season 2, episode 2 - building community & boundaries with casey ryder

our guest for episode 2 is casey ryder! casey is the owner of portfiber, a fiber arts supply shop in portland, maine. she is also the distributor of cashmere people yarns, a women-run business made up of hand-spinners, dyers, and fiber producers in tajikistan and afghanistan. non-work-life casey loves to listen to music, dance, cook food, and be with sweet humans. you can find her online at portfiber.com and on instagram @portfiber.

each season we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #snortandcacklebookclub, with a book review by ash and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. this season's #snortandcacklebookclub read is "orishas, goddesses, and voodoo queens" by lilith dorsey.

take the fibre witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz. follow us on instagram @snortandcackle and be sure to subscribe via your favourite podcasting app so you don't miss an episode!

seasons 1-3 of snort & cackle are generously supported by the manitoba arts council.

transcript

snort & cackle - season 2, episode 2 - casey ryder

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] Hello, and welcome to the Snort and Cackle podcast. I'm your host, Ash Alberg. I'm a queer fibre witch and hedgewitch. And each week I interview a fellow boss witch to discuss how everyday magic helps them make their life and the wider world, a better place.

Expect serious discussions about intersections of privilege and oppression, big C versus small C capitalism, rituals, sustainability, astrology, ancestral work, and a whole lot of snorts and cackles. Each season, we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #SnortAndCackleBookClub with a book review by me and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. Our book this season is Orishas, Goddesses, and Voodoo Queens by Lilith Dorsey.

Whether you're an aspiring boss witch looking to start your knitwear design business, a plant witch looking to play more with your local naturally dyed color palette or a knit witch wondering just what the hell is a natural yarn and how do you use it in your favorite patterns, we've got the solution for you.

Take the free fiber witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz and find out which self-paced online program will help you take your dreams into reality. Visit ashalberg.com/quiz [upbeat music fades out] and then join fellow fiber witches in the Creative Coven Community at ashalberg.com/creative-coven-community for 24/7 access to Ash’s favorite resources, monthly zoom knit nights, and more. [End of intro.]

I am here with Casey Ryder. Casey is the owner of PortFiber, a fiber art supply shop in Portland, Maine. She is also the distributor of Cashmere People Yarns, are a woman-run business made up of hand spinners, DIYers and fiber producers in Tajikistan and Afghanistan. Non work-life, Casey loves to listen to music, dance, cook food, and be with sweet humans often, which we get to see on your lovely Instagram channels. So welcome, Casey.

casey ryder: Thank you so much for having me.
ash alberg: Thanks for joining me. This is going to be fun.

casey ryder: Glad to be here.

ash alberg: And nobody else can see, but you've got your pupperoo with you. Jackson, he's adorable, and Willow ditched us for now, but we'll see how long that lasts. [Both laugh.]

casey ryder: Yes. Jackson is just leaning in for some pets right now.

ash alberg: Classic. So tell us a bit about you and what you do in the world.

casey ryder: Sure. Like you said, I own a fiber shop in Portland, Maine. I've owned it for seven and a half years. And I worked for the previous owner for three years. And she was just getting ready to retire and let me take the reins for a full year to get the feel for it.

ash alberg: Oh my god. That's ideal. [Chuckles.] casey ryder: Yeah, really ideal.

Yeah, I feel a lot of my ... a lot of what has led to where I am today is just some blind ignorance. [Both giggle.]

ash alberg: Sometimes that's useful.
casey ryder: ... and like excitement around fiber arts in general.

ash alberg: I feel like it's useful to have some ignorance in terms of what the actual business side of it is, because by the time you're like stuck in it and you're like, oh shit, okay, I guess this is what we're doing.

casey ryder: Yeah, exactly. Like tax season. I'm like, oh, oops. I don't know what I'm doing. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Every time. I know. I just like ... all the finances stuff. I feel like, especially those of us who come into it because we actually just, we love fiber arts and then the business is just a thing. You like pick up little bits and bobs from other people, but the actual gravity of like legal documents and taxes and like employees ...I'm currently like trying to pull all that shit together.

And I'm like, I don't even know how to write a good job description. Nevermind like making sure that I'm actually doing everything legally and by the books and like, where do I find that information and how do I do that?

casey ryder: Yeah. It's a lot. And yeah, before COVID I was working with a business mentor to figure out if I could hire somebody. And I was like getting to the point of writing job descriptions, which was super helpful because the advisor was like, “I need you to write all of the tasks that you do.”

And I was like, oh shit, holy shit. That's a lot. And then divvy out what I wanted to keep doing and what I wanted to assign to somebody else. Yeah. And then COVID. So I'm doing it all. [Ash laughs.] Yeah.

So my shop is ... when I first bought the business, it was mostly like spinning, weaving, felting, some dyeing, and we ... the business space used to be right next to a yarn shop in Portland, so we didn't do a lot of yarn or knitting. We just kinda referred people down the street.

ash alberg: Yeah.

casey ryder: But since I purchased the business, I've slowly started adding yarns. [Ash chuckles.] And then I started working with Cashmere People Yarns in 2017. So that's okay, now I am a legit yarn shop also, which is, it's all, it's a whole other thing, like ...

ash alberg: Just like the knowledge and quite ... I can't imagine fielding ... like weavers and hand spinners are like their own thing and then knitters, but like depending ... You carry really beautiful yarns that also have like appropriate price points. So for the most part, the people who are going to come, but you still have people who like show up and they just they want to learn and they want to learn with good quality products, which is ideal.

But now you're like navigating, how do I like introduce somebody to this world? [Chuckles.]

casey ryder: Yes. And I'm like, oh now I should probably have some knitting classes and like crochet classes. So yeah, that's been, that's been a really fun part of my business too, because I know I can't teach all of the classes, so it's nice to find the instructors who are passionate about what they do and bring them in.

Yeah. I'm looking forward to having classes again. Actually, today is the day in Maine where people are just like, you can go into places unmasked ...

ash alberg: I heard that!

casey ryder: It's a whole, that's a whole other conversation. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: It makes me so nervous saying my friends in the states right now ‘cause it's just like fuck like we're just not even like it's ... So we're recording this on a long weekend in Manitoba for me. And we're literally on ... through the long weekend because there have always been case surges following any sort of holiday, we're in full lock down, not only inside, but also outside.

Like you are not actually allowed to gather with humans outside of your household, or if you live alone, then you're your single bubble person inside right now or outside right now. [Chuckles.] And we're at about the same, like we're slower than the states for rollout of vaccines. But the percentage of people who are vaccinated is around the same as a lot of States ...

casey ryder: That's so bonkers.
ash alberg: ... that are now just like you don't need any masks! Businesses,

you're on your own! I'm just like, oh no.

casey ryder: That's the part that's like, oh, okay. So now you're passing the buck to me to make this decision. I guess I'm going to be cautious and still ...

ash alberg: And then deal with all of the people who are going to be really shitty about it, because ...

casey ryder: Yeah.
ash alberg: Apparently people have not learned during the course of COVID

how to manage their mental health.
casey ryder: Yeah. Yeah.
I'm hopeful. Oh, a birdie just slipped through the window!

I'm pretty hopeful about my customer base being fairly understanding about me asking folks to still wear masks and just take it month by month and just ...

ash alberg: Totally. And see what the data is from places other than just like just the CDC. That's also my thing is that I think pre ... probably pre-Trump, I would've like fairly comfortably trusted the CDC and maybe this is just like a general indication that we should never only trust a single source of anything, but especially the way that at the beginning of the pandemic, they were just like, oh no, like actually PPE for like frontline staff, there's a PPE shortage and that has nothing to do with our decision, but it's totally okay for you to now go a day with all of the exact same PPE instead of the old rules, the day before that were changing every single time you go into rooms. And now it's the same. People are being like, no, it's okay.

Like we're ...
casey ryder: It’s fine. Everything's fine. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: You can totally get away without wearing a mask, even though we're currently dealing with like plateauing of the vaccinations. And so we're like dangling this carrot of “You can go back to your regular life.” There's no correlation between both.

casey ryder: In Maine, they like ... maybe a couple of weeks ago they incentivized vaccinations with free fishing license, free hunting license.

ash alberg: I would do that!
casey ryder: It was a very directed ... yeah, like free tickets to like a baseball

game. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: God. That's so funny. I also, okay, there's the one state, I can't remember which one, where they were like, we will literally give a million dollars. We're doing a random draw. And I'm like, and I think they had 10 different, like they were going to do 10 million dollar draws.

You could instead ... like, yes, a million dollars is amazing. And clearly you're like trying to convince people to come and get this vaccination, but you know what also you could do, if you were going to give a million dollars, split that into 10 x 100,000 ... like a hundred thousand dollars is not chump change.

casey ryder: Or just like basic income. Let's just have a basic, let's just have a basic income.

ash alberg: There's that too, but I feel like that's not enough incentive for people. [Casey chuckles.] But yeah, it's just it's fucking wild to me where it's like here ... like even just like the thought process of we need to incentivize people via capitalism and we're going to do it in the most capitalist way too where we’re like ...

casey ryder: It’s so gross.

ash alberg: instead of spreading it out around, like here's a reasonable amount of money that will make a massive difference in your life and is just not a million dollars. [Chuckles.]

And so I'm just spreading it out around a ...

casey ryder: There are only a chosen amount of winners in this scenario. And a lot of losers that will be vaccinated. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yes. my Like I wonder if they were just like a hundred grand is not enough for people to want to get vaccinated.

casey ryder: Oh my god.
ash alberg: That's weird mentality to be part of.
casey ryder: I like for ... I don't know, like a hundred bucks? ash alberg: Right?
casey ryder: That's, you know, like ...

ash alberg: I was going to get the vaccine regardless that if you gave me a hundred bucks at the same time, I'd be like, sweet, thank you. [Casey laughs.] Just wild

casey ryder: Oh my god. Today is my like official ... I'm officially two weeks past my second vaccine.

ash alberg: Oh, that's so exciting. Congrats! casey ryder: Thank you. It feels great.

ash alberg: That's so exciting. Yeah. It's so funny ‘cause it's like getting vaccinated is ... we've completely derailed this conversation and I'm totally fine with it.

casey ryder: It's okay.

ash alberg: The vaccine, like I got my first shot at Pfizer and the data seems to be that ... and in my family we have some folks who are fairly high up with infectious disease, et cetera. So like the conversations we'd already been having with them and then the studies that seem to be coming out is that there being a longer delay specifically because Pfizer has such a high like rate of immunity to begin with, then the longer chunk of time you have in between seems to be better.

And it's literally just because the vaccines are so new and the virus is so new that we don't know how long the vaccines are going to last based on the current variants that are in the same. So it's okay this’ll last you a little longer and we don't know what 10 months down the road is going to look like anyways.

casey ryder: Yeah.

ash alberg: But yeah, it's like, it doesn't actually change the way that you like go about your day to day. Literally it's just like slightly less anxiety going about the bits that you did too.

casey ryder: God. [Groan-laughs.]

ash alberg: It’s wild. Anyway. [Laughs.]

casey ryder: I don't know what the first question was. What do I do?

ash alberg: I think, I feel like we covered it, your business. Casual People. So tell me a bit about how you got involved with Cashmere People Yarns.

casey ryder: Sure. Yeah. I was introduced to their business through another main business called Peace Fleece. So Peace Fleece is, was owned by this couple in in Maine. And they'd been in business for, I think like 30 years. And

when they started their business, they were sourcing wool from Russia and from the U.S., like Cold War, like ...

ash alberg: Oh that's so ... Wait, they, ‘cause they would have started not too long after the Cold War semi-ended?

casey ryder: Yes. Yes. So they're trying, they were trying to combine wool from these two places and be like, okay, let's remember that we're all humans and here's this product that is a combination of these two places and representing these two peoples and yeah.

So they source their wool from Russia and the U.S. and then when supply got ... I don't know, something got tricky with supply from Russia. They started sourcing their wool from the Navajo nation in the U.S. and a little bit of mohair from Texas and some non-native wool. And it was all, it's all always been processed by Harrisville Designs in New Hampshire.

