arts council.

transcript

snort & cackle - season 2, episode 13 - book review - "orishas, goddesses, & voodoo queens" by lilith dorsey

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays in background.] Hello, and welcome to the snort and cackle podcast. I'm your host Ash Alberg. I'm a queer fibre witch and hedge witch, and each week I interview a fellow boss witch to discuss how everyday magic helps them make their life and the wider world, a better place.

Expect serious discussions about intersections of privilege and oppression, big C versus small C capitalism, rituals, sustainability, astrology, ancestral work, and a whole lot of snorts and cackles. Each season, we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #SnortAndCackleBookClub with a book review by me and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. Our book this season is Orishas, Goddesses, and Voodoo Queens by Lilith Dorsey.

Whether you're an aspiring boss witch looking to start your knitwear design business, a plant witch looking to play more with your local naturally dyed color palette, or a knit witch wondering just what the hell is a natural yarn and how do you use it in your favorite patterns? We've got the solution for you.

Take the free fiber witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz and find out which self-paced online program will help you take your dreams into reality. [Music fades out.] Visit ashalberg.com/quiz and then join fellow fiber witches in the creative coven community at ashalberg.com/creative-coven-community for 24/7 access to Ash’s favorite resources, monthly zoom knit nights, and more.

This is the first half of our book review episode for season two of Snort and Cackle, and in the second half I am joined by Winifred, who some of you may remember from our interview in season one because she is actually a member of an Orisha house, and I'm probably saying those words wrong but that is why Winifred is coming on to chat.

But for this first half of the episode, I am joined by my friend, Mandipa, and we're gonna chat about the book with y'all. And the book is Goddesses and Voodoo Queens: The Divine Feminine and the African Religious Traditions by Lilith Dorsey.

Hi Mandipa.

mandipa: Hi, thanks for having me!

ash alberg: Thanks for joining me! So, we both read the book and can you ... I have literally no experience with any of the practices that are listed in the book. I’m also like very European/ Northern hemisphere in my ancestry, so do you have any experience ... or I would say that before reading the book, my understanding of pretty much any of what was laid out in it was like, popular culture renditions of voodoo, which are ... highly questionable. [Both laugh.]

And I think I've heard of, not in very much detail, but like the Orisha Oshun because of working with indigo, and so I've been exposed a little bit to how indigo, when it is used in West Africa, has some traditions or some kind of practices that are related to Oshun because of the interaction with water, but that's it on my end.

mandipa: So, I think for me I started a spiritual journey and like really taking that a lot more seriously about two or three years ago, and so I started at first with the big, main religions because I was raised in a Muslim family. So I started there and tried to understand those for myself.

Then a little bit about Christianity, Judaism, and then I was like, hey, I want something more, and I started exploring, I guess like Eastern, like East Asian religions or schools of thought. Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, but those are the ones that I guess when you type it into Google or whatever, those are the things that pop up.

I was starting to feel like, where's the representation for me? Because yes, I am a Black woman, both my parents are African, and my father is West African. My mother is Southern African, and yeah, I wasn't seeing that just come up in the suggested Google recommendations. I had to dig a lot deeper to find anything that had to do with traditional religions or spiritualities for my people.

So, it's been a journey, it’s been a struggle to find good resources to learn about that. So some of the things, you brought up a good point that like voodoo, we see that a lot in Hollywood TV shows. I'm thinking of the original spin off of The Vampire Diaries. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: I've also been re-bingeing Bones for sure an episode there. [Mandipa chuckles]. And then also I feel like The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina is like, potentially starts to maybe get the closest to semi-reasonable,

but then I'm also, like they say Sam-hane instead of Sow-wen. [Mandipa laughs.] So, I'm like already questioning, how deep of a dive in your research did you actually do?

So, I don't, I also don't know how much I can actually trust that as being even slightly close.

mandipa: Like on one hand I'm like, okay, cool. Yes, some representation, but on the other it’s like, but is that representation like harmful or helpful? So, I took all that with a grain of salt, kept doing some more of my own research, and there's lots in this book first of all. Lots of different ideas for rituals, altars, shrines and I really enjoyed learning through this book. Some things I had heard about and some were new to me.

So yeah, I think it's a really good place to start if somebody wants to learn more because the introduction here really talks about the history of it, how the author, Lilith Dorsey, did her research, compiled to the information. And yeah, like the history of how these religions and these spiritualities came from Africa, traveled along with the enslaved Africans to the “New World”, through the Caribbean, Latin America and then how they combined those or hid them under Christianity.

ash alberg: Yes! Which is super fucking common across ... like Catholicism? I just am like, literally every witchcraft tradition, just like Catholicism, I'm just like, y'all aren't even trying to pretend. [Mandipa giggles.] Which is fascinating in and of itself, just in terms of how ... which also then, I mean, Christianity in general is like, what the fuck? [Mandipa chuckles.]

But the way that the fighting happens between ... it’s like, you're not worshiping in the right way to this exact same fucking god that we are worshiping. Therefore, we're going to kill you. And so literally throughout history and throughout its history at least, which like also happens with all of the monotheistic religions.

But I always find it really interesting how Catholicism has this really intense history of, regardless of where it decides to set its roots, trying to violently take over whatever the original practices are and then also simultaneously being basically the exact same fucking thing in terms of like how heavy the ritual is, how intense the expectation is in terms of how you show up and then the reliance on not having just plain speak, which I find is extremely interesting.

But then also every other version of Christianity ends up fighting against the Catholics because it is too ritualized. And so, it's too close to that other, and yet Catholicism is, “But we're not the other.” It's the same fucking thing.

mandipa: Like those are some really impressive mental gymnastics when you think about it. [Ash cackles] Like how do you go ahead and ingest the blood and the bone of the person that's your ... and then you turn around and you look at witches or pagans or voodoo Queens, or you're just like, no, what you guys are doing is just so wrong? [Ash snorts.] Oh my god. Worshiping the devil.

ash alberg: It’s also like, what devil? Like you're talking about the wrong thing!

mandipa: Yeah. This book was really, it was a really interesting read. Yeah, and I think there was a lot in there. You can tell she did her research and put a lot of thought and care into how she shared this information, and yeah. I really enjoyed it. Thank you for recommending it.

ash alberg: Yeah. So ... Sorry, my brain just decided to go a little sideways. [Mandipa laughs.] Would you say that you understand more now as a result of reading the book? Would you say that you have more questions than you did before, and do you have more questions in a good way? Do you have more questions in a frustrating way? Do you feel like you have an idea of where you would go next if you wanted to go next? Do you want to go anywhere next?

mandipa: I definitely want to go next. I love history, first of all. So ... for me, I feel like I really like this because it gives a contemporary... it gives like a, yeah, like how you can practice this today. I would love to learn more about how it was practiced then. I'm just so curious as to what it actually looked like, pre-colonization, before Europe even touched the continent of Africa, what did it look like?

ash alberg: Which like actually means a bunch of these particular traditions in the book don't exist at that point, right? Like the roots of them.

mandipa: Exactly, because that's what she talks about in here is how these things have shifted and changed over time. They've mixed with the Indigenous practices of the people who were already here in North America, despite them calling it the “New World,” people were already here in North America, in Mexico, so they mixed with theirs, right?

Like we talked about they kind of had to hide it underneath Christianity. So, I'm curious now. She did a good job of giving a basic kind of background

information, but I'd love to learn more about pre-Europe. The problem is a lot of, especially in west Africa, a lot of the history is passed down orally and that's even, when I talk to my grandmother and stuff, that's still how she remembers her information. She can list her family members back eight or nine generations.

ash alberg: But it's also like, okay, we need to write the shit down.
mandipa: Exactly, because she's not literate. She never learned how to read and

write.

ash alberg: That’s fucking wild. To like, have a brain that is clearly so tuned to detail and memorizing things and then also to not be able to read and write.

mandipa: So, I don't know if that information is out there about what it really would have been like on the first level sources.

ash alberg: Yeah, yeah.

mandipa: So yeah, I have more questions and it makes me more excited, and that's a good thing, right? Like not in a frustrating way, but not like, okay. I want to keep looking. I want to find out more.

ash alberg: Cool. Yeah, it is really interesting because it is very much written from ... which makes sense, Lilith is an American and it's written from a Turtle Island perspective. Many of the traditions that are being written about are these living traditions that have been developed and grown here, and by here, I mean the Americas, the Turtle Island. I had heard a few terms for South America and I don't remember any of them, which is not useful. [Mandipa laughs.]

