season 1, episode 6 - living tarot with sheila masterson

our guest for episode 6 is sheila masterson! sheila is a philadelphia based career and business tarot reader and teacher, energy healing facilitator, and host of the living tarot podcast. she has been reading people her whole life and “hearing” energy since she was a young child. she believes that everyone has the ability to connect deeply to their intuition and that tarot is an excellent tool for learning to trust yourself and learn to hear your own inner voice.

she is on a mission to break the paradigm of old “fortune telling readings” and instead strives to empower clients through collaborative sessions that help them connect with their own inner wisdom and move forward with confidence on aligned action steps. you can find her online at starsagespirit.com and on instagram @starsagespirit, and subscribe to the living tarot podcast via your favourite podcast platform.

each season we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #snortandcacklebookclub, with a book review by ash and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. this season's #snortandcacklebookclub read is witchcraft in early modern poland 1500-1800 by wanda wyporska.

take the fibre witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz. follow us on instagram @snortandcackle and be sure to subscribe via your favourite podcasting app so you don't miss an episode!

seasons 1-3 of snort & cackle are generously supported by the manitoba arts council.

transcript

snort & cackle - season 1, episode 6

ash alberg: [00:00:00] [Upbeat music plays in the background.] Hello, and welcome to the Snort and Cackle podcast. I'm your host Ash Alberg. I'm a queer fibre witch and hedge witch, and each week I interview a fellow boss witch to discuss how everyday magic helps them make their life and the wider world a better place.

Expect serious discussions about intersections of privilege and oppression, big C versus small C capitalism, rituals, sustainability, astrology, ancestral work, and a whole lot of snorts and cackles. Each season, we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #SnortAndCackleBookClub with a book review by me and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. Our book this season is Witchcraft in Early Modern Poland, 1500-1800 by Wanda Wyporska.

So I am joined today by my friend, Sheila Masterson. Sheila is a Philadelphia-based career and business tarot reader and teacher, energy healing facilitator, and host of the Living Tarot podcast. She has been reading people her whole life and hearing energy since she was a young child.

She believes that everyone has the ability to connect deeply to their intuition and that tarot is an excellent tool for learning to trust yourself and learn to hear your own inner voice. Agreed. She is on a mission to break the paradigm of old fortune telling readings and instead strives to empower clients through collaborative sessions that help them connect with their own inner wisdom and move forward with confidence on aligned action steps.

Hi, Sheila!
sheila masterson: [00:01:51] Hi!! I'm so excited to be here.

ash alberg: [00:01:53] I'm so happy to have you here! Also, if anyone wants to hear the first time that we hopped on a podcast together they can go and listen to our Siri ... or our episode on your podcast, The Living Tarot. I'll make sure that the link is in the notes.

sheila masterson: [00:02:06] Yes!! Oh my gosh. I'm so excited to be a guest right now, instead of a host! Like I've been doing so much hosting that I'm like, oh, I don't need to have questions. Like I can just show up and be myself. I'm here for it.

ash alberg: [00:02:18] [Laughs.] I love it. I am also just so impressed with how much you have done with The Living Tarot. Like you just wrapped up season one, as we are recording this. And it was ... 50 episodes?

sheila masterson: [00:02:32] 50 episodes, which I can't believe either! And I, when I launched, I had like a bunch of episodes that came out at once. So it was like bingeable, like a Netflix binge fest kind of thing. But I can't like, even as I was going through and like recording the final episode, I was like, holy shit, like 50 episodes?? [Slight audio distortion.]

I can't even believe that this happened, especially like over the past year, because I only started in September of 2020.

ash alberg: [00:02:59] Oh my god. Yeah. I totally didn't even think of it. Like it's been ... well, so for those of you who like to listen to a podcast a week, ‘cause I don't know why you don't finish things ... but anyway that's still, like, you launched a shit ton of episodes at the beginning. I think like, more than what I am planning for season one for this podcast! [Both laugh.] [Ash snorts.]