So when they were getting ready to retire, and at that point Leba Brent who wrote the grant that funded the Kashmiri people yarns project had been in touch with Peter Haggerty who owned Peace Fleece. And so Peter had a little bit of their yarn on their website and Cashmere People Yarns was selling some of their yarn to an indie dyer, I think, in New Jersey, but they had no U.S. distributions.

And so Peter called me up one day and was like, “Can I come have some sit down and chat with you? Maybe we could have some tea?” and I'm like, Yeah, sure?” And he was, he just asked if I wanted to be a part of the project and be their U.S. distributor.

ash alberg: Oh my goodness.

casey ryder: And of course that would require me going there and meeting the women in person. And it would all be paid for by this grant. And I was like, hmmmm, OK!

ash alberg: Oh my god. Yeah.
casey ryder: Yes, dangle that carrot, the chance to travel halfway across the

world.
ash alberg: Yeah! That's so cool. On somebody else's dollar. [Chuckles.]

casey ryder: Exactly. Yeah.
So that's that's how I started. And yeah. And I've been doing wholesale trade

shows and just one, TNNA, and ... ash alberg: The big one.

casey ryder: Yeah, and trying to get into more retail trade shows like Vogue and yeah.

And then I'm just like cold calling potential shops that might want to carry it. But it's this, it's this really beautiful handspun, hand-dyed cashgora, which is, it's a cross between a cashmere-producing goat and a mohair-type goat that's like bred in the Pamir mountains, which is in the southern part of the country.

And yeah, it's a really, it's a really beautiful fiber and part of the grant, like trained the farmers to comb the goats instead of shear the goats. So that like results in fewer guard hairs and like a higher quality fiber. Yeah. And it's all handspun on these electric spinning wheels.

ash alberg: Oh my god!
casey ryder: They're big ones actually.

They had, they like hired a maker, just a person in Tajikistan to make these little ... they're big. The bobbins actually hold like almost a kilo of yarn.

ash alberg: Oh my god!
casey ryder: Yeah, so they can just go. And they work in these kinda tricked

out shipping containers.
ash alberg: Yes.
casey ryder: With solar panels on top? ash alberg: Coooooool.

casey ryder: Which is like. The electricity in the country is not super reliable all day long. So there's ...

ash alberg: That would be certainly unreliable except for like maybe certain seasons of the year, but like mostly ...

casey ryder: Yeah, like the solar doesn't cover all of their elect-- like the spinning electric needs, but some of it, it helps. Yeah.

Yeah, I was there in March of 2017 and I was staying, at one point we were staying in the capital, in Dushanbe, and staying at this little hotel. And at one point the electricity was just off for three hours every day, just because ...

ash alberg: Just because they needed to conserve it or they just didn't have any?

casey ryder: They need to conserve it, which is, oh, like this is a thing in other places. Like it's a totally, it was one of those experiences where you come home and you're like, I have nothing to complain about.

ash alberg: Yeah. A hundred percent. casey ryder: Like we have ...

ash alberg: Especially where it's just like, the infrastructure grid is just like not stable. Which also happens in different parts of both of our countries as well, like ...

casey ryder: Totally.
ash alberg: But yeah, that it's just like, in major cities is just, this is the norm

and the grid is not stable enough for like X, Y and Z reasons.

So in order to make sure that the hospitals are able to run things, then the hotels you can do without it for three hours and you'll be fine.

casey ryder: And it's true. You will be fine. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, that's a big part of it too. And it's such an interesting thing to try. Like I think, travel is something that comes with a lot of privilege. A lot of, most of the time, but I also think is just so fucking necessary for everybody because you learn that your ... like, obviously not just that, like

exposure to other people reminds us that like other humans have value as well in the world ...

casey ryder: There are other people living their lives in other places.
ash alberg: Exactly.
casey ryder: It's a different life than yours. And they're like happy and ... ash alberg: Totally happy.

casey ryder: Doing their thing.

ash alberg: But it's also, it's like reminding you as well, that like your way of life is not the only way that works and that makes people really happy. And the, also that the climate plays a big role in the way that we live our lives. And yeah, it's just ... and it's so funny too, because sometimes you come in and you're like why would you not want this thing that somebody else is offering?

I find it, like in Eastern Europe, the way that so many of the smaller nations have just refused to join the EU and the EU was like, “Why wouldn't you want to join us??” and like the Czech Republic and Poland are both just, “We already don't like ... we're, our currency is not worth that much. And us joining the EU doesn't actually help us because we don't have enough clout to actually have any ... So all we're going to do is now we're stuck in this trade situation where our currency doesn't amount to our people being able to get enough stuff. And we're not going to have any say at the table, so why would we bother joining you? We're fine.”

casey ryder: Yep. Yeah.

It was also when I was traveling there, I was with Leba, who had been there many times at that point. And she said to me to be mindful of how much I share about my own life, because the way that I get to live my life is really unfamiliar. And also like ... can be upsetting, like that I got to live by myself or ... or confusing. Upsetting or confusing. Yeah.

Yeah. It was super interesting. And it was right after the Women's March in D.C. I had gone to the Women's March in D.C.

ash alberg: Yeah.

casey ryder: So I, we did talk a little bit about that there with them. And they were all just surprised or just like that ... they would not ever be able to speak out against their government.

ash alberg: Yes.
casey ryder: Like they would, it's not okay to do that.
ash alberg: It's fucking wild, but then it's also ...
casey ryder: People just disappear if they do that. They're ...

ash alberg: A hundred percent. And it's also like the sense of like stability that we have is so fucking fragile too. Which I think Canadians watching the States over the last few years is just ... I also listen to way too much Rachel Maddow. I'm like, I hear way too many details of like how these things built up.

And then combining that with my own knowledge of how Nazi Germany turned into Nazi Germany, right? Where it wasn't like suddenly 1939 came along and they were just like, “Huzzah!” But literally it was more than a decade before, but the party coming in 1933 at a point where it was like, all these people felt disenfranchised, they felt like they weren't being heard.

And then just slowly snipping away at different groups, individual rights, starting with queers, starting with the disabled community. And then, and by the time, 1937, ’38, comes along. Now we can go after bigger communities, like the Jewish community in Germany, which wasn't a small community, but it was not the ... at that point they had ...

casey ryder: Already made this practice of ...

ash alberg: Exactly, and so many other people had already had ... they'd seen that, yes, we can get away with doing this to other people. So by the time we do it to a very large group, it's become common practice and we've taught people that you just ignore it and you just keep going.

And yeah. Seeing the same kind of shit happening now is more than a little terrifying not going to lie. [Laughs nervously.]

casey ryder: Yeah. Yup. Yup. [Both laugh uncomfortably.]

ash alberg: And then, yeah, Canada does similar shit, a hundred percent. It's just, yeah. There's like very specific cultural differences that gets really interesting. And I think a big part of it is that there's always people who are going to be like, we don't want to pay taxes for universal health care, but as a general rule, Canadians would like ... it would take so much for Canadians to be like, yeah, actually we don't want this anymore.

And we're going to like completely change our system. And I feel like universal healthcare and similar social safety nets, like having them as a baseline in a country creates a collective baseline as well of care. Even if you, as an individual are like super fucking selfish, it, as like a whole, there's some acknowledgement of ...

casey ryder: Take care of each other!

ash alberg: Exactly. And even if the way that you're thinking about it is literally, “We take care of each other because someday I'm going to want that or I’ll make use of that.” But there’s ...

casey ryder: Exactly, if it's like selfishly motivated, like it's still like a thing. Yeah.

ash alberg: It’s still there. Yeah. So I don't know. Yeugh. [Laughs.]

casey ryder: I'm just going to, oh yeah ...

ash alberg: Jackson went for a wander. Just double check.

casey ryder: Making sure he’s not like getting into trash or anything.

ash alberg: Yup. Yup. They're so funny, they just wander away and you're like, are you ... and it doesn't matter how old they get. I'm still ...

casey ryder: It's too quiet. Something's ...
ash alberg: Something’s going on. [Both laugh.]

casey ryder: there is like a sense, like there is a little spidey sense, like in my body of, “Something's wrong” and there's like nothing ... it is, that's a thing. That's a thing for sure.

ash alberg: Actually, let's use that to take us into the next question, which is ... and I need to actually read it properly. What's your relationship with ritual and magic and spidey senses?

casey ryder: [Chuckles.] My relationship with ritual and magic is ... well, the first thing that I think of is ... how do I say this? I feel like I experience magic when I'm with other people. And it's not even necessarily an intentional, like, we're gathering as witchy folks. It's like a setting thing. Often, like outside, in nature, around bodies of water, watching the stars or being around fire, and just or being in ... sometimes in being in like maker circles.

And sometimes it is, has been intentional. I'm thinking of one of my friends who hosted New Year’s Eve parties and being super intentional about writing things that we wanted to let go of, writing things that we wanted to invite into our lives, and then like collectively burning the things that we wanted to shed.

She called it beckon and shed. Yeah. And it's just like the sense of more, like the sense that we are bigger than we know. There are bigger things going on. Sometimes I just feel like this connection to other people's spirits that feels familiar in a way that's like older than me. Like we've been here before.

And it's not like ... I don't, it ... those moments just hit me. I don't feel like I seek them out necessarily. One practice that I have here in Portland when it's not winter time, or like when the timing allows it, ‘cause I close my shop at five. I like to go watch the full moon rise. And it's, yeah, it has become a really sweet practice.

I just go for a walk. I try to leave my phone at home and just breathe and walk and wait, and just like watching the, watching it come up over the horizon. I get ...

ash alberg: I love that.

casey ryder: [Chuckles.] ... and I usually just hang out for a bit. Sometimes I do some stretching. And yeah.

I feel yeah, a giddiness with watching the moon and its various phases. But I don't do any journaling about it or I'm not like looking at charts or anything. I'm not opposed to those things, it's just not a part of my life, right now.

I have had practices of drawing tarot cards. But I'm not like trained in any way. It's just, it has been a nice way to start a day or end a day or work through some issue that I'm dealing with. And just like a starting place of reflection about what's going on.

And I'll mention too that early in my life, when I was like in middle school and through like maybe my freshman or sophomore year of college, I was part of a fundamentalist Christian Church.

My headphones unplugged for a second. So that's it's like own level of, I won't call it, witch witchy witchcraft [Ash laughs] but it is ritualistic. And there is a comfort in those rituals. There was a lot of bullshit going on in that church. And I've not gone back to those practices since I left, but it was really hard to leave because of those like ... that like familiarity and connection with something bigger than yourself, with this like larger community that ...

I don't know, it's, I'm still finding my way back to that in a different way. And yeah. I think that ... actually part of your ... I'm hosting a cwtch knit-along. [Laughs.] Yeah.

ash alberg: Which is delightful. [Laughs.]
casey ryder: Yeah. And I did a post the other day on Instagram asking folks if

they wanted to share any of their rituals.

And somebody mentioned like starting their morning by lighting a candle and thinking about the people in their lives that maybe needed some extra help or just good thoughts. And it reminded me a lot of prayer.

ash alberg: Yes.

casey ryder: And for reflecting back on prayer in my own life, it was like a way to process what's going on, like what was going on in my life to this like greater power, like giving it to this greater power, a way to shed it.

ash alberg: Yes.

casey ryder: Yeah.
ash alberg: Let go of some of the control of it.

I feel like that's where ... this is my problem with organized religion across the board, all organized religions, is that the ... like humans, we are, we're a communal species. We are a species that looks for ritual. We are a species that looks for patterns. Like we're literally hardwired to do that.

And we have built religion and faith and spirituality and practice throughout all of human history. And it changes in terms of what is the kind of overall thing that people are believing in or following or whatever. But it is a practice that is clearly embedded in our DNA.