So, my apologies for that, but yeah. There’s some touching on their roots in Africa, and specifically West Africa. Like I think that's also something that we need to point out is that the book talks about how these grew out of the slave trade coming from Africa, but it is specifically West Africa.

Like when we were talking about the slave trade that fed here in North America, that was from the West side of the continent. The East side of the continent also experienced that with colonialism and also with its own slave trade, but it happened going elsewhere. They went to Europe and not to the Americas necessarily.

mandipa: Yeah.

ash alberg: So I think that's also something that like, from our Turtle Island perspective, often gets forgotten and/or just flattened.

mandipa: Yeah and it's also from my perspective, Africa's just seen as a monolith.

ash alberg: I was gonna say that! [Both laugh.] A hundred percent.

Especially white people, but also just generally new children that grow up in Canada and the States. I'm going to speak for Canada and the States because everywhere else in North America is different, but Canada and the States in particular, kids in school, like you're taught the contents, but you're not necessarily taught the specifics about what each continent actually looks like. And of course, colonialism.

So, Europe, we get a lot more of their content, we get a lot more of their history being written into our own history books.

mandipa: And we get a lot more of Europe of breaking up Europe into different ...

ash alberg: Exactly, different segments. We're going to talk about these nuances and then World War II, for example, hit Africa and hit Asia in just as devastating ways as it hit Europe. But when here, in North America, when we are learning about World War II, honestly, we're not even learning about our own fucking internment camps. [Mandipa chuckles.] But like you hear about Pearl Harbour in the States, and then you hear about the Holocaust, and primarily the Jewish Holocaust in Europe. Both of those were also horrific but it went much wider than that.

mandipa: Yeah, that's only a small part of the story.
ash alberg: Exactly, and all of the story is completely fucked up. [Both laugh.] mandipa: All of it is garbage!

ash alberg: We don't hear about how, during World War II, Japan invaded the Philippines and was doing similar shit to what the German Nazis were doing in Central Europe and Eastern Europe.

We don't hear about how the war spread into North Africa and its side effect of white supremacy and colonialism, and also just like the number of times that

people are like, Africa as a country [jokingly] and I'm like, oh my god! [Ash laughs.]

mandipa: I actually have a pair of earrings that is just the outline of the continent of Africa, and it says, “That is not a country.” [Both laugh, Ash laugh-snorts.]

ash alberg: That’s amazing.

mandipa: As soon as I saw them, I knew I had to have them, and they always start a conversation. [Ash chuckles.] Unfortunately, I've had people be like, oh, it's not a country? Then what is it?

ash alberg: Oh my god!
mandipa: Yeah! And I've had to say, no, it's a continent. ash alberg: For fuck’s sake.

mandipa: There's over 50 countries, right. So that's the thing, Africa is large and each region ... and I say region because the Europeans came in and drew some arbitrary lines that don't really mean anything to us actually.

ash alberg: Yeah, yeah.

mandipa: So each region has really different culture, language, societal norms. And yes, this is very much written from that Turtle Island perspective. This woman is a Black American, descendant of enslaved Africans.

First of all, I love seeing Black Americans trying to reconnect to their African culture ... or heritage, I should say. Find out where their ancestors came from, learn more about the culture, travel back there, I love to see it because I can't imagine that not knowing.

ash alberg: Yeaaaah! Yeah.

mandipa: That disconnect of not having, not feeling like you have roots. But it is a very different context than what I'm used to because I'm first-generation, my parents were born and raised on the continent and then they came here for higher education.

I love it and I respect it and she did excellent research and there's lots to learn from this book, but that's why I have more questions now. I'm curious about, what did my grandmother, great-grandmothers practice?

ash alberg: Yes!

mandipa: Which gods or goddesses were they were worshipping? How did they practice? Were they performing ritual similar to this? Did they have altars? Were they cleansing? How did they cleanse? What foods were they eating? How did they adorn their bodies? What tattoos or makeup or jewelry or scents? Yeah, I have lots of questions. [Mandipa giggles.]

ash alberg: Yeah, and it’s such an interesting one too because again, colonialism has been around for many generations now, and so they may not even have those practices, especially the way that Christianity and Islam have taken over, it covers up what the traditions were, but not necessarily in a way where they completely disappear.

It's like how ... I feel like my Polish side of the family is ... well, my grandma was a little bit more open to the weird shit that we do. [Mandipa chuckles.] I don't know that my family and kokov would necessarily be down for chatting, but also there is more acknowledgement of ghosts and things because there's ghosts fucking everywhere, you can't avoid them there.

With the other side of my family, very Scottish and British Isles. Many generations back, very just Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. So, Anglican, some sort of “Christian-lite” version-ish. [Mandipa chuckles.] Like there's no fucking way that my nan would ever acknowledge or would even know whether or not a family member, somewhere down the line, had any sort of particular witchcraft practices.

She also was somebody who, if you met her on the stairs, she would turn around and walk back up the stairs, ‘cause you're not supposed to meet somebody on the stairs or she would toss salt over her shoulder. Or you would know you don't watch a funeral procession go out of sight.

Those superstitions that are actually very much rooted in the old magic, but they have been removed for so long, or been smoothed over by Christianity for so long ... Christianity in this particular case. But like any of the dominant religions where they've been smoothed over for so long that we don't know why, we just do.

Like at a funeral we wear this color. Why? I don't know. We just do. And it's, okay. Or like you lay out certain foods, right? Like we don't know why we just do.

So, I wonder how much of that would be part of it too because I find that's one of the tricky things these days. As we are trying to make these like ancestral connections back, and speaking to, especially when there are still family members that live on whatever the ancestral lands are, and so have ties, especially to that culture and that language, that then when you ask them those questions, they don't necessarily know the answer.

mandipa: No, and that's very true, and that is the kind of heartbreaking facts, right? Some of these things unfortunately might just be lost. We can do what we can to recover. I talked to ... I have a very large family on my father's side. So there's lots of people to ask, but on my father's side ... So my father's part of the Fulani ethnic group.

They've been Muslim since the beginning of time, like it goes really far back. [Ash laughs.] But I would be curious to see what they call Islam, and what, people in Saudi Arabia, or somewhere in the middle east call Islam. Like the differences, the subtle differences that might be there that could hint to ...

ash alberg: Yes.
mandipa: Like an older practice, an older spiritual something that we don't

really know why we do it, we just do it. ash alberg: Yeah.

mandipa: There's historians who are better than me, who could probably find some of that stuff out and I just have to keep looking. I am going to keep digging and I'm grateful that growing up, my family, we traveled back home. So, I've been back to the continent several times and being able to be there and talk to different people. Sometimes my cousins have to translate for me ‘cause my grandmother doesn't speak French very well.

She has to be translated to, but I can ask her questions and find out, 'cause I know that there's some things that they believe in, right? Like they believe in jinn.

ash alberg: Yes! Yeah, yeah, yeah!

mandipa: Which is like, that is a very big thing. My father said that we have ...

ash alberg: Oh, that’s interesting. So, that already to me is like okay, there's clearly some very heavily held, centrally held, magical beliefs. That's a good indication.

mandipa: Absolutely.
ash alberg: Also the jinn are fucking terrifying, don’t piss them off.

mandipa: I know! [Ash laughs.] My father told me that, like he's talked about this for a long time and as a kid, I was just like, I don't even know what that means. Like okay, dad, whatever.

But then as I started getting older and doing my own learning and exploring my own spirituality. I was like excuse me, what! [Ash laugh-wheezes.] So, I think he and I need to have another conversation. He's actually back home right now, he's just spending some time with my grandmother, escaping this Canadian cold. [Ash guffaws.]

ash alberg: That's correct. It is -35 when we are recording this and this is actually not even that cold, although I was in the car yesterday and they were like, the wind chill tonight will be -42, tomorrow it will be -44, and I was like, fuck this shit. [Ash snorts.]

mandipa: So I'm not leaving my house. But yeah, my father did the smart thing and he's now in the sun and I spoke to him and he was like, it's so nice. The weather's perfect. During the day it's like 23, 24.

ash alberg: That’s actually perfect.
mandipa: At night it’s like 18 degrees, I was like ... ash alberg: That's literally perfect.
mandipa: I was like, fuck you! [Laughs.] I’m so mad. ash alberg: Ruuuude!

mandipa: So yeah, I need to ask him about this whole jinn thing, because he says that there were jinn in our family. So now I have some questions.

So that's my dad's side, there's definitely some of that was old magic in there. On my mom's side ... So, my mom is from Zimbabwe, so they probably would not have been feeding into the slave trade ‘cause they're landlocked, they’re right above South Africa, geographically speaking. So, with them, well they were still colonized because ... [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: The whole fucking continent was colonized. [Chuckles.] mandipa: Yeah. My mom has talked about ... they definitely believe in

witches.
ash alberg: In a good way or a bad way? ‘Cause there's also that.

mandipa: I think in a more bad way, I think witches are more bad in their context because she was saying something like, if you wake up and you have a bruise that you can't remember or something?

ash alberg: Happens all the time. [Chuckles.]

mandipa: Yeah, or if you wake up more tired than when you went to sleep, it means a witch came to your room in the middle of the night, turned you into a hyena, and used you, like rode you, like used you to transport. ‘Cause witches don't use broomsticks over there.

ash alberg: I love that you become a hyena!
mandipa: Yes! Which is ... because hyenas are not a fun ...
ash alberg: No, they’re not!
mandipa: Exactly! [Ash cackles.]
ash alberg: And like also, as a familiar, a hyena a hundred percent makes sense. mandipa: Right? For a witch, right?
ash alberg: Yes!

mandipa: So that's one of the things that I've heard is, like if you wake up and you have a scratch or a bruise or a bump or something ...

ash alberg: This is fascinating!
mandipa: It's because a witch woke you, or used you in the night. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Oh my god. That's so interesting. Also it’s entirely different from ... So I don't know if you know the Akata Witch book series?

mandipa: I do, I love that series!
ash alberg: It’s referred to as the Nigerian Harry Potter. mandipa: It sure is! [Laughs.]

ash alberg: It’s very accurate, that’s actually a great way of describing it because you deal with these like young children who end up discovering that they have these really intense powers.

On the one hand I'm like, oh yeah, totally. A hyena totally fits into this, like shape-shifting and all this sort of stuff, dreamwork. Then I'm also like, but there's no masks, and like the masks are huge in Akata. But also, different country, different traditions. This is the thing too, is that people are like, oh, it's the African thing, and I’m like no! That’s the fucking stupidest thing. [Laughs.]

mandipa: Veeery different. I mean the distance between like Nigeria, where Akata was just taking place, and Zimbabwe. That's very far. I don't know how wide of a distance, how many kilometres, but I feel like that has to be like going from Canada to almost Mexico. It's very far.

ash alberg: Yes!

mandipa: The fact that there's overlap in some of these things, just makes me believe more. How do places that are so far from each other, and back then in a time where it's not like you could just easily just get planes ...

ash alberg: One hundred percent.
mandipa: I can't just hop on a quick afternoon trip.

ash alberg: You’re not just like casually going back and forth. If you travel there, the chances of you coming home are very low.

mandipa: Exactly! So, the fact that so many different cultures around the world have similar beliefs ... I’m just like, huh.

ash alberg: Humans ... Collective consciousness ... mandipa: Collective consciousness, right?
ash alberg: Doing all of that little dream walking ... [Both talking at the same time.]

mandipa: Right! Yep, because my mom has also talked about, I think my grandmother saw a mermaid when she was young.

ash alberg: Interesting!
mandipa: Yep. She'd gone to the river to do some laundry, like wash clothes or

something and yeah. She saw a mermaid, a siren, whatever you'd like to call it.

ash alberg: Yes. Did it try to lure her in? ‘Cause this is also the interesting thing, depending on the story and the sorts of the story, all of these various supernatural, other natural creatures, have either neutral ... but often either like, not so great choices that they're doing ... [Mandipa giggle.] Or like slightly nefarious reasons, or they're very good creatures.

But I feel like, a lot of the very good creatures are usually the watered down, post-Christian, colonialism version. When we look at pretty much all of the older beliefs, regardless of where in the world we're talking about, all of these creatures are just as complicated and complex as humans are by nature.

mandipa: Absolutely.
ash alberg: Where it's like, it's very rare that you have something as black and

white as devil and God. To me, I'm like, god is not that ... clear.

mandipa: Seriously... I have some questions. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: And the devil as well. I have this probably not quite healthy, good relationship with the Devil card in tarot? [Mandipa chuckles.] Anytime it pops up I'm like, you're okay. You can be here. Then we look at the Greek gods, and they're fucking like ... I mean, they're fucking.

[Both cackle and talk at the same time.]

I mean, the amount of rape, the amount of pettiness that happens, which I actually appreciate because I feel like the monotheistic God of Christianity and mainstream Judaism and Islam is this paternalistic figure that is being held to a standard that is impossible, and also holds you to standards that are impossible.

mandipa: Impossible. Absolutely.

ash alberg: And that’s the whole fucking ... It really is damaging, I think, to the human psyche to have this ... you're constantly striding, striving to be the best version of yourself without ever having any sort of affirmation of, yes, you're doing a good job. When you think of if a child is trying to be good and trying to do well, and you just never give them any indication? Like that fucks their head.

mandipa: Oh yeah, whew! Why are you talking about me right now? [Ash cackles and snorts, Mandipa laughs.]

I feel attacked! [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: We’ll always come over to give everybody some cuddles, just checking in.

mandipa: No, because yes, that's absolutely ... you hit it, the nail on the head with that one. I don't think it's particularly healthy ... and everyone can do what they want with their own spiritual journeys and paths.

I just am grateful that I decided to ask some questions. ash alberg: Yeah.

mandipa: When I was seventeen, I told my parents that I didn't necessarily want to practice just Islam anymore and that's when I first started doing some preliminary research on my own ‘cause I was just like, hey, all you old people told me to practice this, but I have some questions. [Chuckles.]

Then I got sidetracked in life and did some not so good things and when I came back ... I continued on the asking questions, and I think that's really just important to just ask questions, right? Have that kind of curiosity and think critically about what the information is that you're taking in.

With this book, you can tell from a Turtle Island perspective, definitely from a Black American perspective. Her stories are different from the stories that I'm telling even about my own family's experiences, having jinn, the witches that do this, and the sirens or mermaids that do that, but there's room and that’s what I like about having just ... I have a very wide spirituality and I'm just open to learning about and hearing about all these different things. There's room in my pantheon for everybody. You know?

ash alberg: I love that. And I think that's one of the things that I value most when I'm having conversation, because I used to be, and I still am ... I have a whole whack of like [makes sound suggesting skepticism] when it comes to, especially Christianity, but honestly just any organized religion. I am learning to make more space for the folks who have faith, as a result of not having faith in that, but having faith in other powers and things and beings.

I think it's such a human thing to just be looking for answers to the really big questions, and there's something actually really healthy about acknowledging that we are not the be all and end all, and that we don't know everything. And that searching for some of those answers is kind of part of what being a human is, I think.

mandipa: Absolutely! And this is something that we've been doing since the beginning of time, right? Back to the old school philosophers to people like us who are just chatting and being like, we don't know.

There are so many things that, despite all the advancements that science and technology have made and have helped us to understand the world around us, there's some things that we simply don't. And when we talk about ... even the ocean? The ocean that's just here, we've only explored ... I think now we're like at ten percent.

ash alberg: We think we're at ten percent, like who the fuck really knows. mandipa: Right! Like we’re guesstimating. I also have to make room for

science and spirituality together, and I don't think that those are opposites. ash alberg: Yeah.

mandipa: I don't think that they are incompatible. They have to go hand in hand for me. There's some things that science can't explain. The universe is a really big place; sometimes the universe does things that I'm just like, oh, okay. This is what we're doing.

ash alberg: A hundred percent, like ah shit, okay. [Both laugh.] mandipa: It’s like, I guess. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Is there anything in the book that you were like, cool, this is great, I'm gonna try this? Or where you were like, I'm gonna try this after I talk to somebody a little bit more about it? [Mandipa laughs.]

mandipa: Well, yeah. I do have a healthy respect slash fear ... ash alberg: [Laughs.] Always a good thing to have.
mandipa: ... of messing with things that I shouldn't mess with. ash alberg: A hundred percent.

mandipa: You know what I mean? So when I talk about my own spirituality, I keep my practice very ... I pray a lot. I try to go outside, I like being in nature, it helps ground me. It helps me feel connected.

I've created many rituals for myself, but those are more just certain products that I use when I'm showering or before I do a tarot spread. That's like just me. In terms of like ...

ash alberg: You like reached for the book and then you pulled your fingers away. [Both cackle, Ash snorts.]