And my issue with organized religion always is that it takes this fundamental need that humans have to connect and to find comfort with one another through a shared process of patterns in marking the important points of life, including moments of grief or moments of pure joy or moments of commitment in different ways and manipulates it to such a fucked up extent because it doesn't want to risk losing those members. And it's this like scarcity tactic that if you leave ... and like we see it even, we see it most explicitly with things like cults and with things like the extreme sex within religions, right? Where, if you leave us, we are shunning, you are never coming back.

And it's this like really fucked up way of holding people to something which may not be serving them particularly well, and if you have the wrong people in power makes it even more unhealthy. And it's, so many people when they do leave those things, they end up with like lifelong religious trauma. And there's not this nuance, which has also, I always find it fascinating when like queers will leave, or like for a while they will need to leave, whatever church or mosque or synagogue or whatever they were involved in.

And there's so much fear of losing their family, especially, attached to it. And then they somehow come around to navigating and building a life again with this religious practice that also caused them to lose so much for ... whether it was a short period of time or a long period of time and cause, and weaponizes itself against queer bodies on an ongoing basis.

And I always find it fascinating when people are able to look at something like that caused and continues to cause so much strife to one part of their community or, and/or to themselves personally, and find a way of reconciling and figuring

out, how do I ... like I still value this enough that I want to figure out a way of keeping it.

And I think maybe that's like where, when you like allow religion to release a little bit, regardless of what the religion is, then that is where people are able to come back home. Like it's not necessarily that they go back to the exact place of worship that they started at, but they are able to come back to the general faith itself because the general faith itself does not actually wish them the kind of harm that the people at this one specific spot do.

And. Yeah. Like I, I have zero trust in organized religion because I have zero trust in humanity in general. [Both laugh.] The Sagittarius in me is like the universe’ll figure it out. That humans are going to fuck it up, but the universe will figure it out. But it's, I, I do find it hopeful that there are people who are able to navigate those things and figure them out.

But for myself, I'm like, I'm gonna just stick with my own little practice over here and talk to my plants because I trust my plants.

casey ryder: Yep. And your plants. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. And I think that like having a business allows for creation of communities lots in your life. If you build it, they will come sort of situation.

ash alberg: Yes, you get to set up those boundaries, right? Like whenever people have like really shitty customers, I'm like, that's not necessarily on them. Like those people exist in the world. Your boundaries need to be stronger.

casey ryder: You can ask them to leave. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: You can tell them to fuck right off, which is what I do. And it's I'm much happier with my business because then when there's like an actual crisis, which happens because life, then I can be like, y'all, I need to ... I'm not going to be here for a month.

I just need to get shit done. I'm sorry. And they're like, we love you. We support you. It's okay. By the way we're going to make purchases while you are busy, because we know that you need to also still buy food.

casey ryder: Eat! [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly.
casey ryder: That's all I really want. I want to be able to live in a home and eat

some food and take care of my body and ... ash alberg: And my dog’s body.

casey ryder: And my dog's body. Yeah. Yeah. I and another ritual in my life at this point in like over a year into COVID is I've been hosting crafternoons every Sunday. So that is like my church now.

ash alberg: I love it! [Laughs.]

casey ryder: It's been really sweet. I make a playlist, for an hour and a half long playlist. And we just do a Zoom gathering. Everyone's microphones are muted ‘cause I just, that's the level that I can handle.

ash alberg: [Chuckles.] That's fair.
casey ryder: ... And there's like a chat box, so people can write like Zoom chat,

which is fun.

It's like game. It's like I'm reliving my early high school like AIM chat rooms, like ... [giggles.]

ash alberg: Oh, I like this plan a lot though ‘cause we have to, I have to start up the Creative Coven Community’s monthly chat. I'm like ... you committing to a weekly thing is ... I am so impressed and I do not have that bandwidth. Like I have one day a month. I have bandwidth for that.

And I was trying to figure out, I was like, how, I don't necessarily want to talk to people for a whole hour. I also don't like ... I'm really bad at leaving, like quietness in groups. I like, in person, certainly with like with my humans a hundred percent, like that's doable. But when it's like groups of particularly strangers who don't necessarily know each other ...

casey ryder: Also virtually, it’s like ...

ash alberg: Yes. That's the bit. ‘Cause you can't just feel the energy of the group in the room and like navigate it accordingly, right?

There's a difference, there's a very palatable difference between a comfortable silence versus an awkward silence. And whether you need to break that silence or not. And it's just, it's hard to tell that on Zoom. So I like this method of, we're going to have music, stay muted. If you want to chat to each other, you can also then like private chat to each other, which is nice.

casey ryder: Totally. And there's also, you can also just turn your video on and go, go over there and do your sewing. And just know that you're with other people doing their thing. It's ... it's a nice ...

I know that a few people have said, have mentioned this is the time that they work on the projects that they have, like put in time out, or they're like actually finishing things because they're, they know they're going to commit to this two hours on a Sunday of sitting down and doing the thing.

This past Sunday, there were a lot of finished objects and it was just like so exciting! Because you’re ...

ash alberg: Oh, that's so ...
casey ryder: Like we're with each other every week and we see what we're

working on. So everybody's, “Ooo!” like cheering each other on. ash alberg: That’s so fun.

casey ryder: Yeah. And I also started a little over, I don't know, like maybe seven or eight months ago. I decided to start a high spinning circle.

ash alberg: [Chuckles.] I see you talk about this on Instagram and I love it. I do not partake because of my brain, but I love that because I feel like it would be a lot of fun. I feel like if your brain works properly with it, it would be a lot of fun.

casey ryder: Yeah. I think it works. It works for some people and it, and like people who use cannabis, like it's, some people are like, yeah, this is great. If you use cannabis and you spin, this is like the thing that we are doing.

ash alberg: Talk about a niche.
casey ryder: Totally niche. [Ash cackles.]

And I kept it like really, I only posted about it on Instagram stories. I didn't advertise it on my website. I didn't put it in my grid.

And I also, like ... people would come through the shop and I knew they were spinners. So I'd be like, hey, do you use cannabis? Or this is going to be maybe a personal question, but I'm going to ask you. And half the people were like, “yeah!” Oh great, ...

ash alberg: That is fucking hilarious to me.

casey ryder: ... you should come to this thing if you want. [Both laugh.] Some people who use cannabis don't want to be on a video. That's a little too much for them. But Yeah, I recently decided to just put it out in the world, like on my website. It's just, you can come if you want. Like just really just coming out as a cannabis user, which felt great.

It's ... this is a thing that helps a lot of people.

ash alberg: And has a lot of medicinal uses like across the boards and is, oh my god, we could go on a whole ... they could be an entire podcast series about how white people have fucked up cannabis. Yeah, exactly. Meanwhile, like people have known for a really long time.

This works a lot better for a lot of things and is like way less addictive, but also doesn't work for everybody. Like I know for myself that I like, there’s ... I don't use it, but I also don't need to use it. I have other things that I use if I were to use ...

casey ryder: It's not your medicine.

ash alberg: No and which is also like, my whole thing with plants is you can tell if they're a friend of yours or not based on the way that your body reacts to it, specifically the smell.

So like, whenever I'm bringing like new herbs in, I'm like, okay, is this going to be like a buddy of mine? Or is it going to be for somebody else? And like lemon balm, if my anxiety is spiking, I just increase my lemon balm and take massively, along with things. I usually don't need to take my valerian, but like motherwort depending on what's going on, like lots of different aroma therapies. Vetiver for grounding. Using ...

casey ryder: Oh, vetiver. ash alberg: Oh, it's so good. casey ryder: I love vetiver.

ash alberg: But like rose, for example, is a plant that like ... wild roses and I sometimes get along and sometimes yeah, I want you around my body right now. But for the most part, rose is absolutely not something that is useful for me or that I jive with in any sort of way.

So like often when I'm like, look, I'm like, I don't want to make a tincture. I feel lazy and/or I want it now, I don't want to wait the six weeks for it to macerate. I'm like looking for different things and all of the heart ones use rose, because it is generally something that is very much for any sort of heart healing or like broken heart. Like all of it. There is a reason that it is consistently used in most ways.

And I'm like, no, thank you. I will take yarrow instead. I will take rose hips instead, but like I, or I'll take hawthorn or I pick other slightly thorny creatures to be my friends. [Chuckles.]

casey ryder: Is there like a ... I'm just thinking too about intention with herbs and like this, like ... like a conversation with the plant. I need you for this.

ash alberg: Okay?
casey ryder: Is this okay? Yeah.

I haven't gone there, but that seems pretty, pretty natural. No pun intended. [Ash chuckles.] To just have a conversation about it with this other living thing.

ash alberg: That's the thing. Like plants can, they can scream their feelings sometimes, but like you are talking with them on a ... it's a different kind of a conversation than you would have even like with our dogs. Like I will literally just stare Willow in the eyeballs and be like, “You're being a shithead” and she'll be like, “Yeah, okay.” And she knows it.

And depending on her mood, then she'll continue to being a shithead or not. But like with plants, like if I like hold it and I say, you're a shithead, have a reaction,

but also that ... I don't think I would ever tell a plant it was being a shithead, to be fair. [Casey laughs.] Like most of the time it's yeah. I dunno.

Just even just in terms of like harvesting or walking into a space, like knowing whether or not it's okay to walk in an area especially areas covered with moss. Anytime I'm going, like sometimes it's yes, you're like happy for me to be here and like very comforting and cushiony.

And this is a thing. And other times it's excuse me, you're stepping on me. And I'm like, I am so sorry. I will find like the spots in between where you are growing. Yeah.

casey ryder: Oh, wow. [Ash laughs.] Yeah, I love it.

ash alberg: Yeah. But yeah, cannabis and I, just it's not ... Willow actually uses it because it helps her calm down. But yeah, for me it's ... I just use other things instead but I would also probably be recommending somebody try it before they try something like opioids or like sleeping pills and shit like that. Right? Like ...

casey ryder: Yeah, yes. It does seem to ... different strains have different effects, but I feel often like I get into my body more and out of my head.

ash alberg: Yeah.
casey ryder: Which, combined with spinning, is pretty nice.

ash alberg: That would be ... yeah, ‘cause spinning in and of itself is so meditative. Like I can go just into a spinning hole for eight hours straight and come out of it and be like, oh shit, where’d the time go?

casey ryder: Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know. I feel ... when I combine music with it, like music is also this really special thing, also feels like greater than ourselves. Or like maybe not greater than ourselves, maybe that, but also just like super basic to our humanity.

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah. A hundred percent.

casey ryder: Like we're just like getting to the most basic things. Spinning yarn, hello.

ash alberg: Yeah.
casey ryder: That feels ... it is s part of our human history. We have to make,

we had to make yarn to clothe ourselves.

ash alberg: And like you look at all ... like the three fates, right? There's just consistently throughout the weaving of cloth, the making of cloth and the spinning of fibers and like that is so embedded in folklore, across history. And yeah, that, like that whole practice in and of itself of getting high, setting in with your spinning and listening to music, to me that sounds sorta like church

casey ryder: It's like, you're turning off everything else. ash alberg: Yeah!
That's really lovely. It's such an embodied practice.

casey ryder: Yeah. I feel like, I also like when I commit to doing a thing I'm like in it, it's like I ... and I do, I love doing it too, but it's okay, now this is my practice. And I'm, this is what I'm doing. Yeah. That being said, I did decide to make crafternoons the first and third Sunday. So we're ... I’m like reducing my crafternoon days for the summertime, just because I've got summer things.

ash alberg: Yeah. Okay. So this actually, I ... as we were just talking, I was like, oh, I want to ask Casey this. And this is the perfect question or perfect segue, which is: so like you've taken some really beautiful practices and shared them with your community, which as a biz owner is like a really nice way realistically of just like branding yourself if we're going to look at it within that, like you're calling in a very specific group of people to become your people, but is there ... do you feel like there are certain limits to what practices you want to share with your audience? Do you feel like it's a necessary part of running your business in the way that you want your business to function?