That was such a good like ... I just needed to voice that for the podcast, because it was really this perfect moment of like, “I want ... but oh god.”

mandipa: Oh my gosh. You know what I think, I really, I like the idea of gris-gris bags because I think I'm a tactile person when it comes to spirituality. I really like feeling parts of the earth, physically I collect rocks that just speak to me and I have my mini crystal collection, like any good witch does. But also feathers and just anything.

So, and they ... I feel the way that they make me feel grounded. When I'm struggling sometimes, I take one in my hand, or I pray while I'm holding a rock that I got on a hike, or one of my crystals. So, I think the gris-gris bags ... that's something that I could see myself implementing into my day to day or on a special occasion, if I'm really struggling with something.

Altars, it's interesting. Those aren't so new to me necessarily because I lived in Mexico with my family, I think I've told you that.

ash alberg: Yes.

mandipa: So, we lived there for five years. The day after Halloween is the Dia de Los Muertos so I saw altars constructed every year. So that one is not necessarily new to me.

If you're not familiar, it's the day after Halloween, it's the Day of the Dead to honor your ancestors. So, you build an altar with particular foods and juices and money and pictures of the loved ones that have passed away or whatever. So, every time I think about that, it makes me think of anybody who goes to a tombstone and leaves flowers.

ash alberg: A hundred percent.
mandipa: To me, it’s kind of the same thing. [Giggles.]

ash alberg: Absolutely. Yeah. A hundred percent. We’ve got our home altars and you've got your different altars for different things and different deities and all of that, but there's also just the altars that we, as humans have decided, we're going to have these like larger scale altars as a collective.

Which I think is also why there’s so much grief attached to finding unmarked graves because the altars are for prayer and for good thoughts and for recognition and for remembrance and for offerings. When someone passes on and is not given that basic honour, then it's a slap in the face, beyond a slap in the face.

mandipa: Yeah, I think that's something that probably, across cultures, across the world ... whether it is burying a person and having a tombstone or in other cultures it's cremating them, but they still have them in a nice urn, with the name and pictures and flowers, whatever. Across cultures, we honour our dead. That is something that is intrinsically hurtful to all of us, seeing an unmarked grave.

So, altars, I recently moved into a new place and now that I'm fully living on my own, I wanted to have a space that is purely for my spiritual practice, where I can go to pray, meditate, journal, do a tarot reading. So I've been thinking about how I want to construct that. If I want it to be a permanent altar or just a space

where I can create an altar for a specific ... Like if I introduce this kind of candle for different occasions.

ash alberg: Exactly, like kind of cleanse the space in between and then be like, today, we are talking about creativity. Today, I need to talk about money. Today, I need to talk to you, person in the family line.

mandipa: [Laughs.] Exactly! ash alberg: Excuse me!

mandipa: I have some questions! [Ash cackle-snorts.] Yeah, so I think I like that idea more, of just having a space that I can create. So this just gave me so many different ideas for different altars ... Like you were saying, okay, this is to talk to the ancestors. This is to pray for a windfall.

I need to talk to Oshun today. I need to talk to Mami Wata today. Oh, this book. [Ash laughs.] There’s so much. Even though I read it, I need to keep borrowing it.

ash alberg: You can! I actually have another copy so you can just keep that one. mandipa: Oh bless. [Both laugh.]
ash alberg: Like no, I need it right away, mark those pages. [Joking.]
mandipa: Yeah, there's lots in here.

ash alberg: It’s an interesting one because, fun fact for everybody listening to this episode, we actually have Lilith Dorsey on in season three as a guest. So, you're gonna want to listen. When you hear the other half of this episode, one thing that I got, that I think as a white person I was like hyper aware of, which I should be ... slash other white people, if this was not your immediate response, then imma tell you, just slow your roll and question a few things.

My immediate response was, this is amazing, and also I don't get to just fuck around with these things. But what I definitely got after speaking with Winifred and Lilith in particular, was that because these are living traditions and we are not necessarily ... Like when I'm trying to connect to like old Slavic traditions, those deities are still hanging around. It's not like they disappear, but they're also not necessarily living ongoing traditions where if I'm like, I'm gonna talk to Brigid or I'm going to talk to Matka Boska Zielna, who is the mother of the

herbs, who then with Catholicism became the Lady Mary Divine Mother, blah blah blah.

I’m not necessarily going to get as intense of a response or as a ... It’s like you’re poking somebody and they're half looking up and they haven’t decided if I'm going to deal with you, but like sure you can talk to me, but like with these, the Orishas and the Loas, they are very particular, they are very specific, and they are very alive right now.

So, dabbling was the word that the others used so I will use it here. It is not for dabbling. So, it's such an interesting thing in terms of ... as a starting point, and then also being like, okay, how much can I like try a little bit, and then also, ‘cause like we were saying not fucking with the powers, right?

mandipa: Yeah, yeah.

ash alberg: Like how much are you allowed to do some basic good offer things, not being like, I need you to help me on this specific thing. ‘Cause I feel like now you're directly engaging, but being like, I just would like to give you a thing and acknowledge that you are a thing that is relevant to this other thing that I am doing. [dog collar jingling in background]

I apologize, Noah, for how many times you’re about to have to check ‘thing’ in the transcript. [Mandipa laughs.] But as soon as you start asking for things, then I feel like that's where it starts to get a little ... tricksy.

mandipa: Absolutely, because a large part of ... So, I'm in recovery, I'm almost two years sober. So that's what led to me restarting to go on a spiritual journey and develop a kind of practice for myself. One of the things that I learned through some twelve step programs and just through that process is, I don't necessarily ask for anything specific. I ask for like general guidance. I ask, just give me whatever it is that I need to know.

ash alberg: Yes! Road opening spells, rather than I want this very specific thing.

mandipa: Right, because the thing is ... [Both cackle.] And this is something my mom has said for a long time, but I started to understand now as an adult. You might ask ... and I think she was talking about it more in terms of my father or with her, as a kid, if I was asking them for something, don't ask for something specific because ... you could be blocking your own blessing, right?

ash alberg: Yes! Yeah.
mandipa: Like I could be asking for five dollars. Meanwhile, you were willing

to give me a hundred. ash alberg: Yes.

mandipa: So, I use that same kind of energy ... Like I maintain that same kind of energy with the powers that be. Also I could ask for something and it could be interpreted... and delivered...

ash alberg: Yep!

mandipa: In a different way ... [Both cackle.]

ash alberg: It's, my thing was like hexes and things, like I could try and hex you and then if I fuck it up, or somebody decides that I just didn't do it quite right, they're going to toss it back at me three-fold. Or I can just do some nice boundary binding protection work.

mandipa: Exactly.
ash alberg: Not binding, but definitely we'll pour some salt, we'll wash the

windows and then draw our protection sigils on the windows.

mandipa: There we go. Yeah. So that's how I move, because you know what? [Both laugh, Ash snorts.] There’s like, oh, no, I don't want to fuck with those powers because who knows what they'll throw at me. So yeah, I just keep it real open.

And I think for somebody who is wanting to come in to trying some of these things, even me, this is new for me, right? I'm African, but I'm not Nigerian. I'm not Malian. So, there's certain things that, yes, I want to be respectful.

Even though these things might've originated on the continent, we talked about how they have evolved and been combined with traditional practices from the indigenous folk here. So a lot of these powers are maybe not for me necessarily and when I'm praying to the spirits, the Mothers, I can send out a prayer to them too: thank you, keep it real general, keeping it light. [Ash laughs.]

I'm not asking for anybody to be cursed, I'm not saying a pox on his peen ... [Both cackle loudly.] No matter how tempted I might be.

ash alberg: Yeah, a hundred percent! mandipa: See, that stuff I save for my journal. ash alberg: Right, there we go. Yes.

mandipa: That's where I vent and then I can go calmly and be like, if you could just give me some guidance. [Ash snorts.] Tell me what I'm supposed to do in this situation. That's it. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: I love that. I will say one thing that I really love, like you love the gris-gris bags, I really loved all the recipes because I'm a kitchen witch. Literally, as I was like reading those things, I was like, oh my god, I can make this for Marina and Mandipa and I’m going to make this, and I’m going to make that! [Mandipa chuckles.]