Are there downsides and like comparatively with the upsides of making these rituals part of, not just your own personal practice, but like sharing them with a wider audience who may or may not ... we're in this like awkward thing, especially with online world of people building up weirdly intimate relationships with us that we may or may not like ... nevermind consenting to them, but we may or may not even be aware that somebody has built up that intense of a relationship with us.

casey ryder: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it ... like sharing the practices feels pretty natural to me. I am a heart on my sleeve sort of person. I think I'm, I can be an over-sharer and when you go there with people who are also your customers, you're opening up ... you're literally opening up yourself to these other humans, which I haven't experienced too much burnout from that sort of situation.

Although it does, it is like there. There's ... I think I get to choose how much I share, like I can be maybe I don't want to say I'm oversharing. I'm just like sharing myself,

ash alberg: And you get to curate and control just how ... like I also say that where I'm like, I'm for sure an over-sharer compared to like others, but I have, especially over the last few years, I have learned to curate my oversharing in terms of, “I will let you know that my mental health is shit today and I will maybe let you know a little bit about why it's shit and what I am doing to manage it as I navigate through the day.”

Because I think that's important, especially teaching and like leading other folks into small biz worlds, it's “this is how I'm navigating being a human and doing this at the same time.” But also you don't necessarily get to know, and you don't need to know the very specifics of like, why I got to this point.

casey ryder: Yeah, exactly. And you get to ... yeah, you get to choose how much you share and who you share with. And maybe you share more than you wanted to in hindsight. Like you get to, it's hard to say what you need or set boundaries with people.

But then you get to practice doing that. If you go a little too far with ... ash alberg: True.
casey ryder: ... what you've shared.
ash alberg: It’s true.

casey ryder: I, for the most part, feel pretty good about my level of sharing. I don't know. It's weird actually, when I first was working for this, the previous owner, I was in my early twenties and I remember having this thought like, “How can you be friends with your customers?”

That's just a boundary that I wouldn't cross. ash alberg: [Cackles.] And now ...

casey ryder: And whoops, oopsies! [Both laugh.] Because people are just people. Yes, we're running a business, but, and yes, people are like, people are literally supporting you by purchasing the things that you sell. That's cool.

ash alberg: Yeah!
casey ryder: For some folks, that's all they want that, and then for other folks,

like people, like you said, we need communities.

And if you've created a space where somebody feels comfortable, like being more open with you, then that's cool. That's cool. You've created a space that someone wants to share more of themselves with you. And if you're able to hold that, awesome. And if you're not, then maybe you have to reassess and set some boundaries.

ash alberg: Yeah. And I think the nice thing is that we can always adjust those as we need. And do it in a kind way. I think that's maybe the bit where ...

casey ryder: It's not personal. It's not necessarily personal. It's just like ...

ash alberg: No, it's literally just like having compassion and like our own capacities for how many people we can have compassion for and hold that space for actively changes for all of us.

And I feel like COVID especially has made that very clear, but there is still, you can still lovingly set those boundaries and lovingly maintain those boundaries with people. And also if it's, “I can't hold this space for you, but like I know of this other thing that might be able to help you” or, and for the folks who like, that's just really not a thing that they will ever accept then it's, it is ... I strongly believe that it is a sign of love to maintain boundaries.

Like not only state them, but then maintain them so that we know what the rules of play are here. And I'm not going to dick you around by being inconsistent with those things.

casey ryder: Yeah. Yeah. I feel, talking about holding space virtually or in person, it is work. It is, it is work

ash alberg: Yes. So much work.

casey ryder: It's emotional work.

It's ... yeah. You're navigating all of these different personalities and you want to make sure everybody feels safe and important because they are! [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: Yes. Yes! And I think that's why I love the way that you're doing those crafternoons and I am a hundred percent going to steal that plan of keeping everyone on mute and ‘cause it's like, for me, I come from grassroots activism long before I was ever doing this shit. And it's like, when I teach, I also come from years and years of theater.

So teaching was always second nature to me by the time I came into textile world in any sort of real capacity and learning how to navigate online spaces in a way of like, how do we maintain boundaries for others? And how do we maintain safe space for others is very much for me rooted in the same way that I was navigating it back when I was doing theater workshops.

And back when I was doing, like sexual violence trainings and shit like that, where it's like consent is and maintaining safe space for everyone is an ongoing thing. And it is different online versus in person because in person, again if you're attuned, then you can feel the energy in a space and like step in as needed.

It is harder to do that online. And so I think it's important for us to recognize what are our own capacities? What do we have the ability to do? And it's why like for me and the community, I was like, I'm not going to have ... and also with my online courses, like there is no classroom aspect.

There's no interaction with one another. There's no “let's have ongoing comment threads” and things because I cannot be awake 24/7 to be monitoring those things and making sure that they stay safe. And I already have to pay enough attention with that on social media spaces. And there's a reason that I don't really do anything on Facebook anymore.

Like on Instagram, if shit were to really hit the fan and it got to the point where I needed to block too many comments or trolls came in or whatever then you

can at least shut off comments and my block game is strong and it came in useful in 2019. And, but it's ... I think a lot of businesses and for folks who are running like small businesses and they’re heart-centered and they want to offer as much as possible and create the sense of community, but also where they don't come from a background of recognizing that part of creating community space is taking responsibility for how that community space functions and safety of people in that community space.

Then they just get told oh yeah, you should start a Facebook group or, oh yeah, you should have a classroom where people can be interacting with each other and all of these things. And if you don't have ... if I had a team of people stationed in different times zones where I could be like, yeah, okay, we can guarantee that 24/7 there's somebody monitoring these spaces, then that would maybe be a different conversation to be having.

But I'm like at this point, it's me. And even if I had a VA, I'm not going to put that on them because they also need to sleep. And if I'm handing over social media shit to them, they're getting all of it. I don't want it, you deal with it.

casey ryder: Yep. Yeah.

ash alberg: So it's, it's okay, we're going to come together once a month on zoom. That is how you connect with one another. That's how you communicate and spend time and spend ... if you want to have that as part of your experience, this is the container in which we do that.

And I really love your idea of part of that container in order to keep that safety is if you want to connect with each other, cool, use the chat box, you can privately be messaging each other if you want to like really connect with somebody in particular and you don't want other people like weighing in on your conversation, but we don't have to worry about somebody who says something that then triggers somebody else that like, we, you wouldn't know that it was going to be a trigger, but now it is.

casey ryder: Right, and now the whole thing has become something else that you didn't intend.

ash alberg: Exactly. Exactly.
casey ryder: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Having ... sometimes we just want to be with people, and it doesn't matter if we have like verbal communication. I think that, for me sitting, like listening to music with other people is so my jam, like live music, I cannot wait until I like feel good going to see live music again.

I don't need to be talking with you if this other like beautiful thing is happening and experiencing it together.

ash alberg: Oh my god. A hundred percent. I just I think of Winnipeg ... casey ryder: I just add some crafting in there.

ash alberg: Yes. Oh man. I just, I think of Winnipeg Folk Fest, which is, also, if you partake in certain things, then it becomes a different thing. But for me, I'm like, no, like it's multiple days in a row of incredible music from around the globe and you get to hang out in different fields.

And at the end of the night, you like choose between the two big stages of who do you want to dance to right now? And then you're just dancing and watching A Tribe Called Red live is like total magic, complete magic. And you just like ... there, it's not even like a matter of engaging individually with other humans at that point.

You're just like a body moving in a mass of bodies and it ...

casey ryder: 100%. That's ... I just get chills. [Ash laughs.] Like dancing for me is also I would say ritualistic. I don't do it like with any ... I'm going to do it at this time, this place. [Ash giggles.]

But if music is playing, I actually wrote myself a note and put it on my refrigerator that says, when was the last time you danced? [Ash makes an empathetic “mmm” sound.] Because it is such a boost to my like spirit.

ash alberg: Yes. Oh my god.
casey ryder: And I, you can just put some music on, dance in your kitchen

Yeah. Like you'll feel better. [Chuckles.]

ash alberg: A hundred percent. Yeah. Yes, actually though, it's like, when I'm in like a really shitty mood, I have like playlists that are literally like “beat the

cranky pants.” Like I put that on and I dance in my fucking kitchen and I love that question because it's nonjudgmental.

It's not like, “you should dance right now.” It's just like, “when was the last time you danced?” Maybe want to do that? You'll feel really good, but ...

casey ryder: It's, “Have you had some water today? Did you sleep at all? Have you danced lately?” Yeah.

I was talking with some friends recently about like our anxiety and how it lives in our body. Like obviously like it's in our body and ...

ash alberg: But literally it's our nervous system being like ...
casey ryder: Move your body! Like you have to get, you have to like literally

move it out of you.

ash alberg: Yes, literally though, I, ‘kay, I have the most wild ... I've been doing EMDR therapy and it is so good, and I think everybody should do it.

casey ryder: What is it? What does it stand for?

ash alberg: My ... oh god. Good question. I forget. Eye movement reprocessing something maybe? But literally, so you ... my therapist describes it accurately as talk therapy is mowing the lawn: if you stay on top of it, yeah, it's great. Your lawn looks nice.

But EMDR is literally taking the weeds out at the roots. And so you're ... it's like through eye movement processing while you are like focusing on a target, whatever the distressing memory is, then you are reprogramming your nervous system to become less triggered by it.

And it is ... and then reprogramming in positive things. So whether it's reprogramming, like changing the memory, because memories are flexible and salient. And is it reprogramming the memory so that you now are remembering that distressing thing in a slightly different way that is less distressing.

And also recognizing that the distressing memory, you survived it and moved past it, or is it that you are like reprogramming negative messaging? So you

replay ... you deprogram the negative message that you had, which is maybe “I am not in control or I can't do this or I am not lovable,” dah dah dah.

And then you deprogram that and then reprogram in the positive opposite of it, of “I am in control. I can do this. I am fully capable. I am lovable as I am,” like, whatever. And it is so magical, but also some things are really deeply programmed into our bodies and they take out a long time to un-program.

And so things that are a little bit easier, it's literally just like your nervous system is just firing as you're moving through it. And you do your releases in the session. It feels really nice. And then you leave feeling great.

And then other times you're like trying to move it and it's oh, nope, there's no processing of things. I am just feeling a pain in this portion of my body. And now the pain is over here and now wait, my feet are just like, they feel like they're on fire. There is a lot of grief in my feet and it's fucking wild, but ...

casey ryder: This is a really big rock that is going to take a while to move.

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah. And so I finished this past week’s session and then went home and like during the session we like made some progress and I could feel things like moving and could feel like tingles in my body, starting to, which for me is a good thing because the tingles are literally my nervous system going like “Here we go, we're releasing.”

And in the session I could feel like the tingles start, but then they would get stuck in certain parts of my body. And I went home and literally the rest of the day, my nervous system was just on fire. And I realized kind of midway through the day. I was like, oh, wait a second. This is what my anxiety feels like when it spikes to a point that I can't function anymore.

And it's literally like your anxiety is ... it, like anxiety is shitty and debilitating, but it is also something that our body does as a way of trying to help us and as a way of trying to like, make us aware that there is something that we need to ... yeah, exactly. Like it's a safety measure that our body just decides to cycle through in a way that's not helpful.

But I was like, like I haven't completely figured out, what does this mean for me moving forward with my relationship with my anxiety? But recognizing that the processing and releasing of that has become something that is like so positive for me with therapy, because I know it's my body learning how to deal with it

and get like ... when there's the full like zhoup and it's out, that feels really good.

The problem is when it doesn't fully come out. It's like when something scares you, when you get a shiver up your spine and then the shiver like releases through your body and it's good and it's not as good when it gets stuck.

casey ryder: Stays. Yeah. Yep.
ash alberg: So yeah, recognizing the correlation of those two things was pretty

fucking wild and I dunno, we'll see how I ...

casey ryder: It's really, it's just so interesting how powerful our bodies are and how much we don't know about them.

ash alberg: Yup. Yup. I've also been like studying my herbalism and the nervous system is, there's your spinal column, which of course like your spinal cord has massive amounts of nerves running through it into the rest of your body. And then there's your enteric nervous system, which is your guts, so it's like your esophagus through your anus, like that whole situation.