I just got really excited about a lot of the recipes and I also got really excited, in the back of the book, in one of the appendices, it is a list of the plants.

mandipa: Oh yes!

ash alberg: And the ingredients, and I was like, oh, this is great. Because also that one does actually overlap across many traditions. So with some of the plants ... Like my ancestry, it's very convenient as a hedge witch and a plant witch because all of my plants live along the same bioregion. [Both laugh.]

So the fact that I had such a strong relationship with birch as a child made a lot more sense when I found out that birch is one of the most sacred trees in Poland. I deeply love my crowberries and juniper, and that makes sense for my Northern Scottish heritage, right?

There's a very clear overlap for me in terms of the plants that I have relationships with and have always had relationships with. It makes sense because my ancestors also did. I also love a lot of other ingredients from other regions and growing regions, but I just don't have the same kind of relationship.

Like hibiscus I adore and I'm building a relationship. I also live in a ... It's -35, hibiscus are not happy here. So, the process of building a relationship by actually growing one is going to take some very specific time and resources.

mandipa: Absolutely.

ash alberg: And I have realized that for me ... That is a way that I do build a deeper relationship with a plant, regardless of ancestrally, what it has potentially meant further along my line.

And so, I was really excited reading that list of plants and then literally making garden plans for this year and also in the future. I'm like, these will be the greenhouse plants. This is the money magic garden, this is the love garden. [Mandipa laughs.] This is the outer boundary plants. These are the inner boundary plants

mandipa: That’s awesome. That’s fantastic.
ash alberg: It was, I think that was my favorite part of the book, which is

ridiculous.

The whole book is great, but that was the part of the book where I was like, this is so exciting.

mandipa: No, that makes sense. Yeah. The appendices are a lot, like she really takes the time to describe everything. So even if there's terms that you're coming across that you have no idea what they are like, it all really gets explained.

Yeah, this thing was put together really well. It's interesting how you said hibiscus ‘cause that's one that I feel a connection to because we grow it quite a bit and it's a juice that we drink quite often. Especially during Ramadan, the month of Ramadan. So that's the one, we drink that juice as we're breaking our fast and eat it with dates.

ash alberg: That would be a delicious combo.
mandipa: Right? Like that high sugar after you've fasted all day.

ash alberg: Yeah, and then also like the tang of the hibiscus, just like getting the digestive juices going.

mandipa: Yeah. Yeah. ash alberg: Delightful.

mandipa: Delightful. Yeah. With this journey, I’ve really just tried to see it as a journey. There's no end goal. That's the person that I used to be. [Ash laugh-snorts.] I'm trying to grow. [Mandipa laughs.] I used to be so goal-oriented, so result-oriented. Like I have to do this until I get to this point.

ash alberg: I am feeling attacked right now. [Joking.] [Both cackle, Ash snorts] mandipa: With this I've had to accept that there's no end, like I can’t be like

okay, I'm done now.
ash alberg: A hundred percent! [Laughs.]

mandipa: Like okay, I understand spirituality now. No, it's a continuous thing. It's going to evolve. As I learn new things, I might feel ... Like I could try a gris-gris bag and all of a sudden feel like, oh, this is it.

This is so me. Or I could try and I could be like, okay. Yeah. Oh, that was cool. It was alright. So, I like that. I'm trying to embrace that and not feel frustrated by it.

ash alberg: Yes, yes, yes.
mandipa: Yeah. So, it's a shift in mindset which is a good thing I guess. [Both

laugh, Ash snorts.] Growth or whatever.

ash alberg: I love that. I'm going to double check and see. I feel like we've covered all the things that are important. I'm reading this brainstorming Google doc that I had made for when Snort and Cackle was first coming along.

This is the end of season two. If you listen to our book review episode for season one, I did not leave ... I have a note here that says, “Recommending scale, one to five, question mark, something cute and clever. One being meh. Five being good for the soul.” [Mandipa laughs.]

If you listen to episode thirteen of season one, I did not do that. But I feel like for season two, we could do that. I don't know what something cute and clever is in regards to this though.

mandipa: Ah, something cute and clever. I mean ... Oh no. You like dogs. [Both laugh, Ash cackles.] I was going to say something in relation to cats!

ash alberg: Mandipa is a cat person. We could do cats though.
mandipa: I was going to say, but my cat’s mean. So I can’t even use her ...

ash alberg: See this is why I don't do cats. Cats are too much like humans. Dogs are like toddlers, they love you unconditionally. Sometimes in an annoying way, but they want you to be happy. Cats are conditional.

mandipa: They really have to decide they like you and then ... Then maybe if you feed them enough times, if you give them treats, like you really have to bribe them.

ash alberg: I know! They're like humans. They're like adult humans. That's my problem with cats.

mandipa: My cat is a pain, like Jesus. [Ash chuckles.] But we get along.

I don't know! Rating of this book ... one to five or one to ten?

ash alberg: Either.

mandipa: I would rate this highly ... I would rate this. Yeah. It did what it said it was going to do, right?

ash alberg: Yes.

mandipa: If you want information about the divine feminine, about these traditions that come from the continent and then how they've evolved into modern day or pass through the enslaved folks and how they were maybe hidden a little beneath Christianity, this book does a very excellent job of providing that information and giving so many different suggestions for different ways to practice that.

ash alberg: Yes.

mandipa: Not just the historical information, but how to actually implement it into your practice. So 10 out of 10 for me. [Ash chuckles and claps.] 10 out of 10. It gave what it was supposed to give, you know?

ash alberg: Yeah, and I feel especially for an arena that at this point has not had that much written about it. Like witchcraft is already a niche. [Mandipa

chuckles.] And then you add in the fact that it does come from oral traditions, which complicates matters. Then you add in the part where it's not about white people. [Both cackle.] Then it's just like ...

mandipa: Niche within a niche, within a niche.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I would agree. I think it's a really great starting point. I also really appreciated how much namedropping Lilith does in the book, in a way that's not like, “I'm dropping these names so that then you are impressed by me,” but in like a, “these are the people that I have studied with, you can go and research them and study with them” and/or at least having that through line of knowledge that is not being interrupted so that we actually have deeper reference points so that you can continue your research. I think it's super fucking important.

mandipa: Absolutely, yeah. So those are the things, those are the people that I'm going to start looking up, to continue to go down this path and learn more. Absolutely.

ash alberg: Sweet. Okay. Cool. This is the first half of our book review episode for season two and stay tuned right now for the second half of our episode. [Both laugh.]

Mandipa, thank you so much for chatting with me. I really appreciate you just hanging out and being very open and honest and vulnerable. I really appreciate it.

mandipa: No problem! It's been really fun. I'm glad we got to chat. Thanks for having me.

[Audio cuts between first half and second half.]

ash alberg: I am here with Winifred Tannetta, who you might recognize her voice from season one, because we actually did a whole episode together. I've brought her in for this book review episode, not because Winifred read the book, but actually because Winifred is part of an actual Orisha house. I'm probably using the wrong words here.

But I felt, especially as somebody who has absolutely no knowledge of these things, and I was saying to Winifred before we started recording, in my head, when I am learning in the book about these houses and the way that they are structured, and the way that you get initiated in. And it's these families that are

not necessarily blood families that are then making up these very supportive family structures.

To me, my brain goes immediately over to the drag houses, and I don't actually know if that is a connection that people who are from those traditions would be like, “That's a good analogy, Ash, thank you for that connection.” [Chuckles.] I don't know if that would actually be the case. But in my brain, I'm like, ah, yes, this is how my brain makes sense of these structures of things, and that's not the most useful necessarily.

So, Winifred is here to provide us a little bit of context of which I am grateful for. Then we're also going to actually have Lilith Dorsey, the author, on for a separate episode so there will also be a lot more context I can be given at that point. So that is more useful than me reading.

So ... Hi Winifred. [Chuckles.]

winifred: Hi, Ash. Thank you for having me. Excited to be here as always. We always have way too much fun when we have these conversations.

ash alberg: We do, this episode might end up being longer only because there just ends up being so many piecemeal pieces that get brought together for it, and I'm okay with that. Everyone should be used to long form podcasts at this point.

winifred: Side rants and tangents.
ash alberg: Exactly. Exactly. So for folks who read the book, it talks ... There's

a lot of different traditions and a lot of different structures and practices.

Of course, when we are talking about something as broad as Afrocentric religious and ancestral practices, a very large portion of the book does dedicate itself to traditions related to Voodoo and Hoodoo and Kumi, and those sorts of things that have much more of a root here on Turtle Island within certain groups.

So having a bit of structure and context around those things in particular is useful because you're actually initiated into one of the houses, and one of the things that the book really stresses which I think is useful regardless of what tradition it is that you're looking to be studying more is that yeah, you can use this book as a starting point to understand a little bit more context, and to understand some basic practices. But realistically, they're very complex.

The magic can be quite major. So don't use this as like a, okay, I've read the book so now I'm going to go and consider myself a practitioner.

winifred: Wait, can I interject for a second? ash alberg: Yes, please [Chuckles.]

winifred: Alright, before you go further, ‘cause I've had some thoughts. So first of all, I just want to say for all your listeners out there, I just want to clarify my level of awareness and understanding. So just to be clear for everyone that's listening, I was brought into these traditions.

I was not raised in these traditions. I was brought in by an elder. Also just wanna clarify that within these traditions, the tradition that you already referenced a few things from, like Voodoo to Hoodoo, to the ... It’s pronounced Lucumí or Regla de Ocha, or the more Western world word is Santería.

But really within the tradition, a more respectful term would be Lucumí or Regla de Ocha. Just to clarify for listeners, there's different levels to initiation. So, I am what is considered a Lwa, which means that I've received some ... like I've been brought into the house, I have some entry level initiations, but I have not made, what would be considered, a full.

So for most folks that might be witches, the word initiation has a different context than it does within Lucumí. So, I have not made the full initiation, which would be to make ‘ocha’. So, I have not made ocha.

Just so folks ... so I'm not a priest or priestess in the tradition. But I use the word ‘entry-level’ initiate. They wouldn't even say that word, but for folks that might have more of a witchcraft background, I think that could be helpful cause they use the word initiation, and I really can't.

As I talked about, we could reach out to some of my elders but they use the word initiation for every level. So, I, to clarify for listeners that might be of the tradition, I have received my elekes, I've received my warriors and I've also received an Orisha named ‘Olokun.’

So I have received Olokun, my elekes and my warriors. Just so that folks could understand where in the process I am. So technically, the word would be an ‘aleyo’, which is different than someone who has made ocha, that is a priest. I'm not a priest of the tradition. So today what I'm offering to your audience is to speak from my personal experiences, just so folks understand.

There are aspects of the traditions that are private to the house, a house is called an ‘ilé’. So, where I'm not allowed to speak out, it's not that I'm being rude. Out of respect to my elders and the wisdoms that they're keeping. If there's something I can't answer, I'll just say, that it's not appropriate for me to share, but I can share about my experiences where it's allowable.

ash alberg: See, I feel like that in and of itself, like explaining all of those things, has already provided a lot of really important context that also ... Yeah, it makes it very clear that, to just go and start considering yourself, oh, I've read this book ... or I've read a book and so now I can just go and start doing shit. [Joking.] You're like potentially really fucking with magic and with deities and with powers that are very strong.

That was one thing that I got out of the book was that all of the Orishas, all of the Lwas, there's some really powerful forces that also have some really intense nuance at times and you might think that you are speaking to one deity and in reality, you're speaking to a different version of that deity who requires different things. And if you don't have an elder or you don't have somebody who is much more knowledgeable about these things assisting in that.

Winifred: Guiding you.

ash alberg: Yeah, yeah. You could really fuck shit up. [Chuckles.]

winifred: Yeah, and you're bringing up a really important point. I know you're going to have the author on and they're going to be able to speak ... obviously it's their book and they're much more knowledgeable and experienced in many traditions.

These are considered African traditional diaspora or diasporic ... Is that the word? And I think what happens is that there are different pieces to it and they get woven together. We have Lucumí and then you have something like Haitian Voodoo or Hoodoo, and then you have New Orleans Voodoo, you have Hoodoo and conjure and folk magic.

Those are all different things and Lwa and Orisha are rooted in African ... They have similar roots that are in the African diaspora. They are different. So Lwa and Orisha are different and people blend them. Also, I think it's what you're bringing about ... one of the biggest things that was really emphasized with me is that these are living traditions.

So, when we think of witchcraft, because of patriarchy and all European, Northern European witchcraft, and patriarchy and the whole colonization and the oppression of Christianity converting. And Europe and the witch trials and the burning and how everything went underground or was lost, right? Or broken.

ash alberg: Yep, yeah.

winifred: But when it comes to witchcraft, those traditions, unless you happen to be in the few pockets where it didn't get cut off, broken, buried or outright destroyed. We are having, as modern folk, to revive or breathe life back into cultural traditions that once were vibrant and alive, but that have been disrupted.

ash alberg: Right.

winifred: Whereas with the African diaspora traditions, they are living traditions. They weren't died and having to be revived. They're real living traditions, is the best way to put it, which makes energy very different.

Also, I think there's cultural differences. So, when it comes to witchcraft, it's considered okay, it's considered acceptable or okay behaviour. So, someone who's studying witchcraft or paganism or magic might hear of a deity, like ‘Hecate’ and decide that they want to then go do more understanding and they might feel like they're starting to feel called to work with Hecate, and so they start to do that and that's considered okay.

As long as you're respectful, do your due diligence and do your study and whatnot to seek out Hecate, just for example.

ash alberg: Or Brigid.
winifred costello: Oh yeah, Brigid. Or some other Northern European goddess

that has presented itself to you in your life.

In the African traditions, that's not how it works. [Chuckles.] So, a lot of people will hear about Papa Legba or Elegua, which are different things. Papa Legba would be a ... Full disclosure I have friends who've practiced Voodoo and Haitian Voodoo, but I'm not trained on those things.

But like Papa Legba would be a Lwa, whereas Elegua is an Orisha, they're rooted from similar ... they have some common roots back into the African

diaspora. And like I said, I'm not an elder, so I'm just giving you my best translation of my interpretation and understanding of the context.

So people might think, oh Elegua, he opens roads. I want that, I wanna open my roads, I'm going to start petitioning Elegua. And if you aren't within the tradition and understanding of, this is a living tradition, and if you haven't been brought in with an elder or into a house or received guidance on it, the thing with ... I'm trying to think of a good analogy.

So Elegua, that is not an Orisha or any Orisha, you don't want to start engaging with an Orisha if you don't intend to follow through. It is not for dabbling. And I think in the witchcraft and the pagan world, dabbling is okay. I have my opinions about dabbling, I'm not advocating that I think that being a dabbler is okay, to be clear. But I think that's, it's more allowed.

ash alberg: Yeah, it's almost like normal practice, a little bit.

winifred: Yeah, and there is a lot of really important conversations happening around like it's important not to cherry pick and be cherry picking from traditions that are not yours, that you are not welcome to be part of or show in due respect in study with.

At the same time, in the witch world, it's okay to approach a deity. So, in the Orisha world, for lack of better way of trying to separate this out for your audience, if you started approaching Elegua, well, you better not stop, is sort of how it goes. Don't go there.

So, people, it's not a good idea to read about Elegua and be like, this is interesting! I think I'll do that. I want to open the roads in my life. If you're not in a house and if you're not in the tradition and you're not practicing and studying with an elder or raised in that tradition, you don't want to do that. You don't want to.

ash alberg: [Chuckles.] Right.
winifred: Because if you then stop working with Elegua, things can go

sideways. These are living traditions. ash alberg: Yeah, there’s consequences.

winifred: Yes, there are real consequences. So, it's better, if you need to do road opening, to just do road opening magic or work with somebody who's qualified

to help you with that, or to find the road opener in your tradition, in your practice, like within the lens of witchcraft.

So, I think that's where people run into trouble.

ash alberg: Yeah, instead of going and petitioning. I definitely got that as well, where it's like the devotional aspect of it is like you are, once you are ... I don't know if it's given or revealed, whoever it is that you are supposed to basically be devotional to. You are devotional to them ... forever?

winifred: Basically, yes. There are ways to ... And again, this is stuff that I wouldn't be able to answer really appropriately, but there are ways to probably take care of that.

If for some reason you changed directions, I really can't speak to that from my own personal experience, but you, if you are feeling, I think what we should say, so if you read a book like this and you are feeling really called, you should seek out an elder in the tradition and get a reading. Like a trustworthy, respectable elder within the tradition. People are welcome to reach out to me privately if they want.

ash alberg: I was going to say, I think that's a big part of it is like ... sorry, my brain just went into three different directions at once, I’m trying to bring them back into one thread.