Just as many nerves. So like literally it's why so many of us who are anxious also have gut issues. Like you're literally ... if your nervous system in your spine would be inflamed, instead it's your guts that are inflamed because it's trying to send you the same message.

casey ryder: Yeah.
ash alberg: It's wild.
casey ryder: Damn. [both laugh.]

ash alberg: Yup. Now whenever my guts are mad, I'm like, oh, there goes my enteric nervous system again. [Casey chuckles.] Just pretend it's that extra cookie that I ate that took my gluten over the edge.

casey ryder: Slide my glasses up my nose here. [Both chuckle.]

ash alberg: Yeah. That's wild. Okay. We've got on lots of tangents. That's been lovely. But I feel like we've also covered what role ritual plays in your life and has played in your life and the way that it takes its position in your biz. So now,

and I'm actually very interested, especially since you had that very long chunk of your life in a very specific kind of a community, then what is something that you wish you were told when you were younger about magic or witchcraft or ritual?

casey ryder: Oh my god. No pun intended. [Ash cackles.] ash alberg: I didn't even catch that one.

casey ryder: Mon dieu! Yeah. Yeah, I wish that I knew as a younger child that, I was more than I knew. I don't know. Like I wish that ... yeah. I've come to a space in my life where I'm still learning, obviously we're going to learn until we're no longer here in these bodies, hopefully.

But I wish I could have, I wish I could have ... part of me a large part of me wishes I could have skipped the fundamentalist Christian part of my life. And part of me knows that it was a valuable thing to experience and that I did, I needed it in my life at that point in my life.

But yeah. I wish that I had been taught that I was like a spirit and a body that came from somewhere else that we don't know about, which is like part of Christianity but it's a different ... it's a different take on that. And just like understanding that we're all the, we're all that. Like we’re all these like spirits in our bodies and we're all connected to one another.

And we're all part of the same thing. Including other living things and other ... not what we perceive as living things. Like we're all the same thing. And I don't know. [Sighs.]

Yeah, it's hard to imagine my seven-year-old, [slight audio distortion] eight-year-old self having that sort of knowledge ...

ash alberg: Yeah.
casey ryder: ... and like believing it? ash alberg: Yeah.

casey ryder: I hope that there are little children out there that believe those things [Ash laughs] in their guts. I feel like, we probably are, like, there probably are. Like kids know things on a different level ...

ash alberg: Kids are so much more attuned. Yeah. I feel ... like whenever I see kids, I'm like, especially like up to the age of six, I'm like your brains are just capturing so much more than the rest of us. Like I think, I feel like it's also why it's so much easier for kids to believe in magic because they are vibrating at a different frequency and their brains are buzzing and bringing in a different level.

Like I think the ... I heard studies where it was like our brain only processes 30% of the information that is coming into it because the other 70% is just too much information for our bodies to process, which I also think is why, when you're suddenly like vibrating at a different frequency, then you know, we're more likely to see ghosts or we're more likely to see different things. Like it's ... and maybe it's also why, if you're on certain types of substances and it is rewiring the way that your brain and body are functioning, that then we're seeing things, like maybe we're seeing things just that actually are there and are ... yeah.

casey ryder: We don’t see normally.

I think, yeah. I wish that, I wish that, I wish that I, and we all were respected for what we are as children and as people. And then I wish that what was your question? What do I wish that I was told? I wish that I wasn't told some things as a child. I wish I wasn't told “You are this, you are that, this is like how you act, this is how you're expected to act because you're, because you're female” or because whatever.

ash alberg: Yeah. A hundred percent.
casey ryder: Because I'm an, I'm going to tell you culturally that you’re this

thing so like now your whole life is on this trajectory.

I wish that we were just respected as like beings that could be anything we wanted to be and had some choice in the matter as young children.

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah. Like that programming ...

casey ryder: I'm like feeling very angry, like angry vibes in my body right now. Like that we tell children that they are ... that we make decisions for children.

ash alberg: Yeah.

casey ryder: Without their consent.

ash alberg: Yes. That is not just like safety shit. There's a difference between “I'm going to let my kid run free and if they happen to run into a fire, like it's okay, they'll learn their lesson.” No, maybe there are like, there are some things that we do need to teach children and provide guidance for them. But there's a lot of shit and a lot of fucked up messages that we feed children.

casey ryder: It’s heartbreaking. It’s so heartbreaking.

ash alberg: Yes! I just think of all the kids that are like ... I'm so happy that there are more kids that are comfortable recognizing that their gender is not just within a binary these days. Like I go and I teach, not recently, [chuckles] but like I go and I teach queer youth and I'm like, I was one of four kids that, at that point, I thought I was cis, but I was gay.

Like I was one of four people in my high school who was, I was out, the others were semi out because of how horrific it was to be out. And I think of the way that my parents reacted, which was like, actually not bad based on the way that most of my friends’ parents reacted realistically, but it was still like, they grew up at a time where the ... it, there was fear attached to it because now you're worried that their life is going to be harder and that it's dangerous because that's what they grew up with.

And then I like go in and I'm teaching these kids and they're just like half of them, whether I'm in a city or a small town, like half of them are identifying as not straight, not cis. And I'm just like, you kids are fucking magic. And I know your life is not easy by making this statement to the world, because there are lots of people who fear that and are going to try and squash you.

But I am so fucking proud of you that at this stage in your life, you are confident enough and feel stable enough in your identity to be able to say, this is who I am. And maybe that's going to change in a few years. But like right now, this is who I am. Maybe it's going to change fucking tomorrow. But ... and that

... same with our same with little kids, just like all of the ways that we like stop children from like being as much as they could be or should be.

Like, I just finished reading ... Ooh, you should read We Should All Be Millionaires by Rachel Rogers. I'm telling everybody to read this book. It is fucking fantastic. [Casey chuckles.] But she goes into how like the messaging that we receive as folks who are who are socialized as female and especially like women of color and femmes of color, like the messaging that we received specifically around money is literally the opposite of what is provided to white men.

And it is shit that needs to be deprogrammed in order to move forward. It is not a thing that is actually true, and it is not a thing that should ... you should allow to stop you, but it is absolutely part of the issue. And it is part of the cultural norm. And in order for us to build wealth in lots of forms, including financial forms, and live abundant lives, including financially abundant, which then gives us the power to go and like fuck with things and put money in where we want to.

Like Beyonce is literally able to rebuild schools just by signing a check and does it, because that's like that ... there is so much that we can do with all of the different tools at our disposal.

casey ryder: Like, we’re in capitalism. We’re in it.

ash alberg: Yes. Like you can't ... Yeah. You can't pretend that we're not in it, whether it's late stage or not. Like to remove yourself entirely from capitalism while living in our society at least ... like maybe in other parts of the world, it's not as big of a thing but for us it is.

You cannot ignore it. You also ... to say I'm just going to completely go off grid, it takes a shit ton of privilege and like knowledge and access to things and access to a climate that is gonna allow you to live full-time off grid in a way where you're not just living a subsistence life.

Like it's ...

casey ryder: Yeah, like we're in it. So if we can like, fuck it up from the inside ...

ash alberg: Yes, within it! Yeah, exactly. [Casey laughs.] Exactly. I'd move more of our people, which is everybody except for the 1%, like move more of our people into having more agency and more capacity. Then why would we not do that? But yeah, part of it is deprogramming those fucked up messages that we receive from very young ages that this is what you do.

And I remember I was talking to one of my dear ones recently, who's you know, hunting for jobs. And one of Rachel's things is, she was telling the story of and telling the stats of how women when they're approaching jobs ... ‘cause like she's an entrepreneur. If you're an entrepreneur, then it becomes a game like ton of hustle, more into a game instead of just hustle.

But if you're working in a regular job, there are still ways of building wealth, including actually like negotiating for your wages, which women across the board, women and femmes don't do because we've been trained to not do that. And when ... even just when you're looking at a job application and a job description, women will not apply for jobs statistically, unless they fit a hundred percent of the qualifications.

Whereas men, white men in particular, will look and see that they fit 60% of the specifications and be like, yeah, I'm in and they will go and they will often then be hired and then ...

casey ryder: Right. And they're confident that they will be hired. ash alberg: Exactly. And so I literally was like, pretend ...

casey ryder: And women are like, I'm not qualified for this. I won't even, I won't even bother.

ash alberg: I won't even consider. Yeah, exactly. And then when, if I do put myself forward, I'm not going to negotiate for the highest part of the money or like above that, which is also consistently a thing that men are taught.

Yeah, you deserve the world. You can have the world, go and do it. And so I literally was like, pretend that you have the audacity of a mediocre white man and go forth, because that is literally, that will serve you so fucking ... like you don't even need to be an amazing one, just mediocre and the confidence that they have navigating the world will hold.

casey ryder: And they are taught that It's not like ...

ash alberg: Yes! It’s not that like from the womb that they actually truly believe that. It's literally that every single message they receive, whether they have asked for those messages or not is telling them that this is the way it is.

casey ryder: Yep. Yeah. [Ash chuckles.] Cool. Okay. Let's just tell everybody that they have the capacity to be whoever they want.

ash alberg: Yes.

casey ryder: I don't know. That's a wild, crazy thought.

ash alberg: Oh my god. [Laughs.] What a concept.

casey ryder: What if?

ash alberg: What if we allowed people to like, be fully themselves and to shine.

casey ryder: What if we created the containers for people to just be who they are.

ash alberg: Yeah. Without shame spirals attached to things.
casey ryder: Right. And change who they think they are. And like just, it takes

a while to figure out who you are. Probably like a whole lifetime.

ash alberg: Yeah. Yes. And like to feel also ... I think that's, you just hit the nail on the head with feeling like they can continue to change. Like I think that people feel like at a certain point, well they're supposed to have figured out who they are and they can't change their circumstances or they can't change who they are or what they do or how they respond to situations.

And I feel like as soon as you stop changing, and as soon as you stop adapting and learning and growing and evolving, then why the fuck even bother? [Casey chuckles.] Like the whole point of life is to experience as much as we can, which does not necessarily mean that you go and you like put yourself or others in harm's way in order to do it.

But I feel like a lot of times the people who are the most harmful unintentionally are the ones who have stopped recognizing that they have responsibility and that

they have the capacity to change the way that they are responding to situations. Everybody should go to therapy. [Laughs.]

casey ryder: Everybody should go to therapy. And also we don't get to be who ... we don't get to explore who we are and who we can be because our basic needs are not met.

ash alberg: Oh my god, yes.
casey ryder: It's just yeah. Speaking of privilege, like if you get to be, you get

to be more of who you are based on your privilege. ash alberg: A hundred percent.
casey ryder: And ...

ash alberg: Exist in your zone of genius only. And like otherwise and we all have different zones of geniuses, right? If you if the idea of cooking a healthy supper every single day stresses you the fuck out, but you could pay somebody a really good living wage with health benefits and paid vacations and sick days and all of it.

And they are an amazing chef who just truly loves, why would you not do that? We're like, oh, there's certain things that are like too much, right? You can't have a personal chef. If you have a nanny, but you're a parent, like that's a terrible thing. And it's no, like there are people who love this shit.

casey ryder: Who are good at that!

ash alberg: Yes. And where it's easy for them and it's joyful for them. And if we could provide them with a really good working space to do the thing that they love, so that then we have space to do the thing that we love, and then also have time and energy to do the other things that we love that have nothing to do with work.

Like how fucking magical would that entire ecosystem of humans be?

casey ryder: Yeah. I just dream of like a post-money world. Basically I just want to live in Star Trek [Ash cackles]. In the Star Trek universe like they

figured out ... our basic needs are met. Period. Now what do you want to do with your life?

ash alberg: Oh my god. It's like the whole like universal income where they’re ... people are always like, like the argument is always that, oh, people will be lazy and they'll never do anything. And it's no, literally what they will do is they will have the capacity to choose a thing that is better for them, which is like what I'm hearing from the States right now where people ... like y'all did not get decent stimulus checks. [Casey laughs.] I'm just putting that out there, but like the fact that ...

casey ryder: Mine's gone. Mine is gone. It's gone.

ash alberg: Yeah, right? And the fact that AI is not actually that much money. It is like just barely getting you by, but it is covering your needs. And the fact ... I was listening to a podcast where I guess people in the restaurant industry are complaining because they're unable to hire staff back because the staff have been on EI and are now like able to choose okay, if my basic needs are being met, and so now I'm going to go back to school or I'm going to pursue this specialized training, or I'm going to be applying for these jobs in sectors that I actually care deeply about and that also then will allow me to move a lot further than flipping burgers for minimum wage, which is a disgustingly low minimum wage.