So, part of why they are living traditions is also because they've been very actively maintaining ... I wouldn't say it's rebellious, it’s more resiliency against colonizing forces the whole way fucking through. Just maintain that energy and that aliveness all the way through. Also, we know colonization’s whole fucking purpose is to remove people from their community and from their touchpoints and from their roots.

So for folks who have lost access points, whether through broken family trees or through like ... my brain keeps going to residential schools up here, but that's not the right analogy or connection point. But if you don't know, if you don't have ties to a house, if you live somewhere where you don't know if there is an elder or if there is a house that also, is it the appropriate house for you to be initiated into, or is it the right elder for you to be talking to? How do you go about finding that?

And I guess the other thing about these traditions is that they're pretty specifically West African roots. Like East African roots and traditions are

different and so the practices and the stories and those are pretty specifically West Africa. And then living over here.

winifred: Yeah, so there's a lot to unpack in that conversation. I don't know if I'm the most qualified to unpack all of that. I can only speak through my experience, but I know through the middle passage, the Orisha survived and were able to come to the islands and then come to America and to South America.

I think you brought up a couple points I feel like I could speak to, just from my own experience. So, if you are finding that the Orisha is showing up in your life, which some people do, and that you're feeling very called to learn and study and read about these ways and feeling called to.

Like if you find yourself basically wanting, feeling really strongly, like I want to work with a particular Orisha, I would strongly recommend you get a reading. Also, I think people don't always understand ... so again, if we're like, witches, most folks are witches, looking at these traditions through the lens and context of ... Like when a witch gets a reading from a tarot reader and what that all entails is different than getting a reading with a Babalawo or with a Padrino or a Madrina or the elder.

So to clarify, a non-practitioner can get a reading with an elder and just get a reading, just like you would go to the tarot reader. Because the Padrino, or the Madrina, or the elder of the house is able to, because of their training and levels of initiation and training and study that they've put in. They can be just like the that liaison, so they can mediate for you and you can go to an elder and receive a reading and not join a house.

So, you can go to an elder and get a reading and receive, so say you have something going on or say you're feeling called or you just have something going on in your life. The elder can provide wisdom and insight to assist you through the vehicle of that reading. You could also petition ... not petition, but go to an elder and have a reading, and if you are drawn to practice these traditions, that will come up in the reading.

ash alberg: Okay.

winifred: So when I received my first reading, I had two readings from two different elders and both said that it was that for me, that I should enter the tradition. It came through clearly in both readings.

The first elder who gave the reading did not have a practicing house to bring me into, so I was referred to a different elder that had a house. So three months later, I got another reading and it was clear in that reading that I should be brought into the tradition. Through that reading, so it's a little ... It's just culturally and context-wise, it's different than when we think of tarot reading.

And I think for a lot of people that are curious or interested or learning about these ways or drawn to learn about them or just wanting to be more educated and informed. They think of maybe the context of tarot, which is different.

ash alberg: Yes.

winifred: Divination is divination, and divination plays a huge role in Lucumí, and I think that for witches, divination plays a huge role, or should, but it's just different.

So if one was drawn to practice witchcraft, they probably wouldn't go to witchcraft elder. They might go to a witchcraft elder to get a reading, but you wouldn't necessarily get the reading to ask if you should actually be brought into the traditional witchcraft.

ash alberg: Right.

winifred: It's just different. So, you can get a reading and not enter the tradition and just reap the benefits of the wisdom that you're receiving in the reading and the help, the support and guidance of an elder that's in the tradition. In your tradition, your reading might reveal that you should be brought into the tradition, the subsequent readings, and then when you are brought in, that's a lifetime obligation.

So, I am part of a house and that's forever, right? That's a lifetime obligation. So, you want to think carefully and long and really do your ... really take your time on that decision.

ash alberg: Yeah. It's not something to be taken lightly. As somebody who has a really hard time with any sort of structured anything, honestly, like there's very clear hierarchies, for very good reason, within these houses and there's very clear rules and ...

winifred: I like the word elder, I think it’s a really ... [Both talking at the same time.]

ash alberg: I ... Yeah.
winifred: I know the hierarchy is the word we reach for, but I think there's

respect and there's elders and there's protocols. ash alberg: Right.

winifred: And there's traditions and there's reason for them. It's about learning, seeking to understand and respect them. And every house is a little different.

ash alberg: Right.
winifred: My house ... every house is a little different. When you talked about

... I don't really, I didn't know that drag queens had drag queen houses.

ash alberg: Yeah, it's the most wonderful because it got its roots way back, but like voguing came out of the houses in New York City and they were born out of necessity where queer folks ... and continue to be out of necessity. Like when I lived in Halifax, there were multiple ... and continue to be multiple drag houses where it's multi-generational.

Because for queer folks, time and lifelines are not necessarily as long. You can be a grandparent because if it's a drag queen house, then you have your daughters. If it's a drag king house, slightly less frequent, but basically you have your grandchildren, you have your children who are the ones that you bring in and train and teach, and then they will then have theirs.

So, you can have grandchildren. And there might only be three years different between a parent and their children, and maybe ten years difference between a grandparent and the grandchildren within the house. But the whole thing is building a family structure and they function as families and they can be just as dysfunctional as families, but it is like building family ties that may not exist from blood family because of the queerness.

But like to me, that’s where my brain goes and has a reference point to, when I think of people who are not from blood families coming together to be learning from one another and having those levels of knowledge and passing down of knowledge, like the back and forth.

winifred: Right, yeah. The role of the elders and wisdom, like wisdom keepers, I guess is the word I would use. And the other thing I want to emphasize within

... I like the Orisha but Lucumí and these traditions that ... they're incredibly community-based.

ash alberg: Right.

winifred: Which is also another thing that's different. I think for, like I said, I think comparing ... they're not comparable, they're very different. But for most folks who are probably listening might be witches and pagans coming to this podcast, I think that for folks to understand that so for witchcraft, especially modern witches, I think a lot of people are solitary. They're on their own practicing in a very solitary way.

Within Lucumí, the emphasis is strongly on community and coming together like in ceremonies and things that I can't go into the details of, but the emphasis is on community and your community obligations and volunteering, supporting, helping, assisting and really being there for each other.

That’s the emphasis is being really ... you are in a house and community obligations, but there's reciprocity. And there’s a lot of joy. Like when I have gone to weekends where we come together, like our house is blessed to have a ... like one of my Padrinos has some property in upstate New York and when we come together, like it is incredibly beautiful and there is a strong emphasis on food and community and special foods that are made and song.

And when pre-pandemic, when there can be drumming, it's an incredibly beautiful tradition. So, it is different than when I think of witches, often most witches practice solitary and struggle to find community and to come together. Never mind pre- ... now we had the pandemic, but witchcraft has covens and covens can have daughter covens.

So, there is some of that, like you were talking about the drag houses, like that structure and that lineage. It's not everyone that comes to witchcraft enters a coven. I think covens are less common and now you have the pandemic.

ash alberg: Yes. So how do you know ... I think this was where I forgot to follow through on my earlier thought, which is, it's a large commitment, it's a lifetime commitment. So how do you know and trust that the house that you are being initiated into is the right fit? And also, what if something goes wrong? Because humans are complicated creatures, even if we remove all of the supernatural and other natural forces.

So, what happens if it's not ... what happens if you need to leave? Can you leave? Should you leave? Is there any sort of normal process for that or is that, it all just depends on the situation?

winifred: I'm going to leave that answer to an elder who is qualified to answer it. I am not ...

ash alberg: Alright. We will have a follow-up conversation with somebody. [Giggles.]

winifred: That's not a question I can answer. I can answer from my own experience, it's important to get to know the house before you enter it by ... there are more public ...

ash alberg: Right.

winifred costello: Well now the pandemic, not so much. But pre-pandemic, there are certain times it might be a more public celebration. Like certain drums were drumming, or celebrations were more open. Or someone in the house ... So for me, the house I am part of, I am friends with someone, one of my godbrothers is a friend of mine.

We became friends, we get to know each other. And so two things were coming up. I think it's more helpful if I just tell from my own story real quickly, before we have to wrap up. So the Orisha were showing up in my dreams. I'm dreaming and dream ... psychic ability, divination is a strong wheelhouse for me, my entire life.

And I was having a series of dreams that were clearly Orisha, like very specific details, for a number of years. And so those dreams were happening first in my life and I journaled and keep them and they were very specific and I was recording all those. And then I became friends with one of my godbrothers, I didn't know that they were at a house. I didn't know anything about any of this.