And then the argument is like this is bad and EI ... And it's, no. If the reason that you can't bring your staff back is because they were treated so poorly before that now having just their barest basic needs met is like exponentially better, y'all fucked up.

casey ryder: Yeah. Yeah. Something's wrong. Yeah.
My partner and I drove past an Amato's the other day with like a sign outside

that was like now hiring $15 an hour, paid vacation, healthcare. It's ... ash alberg: The basics.
casey ryder: Yeah. Yeah. Like now you’re ...
[Both talking at the same time.]

ash alberg: How is this not what you were offering before?
casey ryder: You're advertising all these things now. Like cool. [Sarcasm.]

ash alberg: It's just fucking wild. And I think like for me hiring staff at this point, I'm like having to figure out like, because I'm like unwilling to hire staff to conditions that I per ... I have high conditions for what I would expect.

casey ryder: Exactly.
ash alberg: And so if I ...
casey ryder: Like I’m not going to hire somebody like ... yeah. ash alberg: For minimum wage, I'm like ...
casey ryder: Like below ...

ash alberg: Like even living wage, like living wage was determined like five or six or seven years ago. Like baseline training wage, as far as I'm concerned is $20 an hour. Once you're trained and I know that I'm not going to lose money on you fucking up because I've now trained you, then we bump you up to a higher wage. And then from there we start negotiating okay, when can we be increasing your hours?

Do you actually want an increase in hours? Once you hit full-time hours that automatically means that I am providing you with healthcare and paid vacations and days and all the rest of it. I don't have the capacity yet. So I am not hiring you.

If I can't hire you at full time and offer those things, then I am not hiring you for that number of hours, regardless of whether it would make my life easier or not. Like I will hire you for the number of hours where the money that I have available ...

casey ryder: Can pay you well, can pay you well.

ash alberg: Exactly. And then I will figure out the rest of the shit on my own until the business is at a place where it can actually offer ...

casey ryder: It's a really hard place to be because like for my business, I feel like I have enough work for three people probably. And ... but I can't hire somebody like with, with a good con ... like with a good conscience, like I need to, like you said, be able to pay somebody a good wage and I'm not paying myself.

I'm like, I'm not there myself yet.

ash alberg: Yes, that was part of it too. Like when I broke down, like here's what I am willing to pay somebody as a starting full-time wage. And then I looked at the number ...

casey ryder: Like, I want that!
ash alberg: Literally! I was like, shit, like the way that I am ... like building my

... I'm like, that will be me in a year and a half. casey ryder: Yeah. I feel like any ...

ash alberg: I need some help before then, but I have to figure out how do I make this ...

casey ryder: Like any like actual business person, like anyone who's gone to school for business look at ... I would probably say most fiber arts businesses and be like, why are you doing this?

ash alberg: What the fuck are you doing? A hundred percent. It's ... for me, I like look at, I have ... it's so funny because all of the business coaches are like, have one thing that you talk about. And just one thing. I'm like, I am an Aries, that doesn't work. [Casey chuckles.]

But also it's just, it doesn't make sense because diverse income streams mean that if something isn't working for people for a chunk of time, there's something else that does. And I also don't want to be in a position where I am either undervaluing my own work or only able to offer really high ticket items. Like I want to be able to offer across the board so that if you are happy and willing to invest a certain level of money, cool. Here's this thing for you.

If you don't have that, or you have other values that you want to put ahead of that, which is completely your prerogative, here's this like very low price thing and then everything in between. And it's so funny ‘cause it's, you should only

have this one thing that you're talking about. And then you should only focus on that solely. And then also look at all of your offers and they are only valid if they make financial sense.

casey ryder: Yeah, that’s not true.

ash alberg: And I'm like, no. And if I did that, like knitwear design, I like, I love my knitwear design, it is a core part of my business. Making books is like my deepest creative love at this point with my business and the most stupid financial decision I could make, because there is so much time that goes into them.

And so much, they are so expensive to print. Like I had a five-figure printing bill and we didn't even print that many copies. It's just this is how much it costs to print a book. And it's like literally the most amount of money I've dropped in my biz in a single go. It's like a year's worth of yarn.

casey ryder: And then you've got to wait to like, make it back.

ash alberg: Exactly. And it makes no fucking sense. And that, and like the point where you're like, I've had profit with we've sold this many books and therefore we're in profit time, it's not actually, it's just, we've paid off the printing bill. And so now we're like slowly making back our money from the amount of the years, literal years, to do ...

casey ryder: Yeah. It will take years. It'll take ... it took years to make it. And it took, it'll take years to like, make your profit on it.

ash alberg: And it's also the thing that I'm like completely unwilling to drop. I'm like, okay, how can I make my business work in a way where the money that is coming in from other sources gives me the time and space to devote then to these creative processes that have absolute value in completely other ways for me.

It's not just, okay, this makes no sense, so we never make another book. No, that's, to me, that's not an acceptable option. But if I was coming from it from big C capitalist, school of business perspective, a hundred percent, that would be the first thing to go.

casey ryder: Yup. Yup. Yeah. But we're like humans who care. Yeah. It's weird to be a business owner and like also just be a person in the world and like wanting to not really subscribed to capitalism with a capital C.

ash alberg: Yes. Small C capitalism, I think has so much fucking potential to like, do so much good in the world. Big C capitalism is the issue, right?

casey ryder: Yeah. Like we were, like we said, like we're in it. We are in the system. We own businesses. We sell things for a living like ...

ash alberg: That's literally how we pay for ... but if we weren't doing this, we would be working for somebody else who, like they would be paying our wage. If we weren't running businesses, we would still be needing to find ways of bringing in enough money to cover our base needs. And we have chosen that businesses are the way that like feels the best right now for us to ...

casey ryder: For now.
ash alberg: ... make our living in the world.
casey ryder: What is your, what is your backup? What is your backup for?

ash alberg: I don't have one! Every time that I get frustrated with shit, I'm like, I remember actually a couple of years ago I was just so fucking tired because the business was like, I like I'm coming up on my three-year biz-aversary as like full-time.

casey ryder: Ooo, congrats!
ash alberg: Thank you. Yeah, like full time only gig, in about a month. And so

it based on when we're recording this.

So, the, a couple of years ago it was like so fucking fresh. And I had literally, like my plan when I went full-time was not that I was going to go full-time at that point, it was that I was working for some ... a different organization and doing my biz on the side.

But my plan had been that I would be working for that organization for five years while I built up the biz. And it became such a toxic space that I left in under a year. So it was like, I gotta pull the cord because for my, literally for my

mental health, I need to pull the cord, but I'm not actually ready to pull this cord.

We're just going to do it and see what the fuck happens. casey ryder: Yup. Yup. Here we go.

ash alberg: And yeah, by the end of that year, I was so fucking tired and I was like, okay, what are my options? And I knew at that point, I was like, okay, I have a really weird fucking skillset. I am highly skilled. I am very efficient if you just let me do my shit.

And so I, if I want to go back into the workforce, I can, and I am willing to do it for this amount of money, which is, now, as I'm thinking about what do I want to see my business looking like in five to 10 years, I'm like, that's not much. But it would have been enough for me to be like, if somebody offered me that much, I would take it and maintain the bits of my business that I enjoy and that I don't need to bring in enough money to cover my base needs.

And just having the knowledge that I have this as my option, this is a backup if I need it, when I have to get me through another couple of months and then things started to shift and change, which I am grateful for. But yeah, at that point I'm like, I don't have a backup. The backup is like how quickly is this going to grow to a stage where I have a team that is able to help me do the shit that at this point, it's not even that I don't enjoy each aspect of my biz. It's that when they are overlapping on top of each other, then they stress me out so much.

casey ryder: Yup. Yup.

ash alberg: I'm loving these conversations for the podcast. And I am also in the midst of dyeing for my next shop update and the combination of those two things ... A couple of days ago, I was thinking about it and I was like, I fucking hate both of them. And then I was like, nope, I don't hate both of them. [Casey laughs.] I hate them at the same time.

And I wish that COVID wasn't happening so that I could hire a production assistant to help me with the dyeing, because that would be something that would make it a lot easier. We're in COVID, I can't do that right now. So we'll just figure it out for another ...

casey ryder: I want two more of me’s, I just wanna duplicate myself. ash alberg: I know, and like ...

casey ryder: I do a lot of the parts. What's that? I like a lot. I like most of the parts of my business.

ash alberg: It's just like which bits do you ... I've actually figured out that the long-term thing will be that the, ‘cause I love my dyeing practice. I don't want to not be doing my dyeing. The bit that I will maintain long-term is that I will have dye assistants, production assistants, who are going to be like making and packing orders and they will do the baseline dying, right?

Like all these big shop updates that I am doing, where I'm like dyeing 500 skeins at a time, they will do that. And then I will maintain the nerdiest part of it, which is that I will each year be able to go source different sheep, work and find a perfect new, special edition sock base. Grow my plants over the growing season, dye the small batch of special sock yarns with the plants that I have foraged and grown at home.

And then that will be the nerdy bit that I get to maintain with the dyeing where like I get to keep the parts that are the most delightful to me and bring me the most joy and are the least likely to stress me out to a point where I lose the joy in the moment.

casey ryder: Yeah. I feel really good having a dye day in my work week, which is not very ... like I, it's easy for me to get out of that practice because of all of the other business shit. And ... but whenever I spend a day in the dye kitchen, I just feel like I've done something.

Like I feel good. I feel like I'm delighted with hanging up the fiber and yeah. I think I would keep, if I had somebody helping me, I would keep doing the dyeing at this point because my production is pretty small anyways.

I do have dreams of getting some more dye like one of those like big steamer tray dye situations.

ash alberg: Yeeeaaahh!

casey ryder: But that would be further down the line. That's a pretty big investment. I want somebody to help me with being the shop person. Like ...

ash alberg: Yeah!

casey ryder: I enjoy, I don't want to be like completely out of that role because I like interacting with people. And up until this point, I have mostly been the only person here. I have had one employee and I've had some interns, but people associate my business with me.

ash alberg: Yeah. casey ryder: Yeah.

But it does ... it feels, it doesn't feel good to have a customer walk in and feel like you've been interrupted ...

ash alberg: Yes. Oh my god.

casey ryder: ... from your workflow. It's ... they are the reason I'm here and I get to be here and I don't want to feel like resentful towards some customers. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: I get like that, whenever it comes to packing an order and I'm like, oh my god. And then I'm like, no, literally this is what you do and why you do it. [Laughs.] Like them buying your yarn is the reason that you're doing all this and that lets you do more of it.

casey ryder: Your feelings of overwhelm is not because of them. It's because you have too many jobs.

ash alberg: Yeah. A hundred percent. [Casey chuckles.] Oh my god. Yeah.

casey ryder: There is like the ... I struggle with ... speaking of going back to the conversation about boundaries, I do struggle in person with ... I haven't found a good way to say, “I'm at work.” Like ...

ash alberg: Oohh.
casey ryder: I can't really ...

ash alberg: I think my face does that for me. [Laughs.]
casey ryder: Yeah. Like I can't have this conversation with you because I have

1 million other things to do.
Like I have not found a way to say that kindly. That's a hard boundary.

ash alberg: And like when people haven't quite clued into that ... like I don't have to deal with that too frequently, but definitely, like when I'm teaching, like when I go into spaces pre and post-COVID to teach, and it's you're prepping, you're like mentally trying to prepare yourself for the group of people that's about to come. And then somebody recognizes you and comes up and starts ... And it's no. I don't have time for this right now. I'm going ...

casey ryder: This is my prep.
ash alberg: Exactly.
casey ryder: I'm in a different, I'm in a different headspace ... ash alberg: Completely.
casey ryder: Cannot hold this space right now.

ash alberg: Yeah. And then like at, definitely at like at trade shows and fiber festivals and things like that, like there's ... it's, I find it really funny because there's like my friends and my really solid customers who do recognize that and understand it.

And so we'll definitely stop and be chatting with each other. And then they know oh, there's a person who's like hovering at the edge of the booth. I'm going to move myself out of the way now so that you can go and deal with them. But I have people I've had people in the past, who like are not my customers.

They're just like somebody who maybe follows me on social media. And then they start having a long conversation with me and I'm like trying to break the conversation to go and deal with somebody else. And sometimes you can do that in a way that is polite and sometimes they catch onto it. And other times they really don't.

And if the person who's ... they're just like a little too far away to ease. I think probably at this point, my boundaries with COVID have become much stronger. And so probably I would just be like, you know what, give me a second. I have to go help this person. I've gotten better at that for sure in the past year.

casey ryder: For me, it’s like ...

ash alberg: But also like my face just is like very clear, like the ... before I remember to catch it, my face is like, “Shut the fuck up. I need to go over here now.” [Casey laughs.] And then I like, I haven't quite ... like I don't realize that my face has said that until it's too late.

casey ryder: [Laughs.] Yeah.

I just I can't like, for me often, it's not ... there is no other customer in the shop, and so it's, I would have to say, “I'm in the middle of reconciling my bank statements.” Like ...

ash alberg: Yeah. But I would actually do that. And I think actually, what has helped me get really good at that is having again pre COVID, I had a roommate for a while and then longer-term house guests who like, I work from home. I need to be working. And me being on the computer or me being on my phone or me being on my iPad.

Like all of those, maybe I'm just like hanging out and doing something, but more of the time I'm probably working. And having somebody walk in and start a conversation while I'm in the middle of like pre-scheduling shit until later I'm like, no, you actually need to stop talking to me right now. I will come and find you when I am done.

Because they anxious brain is, there are 17 trains on the track at any given time. None of them intersect. And if I lose track of one of those trains, I have lost it. And you coming to tell me about what you had for lunch is really not important. [Casey laughs.] Like I will come and find you afterwards, but ...

casey ryder: Yeah.

And in retail I don't really have the option of ... it's not, they are the most important thing on my plate at that point. Like you are, you're my customer.

Like I'm here for you. And then sometimes it can shift into, “Let me tell you about my day.” And I'm like I'm not really here ... I am here for that.

You're a human being and I care about you, but also but you wouldn't go into, I feel like there's like a boundary issue with ... you wouldn't go into go get your car fixed. Or you wouldn't even do that if you went to ...

ash alberg: You wouldn't do that at Target.

casey ryder: Yeah not at Target.

It's just people are like, we're at work, we're at work here. And we've, we have, obviously I've created an atmosphere where people feel comfortable doing that and sharing that. Oops. Sharing their lives, but yeah.

I need to find a way of conveying that I actually do care, but I can't be there at that moment for that. Like we can't sit down and chat for half an hour.

ash alberg: Yeah. Again, it's at compassion bit that I think is just ... and realistically, we're always going to fuck up at some point, because other people's boundaries and ideas of like their own needs and whether or not they recognize those needs as overlapping with somebody ... who's, who are they considering to be more important in that particular moment?

Are they in a space where they recognize that they're intruding in that moment? And that like at a different time, or in a different setting, that we would be happy or/and willing to provide them with that. And/or that actually that's not the position that they hold in our lives.

That's part of it too, but ...
casey ryder: Right. Yeah. Therapy is great. [Both laugh.]
ash alberg: Yeah.
casey ryder: Like therapists get paid like really good money. And I do not.

ash alberg: Yeah, oh my god. That is a big part of it. And it's ... and I think a big part of it too, is it's not personal. And it's so hard to convey that, especially when somebody is like having a hard time, where it's, it's not personal.

It's not that I don't care about you as a human. It's not that I don't care that you're struggling. It's literally just that I am not this person for you.

casey ryder: Uh-huh.

ash alberg: To maintain that capacity for these, this small group of close friends in my life. I don't even offer this to my wider circle of friends on an ongoing basis.

I appreciate when they ... before they dumped shit on me, if they ask if I have the capacity to do that.

casey ryder: 100%, 100%.

ash alberg: There's I'm slowly learning how to do it. And I think it's also easier with my friends who are further away, where it's we ... if you text somebody than they, they can choose when they respond.

And it's also easier to be like, hey, like I have this thing that I want to talk about. It's going to take some emotional energy ... but I do also do it with like my dear ones who are close. And I've been practicing with one in particular who has received the brunt of me during COVID. And it's like, when there's shit that ... like we’ve now pretty much established that most of the time, I would say 99.9% of the time when there's conflict it's that my brain has made up stories that we then just need to confirm that it has, my brain has made up stories.

But like when my brain has made up stories to a certain extent and I'm like, no, I actually need to talk this through with you then I will state that because I recognize that it takes emotional labor and that person doesn't necessarily always have that kind of capacity.

casey ryder: Yeah.

ash alberg: And so I'm like, hey, I want to talk about this thing. We're good. Or I'm not good. I would appreciate if we could do it sometime soon, but it is going to take emotional labor so let me know when you have energy to do that.

And we've created a consistency in the relationship to the point where I know they'll get back to me within a fairly short period of time. Maybe it's not going to be like within the next half hour, but they're not going to leave me hanging for a week. And so it is, now that I've stated this as a thing that I need, it's now

my job to manage my shit between now and when we then have a conversation, because we will have that conversation.

But I don't know, it takes time to build that relationship with people and it's easier to do with humans who love us and know us outside of the ...

casey ryder: Who don't have also like a financial like ...

ash alberg: Yeeaahh.

casey ryder: Relationship.

ash alberg: The finances definitely make it a little more messy.

casey ryder: Yeah, it’s weird. But I do feel like, I do feel a friendship with many of my customers.

ash alberg: Totally. I think sometimes I feel more friendship with some of my customers than they're like, we, I recognize that our relationship is primarily a financial transaction.

casey ryder: Uh-uh.

ash alberg: And I’m like, but aren't we friends too? [Both laugh.] They're just like, sure, Ash, but I'm just going to always remind you that I recognize that there is a limit to that.

casey ryder: I like the shit you make! ash alberg: Yeah.
casey ryder: And I want to support you! ash alberg: Yes.

casey ryder: Great.

ash alberg: Oh, okay. Yeah, we can talk. I ... it's so funny. I have some customers who are like really good at just like respecting that boundary space,

which I appreciate. And it's like, when I see them, then it's, let's talk about natural dyes. Let's talk about all this nerdy stuff. I don't expect it.

Which I do appreciate quite a bit because it's a lot easier to deal with them than it is to deal with the people who like ... yyeahh. The hand gesture you're doing. It's so great. It's like tentacles sucking out. [Casey laughs.]

I feel like we've been shitting on customers and it's not that at all. It's literally just like, how do you be a human and be a compassionate human within the messiness of capitalism and in particular, within ...?

casey ryder: Like other business owners ...
ash alberg: They don’t think about this shit.
casey ryder: ... in other industries do not have to think about this.

ash alberg: No! Exactly. And I think that's a big part ... and it like, it's part of why I think it, capitalism has fucked us over where it's created this like very black and white, this is the only transaction. This is the only like integration between these two entities. And I think that's part of what has fucked things over.

And also then what fucks over a lot of small businesses where people ... I think that the problem is that we're like on the one hand expected to and to a fairly large extent do want to be more personal with our people. And we want to create a more like human to human connection with them ...

casey ryder: But we're like hustling. We're hustling for our lives right now.

ash alberg: A hundred percent. And then also dealing with like people treating you as though you are from a large corporation and that you are this faceless thing and that you are this entity that they can unload all of their shit on because they're frustrated.

casey ryder: Uh huh.
ash alberg: And I'm glad that's not my baseline customer.

Like I very rarely need to deal with that. And have very intentionally created an audience base who knows that. And knows that I, like my emotional capacity

for that kind of shit is none. So if you do that to me, I will very happily cut you as a customer. [Casey laughs.] And feel no problems with it because the $9 you paid me for that pattern, I will happily find somebody else who likes that pattern instead. Or $150 you spent in yarn, thank you, I appreciate that. That does not mean that you get to treat me like shit.

casey ryder: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't really had the treat me like shit. Fortunately, thank god.

ash alberg: I feel like we're, we've got good. Like it, I think I can think of on my hand of the years, like two or three instances that it has happened and it was then very easy to reconcile it.

But I've got friends who like, it's like an ongoing, it's like a daily thing for them. I'm like, what the fuck is happening with your business where you have some people who are really lovely, and we have crossover in our customer base, and I get the really lovely people and you clearly have this like very big base of humans who treat you like shit on a daily basis. Like what the fuck?

casey ryder: No, thank you.
ash alberg: Nope.
casey ryder: Pass.
ash alberg: Oh my God. We've been talking for so long. I ... that's fine. casey ryder: Yeah.

Also my customers are lovely. I don't mean to ... that is just like a ...

ash alberg: I think it's like a general, like general recognition of the industry as a whole. Like I think for, I, for me, and it sounds like for you as well, like our customers, we've done a really specific and intentional job of creating a customer base that does not do that because we don't want to deal with that.

But it, it absolutely is a trend that is very visible in our industry as a whole. And I suspect we both have multiple friends who don't have that same kind of boundary around their customers. And so unfortunately they deal with the shitty bits a lot more frequently than we do.

But yeah, I, yeah, I would say the same. Like my customers are really lovely human beings. It's just that part of maintaining that is making it very clear, these are the boundaries. If you're willing to play within the boundaries, welcome to the playbox. And if you're not feel free to fuck off. [Both laugh.]

casey ryder: I feel like I've gotten, especially when COVID hit I, I know ... I feel pretty confident, I should say, in, in the support that my community like has given me.

ash alberg: Yes. A hundred percent.
casey ryder: A lot of people bought gift certificates in March last year, and that

was just like a boost.

ash alberg: Especially because brick and mortars ... like I, for me, it's been relatively easy ... easy [blows raspberry] ... relatively being the keyword. They're easy to navigate COVID because I have been able to basically pivot everything online that wasn't already. Like I was already online. The things that weren't online have shifted to being online.

And now also a lot of the like big trade things that I would have been going to in-person have also needed to shift online. So I've been able to, in some ways, actually extend my reach in ways that I wouldn't have if that wasn't the case.

But brick and mortars ... fuck, I feel for y'all. Cause that's just ... casey ryder: [Chuckles.] Yeah. It's intense.

ash alberg: Yeah. That's so nice that people just were like here, we're going to buy gift certificates literally to help you get through and keep the lights on.

casey ryder: I'm just gonna throw some money at you. [Laughs.]
ash alberg: Yes. I'll use it eventually someday. But in the meantime, yeah. casey ryder: Yup.

ash alberg: Yeah. It's so funny. Even like when like small businesses have been like running sales and shit during COVID, I'm like, I'm going to just pay you full price if it's a thing that I like actually want and value.

casey ryder: Yeah.

ash alberg: Because that's ... I appreciate that you're running a sale, but I am in a position where if it's a thing that I want, then I will pay you the extra 10% because that extra 10% is useful for you.

casey ryder: Yeah.

I am on the cusp of like sending out a newsletter and having a sale this coming week to celebrate my full vaccination. And I don't like ... I rarely have sales. I just, I just don't like. I get it as a tool for marketing, blah, blah, blah. But it's expensive to run a business and ...

ash alberg: A hundred percent. And it's not like any of the like .... our price, our items don't have particularly large profit margins on them.

casey ryder: Mark ups. I like ... I'm selling you the thing at this cost and it could be more expensive, but it’s not.

ash alberg: Yes, yeah.
casey ryder: So I don't do sales very often, but I like fucking need some money

right now. So ... [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yes. And it does make a difference. And it's okay, this is a way of ... it's so funny ‘cause like right now I've decided, like I'm trying to get the community like a little bit more and I've got some lovely humans in it already. And I'm like, okay, this is a thing that could ultimately be something really lovely.