And we became friends so we would just talk about psychic stuff and we connected through the pagan world and conjure and root work and those kinds of things, it was more what we connected on. And we both read tarot so we got into tarot conversations, and then we started talking about dreams. And then when I started describing things and when my friend came to my house and saw my altars, they saw the influence of specific Orishas and they said, “Where did you learn that?”

And I said, oh, I dreamt it. And they said, “You dreamt that, and then you did that?” I said, yeah, I had this dream to set up this altar and so I did, and repeatedly that was happening and repeatedly my friend kept being like, “Where did you learn that?”

And I said, I dreamt it. In the dream, this being came to me and said, do this. And then they said, “I think that you should get a reading with my Padrino, with my elder,” and so I did. And I was curious. At that point, they had piqued my curiosity. I started to read some of the more respectable books of the ... I’m kind of shortening this story for the interest of the podcast.

But eventually that led to me getting one reading and then the second reading and so that's how I was brought in. So usually, people are brought in by the Orisha themselves, like an Orisha may show up in your life and tap you and start engaging with you and working with you and bring you in to the house, if that makes sense.

[Both talk at the same time.]

ash alberg: It does. And then there's still your due diligence of, cause I think my main concern for folks who have truly no touch points and don't live in an area where these traditions and practices are very openly ... and as open as any of these sorts of traditions get to be practiced, where if you don't live in New Orleans, then the openness of New Orleans Voodoo, for example, is obviously not gonna be as easy to access.

Also, potentially you're going to have fewer folks who are not actually respectable, who are just trying to profit off of it. So regardless, whether you live in an area where there's lots of influence, and so you're trying to separate out what is true, what is somebody just trying to make a profit? What is somebody who doesn't really know what they're doing, but is acting as though they do?

Like, how do you find those respectable elders? And then if you live in an area where there's not that influence, how do you go about finding it and still being able to trust that yes, this is ...

winifred: Yeah, that is a great question. I don't have the exact, like I'm in New England and I'm somewhere where it was easy for me to access things more easily. So, I don't have a great answer. I will put out there again, folks are welcome to reach out to me.

There are certain times of the year that my Padrino does open up to do readings for folks that are not in the tradition, that are not in the house, and it's through a reading that, you might need a reading and the reading might just have something for you, I would call it a prescription, something for you to do that the elder will let you know. Or the reading may come through and so basically, you don't join a house unless the Orisha ...

ash alberg: Is telling you.

winifred: Speaks through that, the reading, to say it’s advised you join a house. Same with every level of initiation, so the levels of initiation come through in the reading as well.

ash alberg: Gotcha.
winifred: Like, oh you should receive this, or you should, so on and so forth.

Like these kinds of things. It is harder, I mean there is the internet but you gotta be careful with the internet, obviously. Folks are welcome to reach out to me because I have a wonderful beloved Padrino and he does open up to take readings for folks that are outside the house a few times a year. It can be a little bit of a wait.

Obviously with the pandemic and everything, everyone's so busy, and there are other trusted ... when you have the author on, she might be aware of people that she can recommend. So, I think that those are good places. I would just use a slow approach, take your time finding someone and try to find a referral or get a reference on something, and don’t just jump into it.

I think it's most important that, if they're really continuing to show up and are really feeling called to do your due diligence, to really be respectful, one, be respectful. Two, don't just start practicing something without, especially when it comes to Orisha, don't just willy nilly practice something.

I condensed my story, but that really took place over, I think like a five- or six-year period, like those dreams and those things were happening for many years.

ash alberg: Yeah.

winifred: And then eventually the doors around that opened. So, there's no need to rush. And I don't know if you’re talking about other books, but I would

recommend another book for folks that that might be interested in learning more. So Luisah Teish attached wrote the book, Jumbalaya.

ash alberg: Okay.

winifred: Jumbalaya ... The thing is that, if you are called and if the Orisha is showing up and you're called to understand and want to have a more deeper knowledge and don't want to overstep your boundaries, the material in Jumbalaya is for a non-initiate.

ash alberg: Okay, cool. That's a really great reference, especially if it's like yes, having trust in the universe that if something is supposed to happen, it will unveil itself for you in the time it is supposed to. And also, in the interim having resources that are accessible to you and that are going to allow you to start to do that.

And start a practice without fucking yourself over or without angering an Orisha unintentionally, or like doing it in the way that the Orishas are going to be okay with.

winifred: Yeah, I would, yeah. My takeaways are like, do not dabble with Orishas. [Ash laughs.] If you're a dabbler don’t ...

ash alberg: I feel like that's a really good ...

winifred: If you're a dabbler, don't. Just don't. [Ash cackles.] If you're a dabbler... Just don't. That is not what these traditions are about. Two, Jumbalaya is a book written for folks who are not initiates, and who are seeking to know a little more and have non-initiate, appropriate level ... everything in that book Luisah Teish specifically wrote for that it's a non-initiate level, if that makes sense. I think that makes sense for your followers.

If you are feeling called and want to know a deeper thing, people are welcome to reach out to me and I can forward your information along when my house opens up, when my elders open up their readings to non-initiates. It only happens like once or twice a year and the wait can be a few months. That's another thing I think people don't understand is like with tarot, we’re used to going on the internet, I want to tarot reading, I want it today, I click around until I find a tarot reader and I get my tarot reading.

That is not how readings in a house work. So if you're having that very capitalist approach, that's not what this is. None of this is about extraction and it isn't for cherry picking and it isn't ...

ash alberg: It’s not an immediate consumption.

winifred: Yes. Cause I've seen some folks feel like, oh, I want a reading. And then oh, I have to wait three months? And then they are annoyed or something. That is not how these traditions work, and you're not understanding right out of the gate.

ash alberg: Right.
winifred: If that makes sense. This isn't like, I click and get a tarot reading

online. Get a tarot reading if you just want a tarot reading. ash alberg: Yeah.

winifred: And don't start working with an Orisha that you ... just don't dabble and don't be going where you shouldn't be going. I guess that’s what I would say.

ash alberg: This has been super useful. We do have to ... you and I can talk for all the time, but we do have to cut this now, but this has been super useful. [Laughs.]

And the context I think will be very useful for listeners who are, like as a result of reading this book, are finding that there are some things that are starting to maybe make sense for them and so being, like having some better ideas of how to get started in a way that is respectful to the tradition and in a way that is also, is maybe like counter to what, especially current, like trendy witchcraft, which is very much capitalist structured, is like if you're going to do it, do it properly.

winifred: That was well said.
ash alberg: [Laughs.] Thank you.

winifred: There are proper steps and with respect that are not about cultural appropriation, and not about going somewhere where you don't have any business going.

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah. That totally makes sense. And also, in the event that the Orishas are like, nope, then respecting that we don't always get what we want. [Chuckles.]

winifred: That is for sure.

ash alberg: To know whether or not it is the right avenue for you, then taking the steps to do that in the proper respectful ways. That, I think, will hopefully be helpful to listeners.

We are going to have Lilith Dorsey on herself to talk and explain things and then also hopefully have on some folks from your house who can also be explaining things. Of course, we are also talking about other traditions beyond just these traditions, but it's such a diverse and broad group of categories within, you could be running multiple podcasts on just this material that is accessible to folks who aren't initiated.

So yeah, we'll definitely have more chats on from more folks who can provide even more guidance for the folks who are interested.

winifred: Well, I ...
ash alberg: Sorry. [Chuckles.] [Both talking at the same time.]

winifred: Yeah. Thank you for having me. And just as we wrap up for anyone who I just want to clarify again, I am just speaking from my own experience, through my lens, my interpretation and understanding. I am not a full initiate, fully initiated. I am not a fully initiated priestess of Orisha. I am just an aleyo, in a house with an elder and blessings to the Orisha and thank you for having me.

And if I've gotten something, a little goofy or a little goofed up, I'm sure I will be corrected, but I really just try to speak from my own heart and my own experiences here.

ash alberg: We appreciate it a lot. I appreciate it a lot. Thank you, Winifred. Oh, I gotta go do another Zoom call, but thank you so much for this. This has been so helpful.

winifred: Thank you!

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays in the background.] You can find full episode recordings and transcripts at snortandcackle.com. Just click on podcast in the main menu. Follow snort and cackle on Instagram @snortandcackle and join our seasonal book club with #SnortandCackleBookClub. Don't forget to subscribe and review the podcast via your favourite podcasting platform.

Editing provided by Noah Gilroy. Recording and mixing by Ash Alberg music, by Yesable.