And, and they're the people who ... it's essentially replacing Patreon for me, where it's, this is where people, especially where I ... like the content that's in there is pre-built like you have access to it forever. But the thing that you're choosing to stay, month after month, is for our Zoom meeting.

And if I happen to add something, cool, but it's really that you are supporting me and supporting the work that I do at a low cost on an ongoing basis. Okay. Any period of time that you want to be part of that. I appreciate.

casey ryder: Maybe I should consider this.

ash alberg: You should! I, it's a lot of fun and there's just some really ... I think it also helps that again, we've created these like really beautiful communities of humans who do genuinely want to support us as humans, which I just so appreciate.

And so I was like, okay, I just did my own vaccination celebration sale. And I also am like, okay, I'm doing a big shop update again in July. I have some like random single skeins and things that like, I would just like to clear out. And so instead of just doing like a general sale, because I just did one, it's just going to go, they'll be on sale only in the community.

And realistically, the amount of money that you will save by purchasing a thing from the sale will basically offset your cost of the community for a month.

casey ryder: Yup, yup.

ash alberg: It works out quite nicely, but it's like a nice little thank you. Here's a little bonus. But it's also not stuff where it's, like all of my herbal remedies, like they have long shelf lives and everything is fresh.

So like putting them in there is mostly just for me to be like, here's a thing, I don't need to clean them out. It's like, I have something that's like a month away from expiring. And then yarn is, I don't care if it sells or not, because if it doesn't, if it takes it three years to sell, it's still the exact same yarn.

It's not like I need to get rid of things.

casey ryder: Yeah. Yeah. I'm only offering, I'm only doing the sale through my newsletter, which I think is ...

ash alberg: Also like a nice, here's a thank you to like the people who give more of a shit.

casey ryder: Yeah, like you have literally subscribed to hearing from me. Like you want to hear from me, you want to hear what my business is doing. You're probably like financially supporting me anyways, thank you for that.

Here, save some money and help me make a lot, hopefully a good chunk of change in this week so I can pay my fucking bills. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Exactly. Exactly. It's so funny. Like I'm excited to see how as these conversations keep rolling out on the podcast feeds like, part of me is like, don't read the comments. Also side note, like I find it so funny that for like years and years we were told don't read the comments and now literally the whole thing, like all of the social media algorithms, the way that you play the game is by interacting in the comments space.

What the fuck, when did this change? But anyway I am excited to see whether ... ‘cause these are all conversations that I have with my biz friends all the time where it's this is just the realities of our industries and why we make decisions and how we do what we do. And this is an industry standard.

It doesn't necessarily make sense. This is ones that we are willing to put up with. These are ones that it's like, why the fuck would I do that? This is undermining the industry. Like the end ... for the general public, it's not things that they think about, which is reasonable, right? I don't know all of the reasons that a restaurant makes the choices that they do.

casey ryder: Right. Like you're just going to the restaurant to eat the food. Like it's good food. You want to eat it? Boom.

ash alberg: Exactly. But yeah, it's ... I think it's useful for us to have more information than less, because then we can make more informed decisions, which like, for me now, as a small biz owner, it does change the way that a. I interact with small businesses and then b. the way that I interact with other businesses as well, where it's like, my expectation of things adjusts accordingly.

casey ryder: Yeah. if you know something about a business that you don't want to support, because they've made a certain decision, now you know that information and you don't have to be a part of it.

ash alberg: Yes, exactly. That's a big, yeah. I think that's the thing too. And like also recognizing that nobody actually owes you anything and you have the choice of engaging with them or not. It's not ... because somebody is in a certain industry does not require them to then be on every specific platform within that industry, or have specific types of social media or respond 24/7, or like all of those things.

It's, people get to decide what works best for them. And then you can decide whether that works for you in the way that you want to engage with them or not.

And then choose to not engage with them. If it doesn't work, it doesn't mean that you got to scream of abuses at them.

casey ryder: Yeah. On the flip side of it, like ...
ash alberg: There are some people where screaming your abuses makes a lot of

sense.

casey ryder: I was going to say that maybe you really appreciate that you're ... like, I appreciate that you're working within your fibershed. I want to support your business because you're using natural dyes. Like, I love those things that you're doing. And your product is unique and doing good in the world in these ways.

So I want to support that.

ash alberg: A hundred percent. And yeah, you like buy things that maybe you don't necessarily need, but are like, you know what, this makes me really happy. And this is a thing that I would like to buy a few things from you that I don't need them. They're not going to make or break my life. But I would like to support you in this particular moment in time.

And I'll like ...
casey ryder: Or I want that yarn. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: A hundred percent! Like I bought ... I like saw a pin the other day and I was like, this pin is so great. And then I like found three or four posters and I was like, okay, we're just going to get a hundred dollars worth of stuff from this random, like small biz illustrator who like I’m like, I like your things.

I'm like, some of these are really basic images, a hundred percent. I could just scribble them out myself.

casey ryder: Uh huh.
ash alberg: It would look the same. I don't want to, I would rather pay you.

casey ryder: Yeah, you already did it. I love it. Here, have my money. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. Oh my god. I’m like that nowadays with clothes. I'm just like fucking, especially underwear. I'm like, I absolutely have the capacity to make this, my lingerie fabric stock is impressive, and I also just don't want to do it and I will happily pay somebody else to sew my underwear for me.

casey ryder: Boom baby. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Oh, so funny. Okay, so, pfft. This is ...

casey ryder: Yeah. I'll have to go in like, within 10 minutes.

ash alberg: Okay. This is good, ‘cause I also need to go, my dye pots are on. What is next for you?

casey ryder: What is next for me? I am always looking for more wholesale accounts for Cashmere People Yarns. That, that feels like the most pressing part of my business because it's literally supporting like 70 other women.

ash alberg: No pressure. [Laughs and snorts.]

casey ryder: I, yeah, I'm no pressure at all. So if you're listening to this and you have a favorite local yarn shop that you think would really appreciate a unique and beautiful yarn that supports a bunch of people who really need support in their lives ...

ash alberg: Or if you're a really fancy designer, who, for some reason it's listening to this and you have a lot of clout and you know that your design is going to result in a lot of yarn sales ...

casey ryder: Yes. It's, I'm looking forward to more in-person events at some point, because it is like a yarn you have to touch and to really under ... like when you see it's hand spun, but it looks like it's mill spun. It's ...

ash alberg: Yeah. It really does.
casey ryder: It's just very ...
ash alberg: I didn’t realize it was hand spun.

casey ryder: Scrumptious. So yeah, that is at my short-term, long-term, really pushing some wholesale accounts and maybe doing a little more with retail shows too in the future.

And hopefully at some point I'll be able to hire somebody. ash alberg: Yeeahh!

casey ryder: And pay them well. And like I said earlier, I feel like I've got at least three full-time positions within my business. [Ash laughs.] That I'm all ... I'm just doing like a mediocre job at each of these things. And I'm looking forward to opening back up for classes, hopefully soon.

I'm always looking for new instructors. And yeah, down the line. It's hard for me to ... I've always had a hard time picturing, like future, future things. I feel like my brain goes to one or two years, but like mostly functions within six months.

ash alberg: Yeah, totally.
casey ryder: And which is it's, that's not like ... that's not where my ... I really

need to be able to look forward as a business owner.

Because you're, you won't ever get to those goals if you don't break them down into smaller chunks. So yeah, with Cashmere People Yarns, I've been trying to make a habit of reaching out to a couple of folks, like either business, other shop owners, designers, publications, like two a day is my goal.

ash alberg: Holy shit!

casey ryder: But I don't do that. [Ash snort-laughs.] Like sometimes I'm like on a good roll and then like other days just totally goes to shit and like weeks go by and ...

ash alberg: Yeah. I feel like that's fair though. ‘Cause also like the research, like for myself researching wholesale. ‘Cause it's also, you want to make sure that like your values align and that it's like the ... it's not just as simple as okay, let me like, #yarnstore, and then click on every single one and send a message to every single one. There’s research that ...

casey ryder: They have to like, yeah. They have to believe in the product. Like this, it's so specific and unique. Like ... Sometimes I’m like ...

ash alberg: Yes. You have to like see what else they're selling to see, is this going to fit in?

casey ryder: Are you going to tell the story or do you have 1 million yarn brands and this is just going to get lost in the shuffle?

ash alberg: Yep. Do you mostly sell Cascade? So your audience base is also like maybe not ... like you'll have a few people who appreciate it, but probably not too many others.

casey ryder: Yeah. For myself I would like to ... I have this little space in my apartment that my roommates and I call the nook. It's just like this little, it fits a couch. And a while back I was working my way through the book, The Artist’s Way.

ash alberg: Yes. Yup.
casey ryder: And I have these sticky notes that I wrote to myself that are just

like, what are those things called? Affirmations. [Ash giggles.]

Yeah. And one of them is, “You own a business.” One of them is, “You own a business because you work hard.” And a couple of them are like “Your art, you make time for your making and like, your art belongs in the world, and you can apply to teach at these various fiber events, like you're valuable as a teacher.”

Which I don't think about too often, but I do ... I went to school to be a teacher. ash alberg: Yeah. So you're like actually trained in how to do it properly. casey ryder: Or, in a certain way.
ash alberg: Yeah. [Giggle-snorts.]

casey ryder: And another thing I want to look into in the future is residencies ... which I'm like, always struggling with the term “artist.”

ash alberg: But it's so important. [Laughs.]

casey ryder: Yeeah. And we do this like knitting and handwork feels, can often feel like, not like art.

ash alberg: Yes, because it’s very practical a lot of the time.
casey ryder: It's practical. It's yeah, but we're practicing almost, I would say

like a lot of us daily.

ash alberg: And like many hours a day. Like when you think of like whenever somebody is, “oh, how do you justify like the price that you charge for an hour?” I'm like, you would not ask that of an IT person who has a single PhD. I have multiple PhDs at this point in time, based on the hours of time that I've spent on this fucking shit.

casey ryder: 100%.

ash alberg: Yeah.

casey ryder: Yep. [Ash laughs.] So yeah, applying to residencies.

ash alberg: This is also why we need employees though so that we can actually like go and do those residencies.

casey ryder: Go places.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. [Casey laughs.] Exactly. I'm like, I need to be able to remove myself for a chunk of time and come back and y'all have just kept it running smoothly

casey ryder: Yeah. Like out outside of this business I have ideas for my, for my work, for like my handwork that I don't ever get to ... not ever, but it takes a long time to get to it. When you're, when that is your side hustle, it's not even a hustle. It's just ...

ash alberg: Joy?
casey ryder: It's a joy. Yeah, like it's a thing that I must do.

Like we all, we're all compelled. We're all compelled, but I haven't really explored a lot of my own ideas. Like I make other people's ideas, which is great and relaxing and I love it, but I have sketches that I want to get to, damnit.

ash alberg: I love this. Okay. We've got two minutes left, so thank you, Casey, so much for joining me and for chatting with me for so long. I really appreciate all of this.

casey ryder: Thank you. This is delightful. [Ash laughs.] Thanks for holding the space for us to have the conversation while you're dye pots are bubbling.

ash alberg: Oh my god. Hopefully they're not bubbling, shit.
casey ryder: No bubbles. No, no friction.
ash alberg: Fingers crossed! [Both laugh.] Cool. Thank you so much. casey ryder: Thank you.

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] You can find full episode recordings and transcripts at snortandcackle.com. Just click on podcast in the main menu. Follow Snort and Cackle on Instagram @snortandcackle and join our seasonal book club with @SnortandCackleBookClub. Don't forget to subscribe and review the podcast by your favorite podcasting platform.

Editing provided by Noah Gilroy, recording and mixing by Ash Alberg, music by Yesable.