But since then there have been weekly episodes and yeah, that's just you've put out like easily a year's worth of podcasts in eight months, no, eight-ish months. Seven or eight months?

sheila masterson: [00:03:34] Yeah. Yeah. And I'm so, I mean, I'm so ... and I'm sure you'll see this too, I'm so, like astonished and flattered and pumped about the number of people who I didn't really know who I just was like, “Hey, do you want to be on my podcast? That you've never heard of that? Like I just started doing, and it's just like a passion project?”

And everybody was like, yeah, a hundred percent, like I'm on board. And I was like ... and people that I like, fan girl over!

ash alberg: [00:03:58] Yeah. [Audio distortion.]

sheila masterson: [00:03:58] ... is on my podcast, we were talking and the whole time I'm like, oh, hi, welcome to the podcast. And in my head I'm like, oh my gawwdd!! [Both giggle.]

ash alberg : [00:04:06] Yeah. There's definitely some folks that I have like, on my list and some of them, like I've had interactions with in ... not in real life, but like, more than just like a, “like” on the Instagrams. But it's still, yeah, def intimidated to be talking to them.

And then there's other folks where I'm like, you are podcast goals and I've not mentioned it yet. I'm like, I need there to be like, at least a season out in the world so that if they have questions, they can go and listen to it.

sheila masterson: [00:04:36] Yes. Yeah.
ash alberg: [00:04:37] Yeah, I don’t know.
sheila masterson: [00:04:38] So exciting. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry for the tangent.

ash alberg: [00:04:42] [Laughs.] Nope. There's going to be so many tangents. But let's officially get started with our first question, which is, tell us a bit about you and what you do in the world.

sheila masterson: [00:04:50] Yeah! So, I am a tarot reader and I like to say that everything started with reading people like it says in my bio, but it took me like a good 30 years to realize that's what I was doing. So. Power to anyone who is like just coming into this in your like thirties, like seriously, I get it.

And the other thing is, I think people think if you had some sort of like spiritual gift or some sort of intuitive gift that you would just know, but I think the reality is, if your only

experience is hearing energy, for example, like I do, and you've never had another experience. You don't realize that's weird until other people break it down for you. So it wasn't until I went to my first Reiki energy work training that I had that revelation and I was like, ooohhh!! And all of a sudden, all of these things clicked into place.

So my whole life, like my mom would say, “Oh, you're such a good judge of character!” but I would like, know weirdly specific things about people when I met them. And I would say specific things to people and think that they had told me, but they were like, “I never told you that.” And I was like, oh, weird. I’m not supposed to know that. [Ash laughs.] And so, as I got older, I got better at recovering from that stuff. But I did that thing that everybody does where they like explain it away, basically.

So I could always like logic in a way to myself. And I am like inherently a pretty logical person. I come from a background of corporate project management. I still like, in my own business, do a lot of project management. And that's the way that my mind works a lot, but I basically had this revelation in my thirties.

And as I got into energy work, everything just started to click for me. It started with Reiki. And then I got into some other forms of energy work that I would say are like, not really ... I feel like everybody has their own signature when it comes to the energy to work. And so a lot of it is like my own personal thing.

So, I started to see people's past lives when I was doing sessions. And that was like, again, another thing that happened that I was just like, oh, okay, what the fuck? This is happening now.

Also I hope I can curse. I just assumed.
ash alberg: [00:06:54] I ... yeah, no. We're ... yeah. I haven't ... we need to have a

conversation about whether I need to put the explicit thing on ‘cause a hundred percent ...

sheila masterson: Yes!

ash alberg: Okay. Shit. Alright.

sheila masterson: [00:07:03] I have a ... I've a terrible potty mouth. So apologies ahead of time people.

ash alberg: [00:07:07] And no, then people have already been ... [Sheila laughs] ... if they've been listening to any other episodes, most of the time, I'm the one dropping the swears, but yeah, no, we're good.

sheila masterson: [00:07:14] Oh yeah, there'll be plenty. [Ash chuckles.]

So, it was that moment of realizing that these ... as I started to open up, more things were coming through. And not too long after that I found tarot, which ... I did with tarot what almost everybody does with tarot, which is try to memorize all of the cards as if I was memorizing vocabulary words in high school, and I was like, why isn't this working?!?

ash alberg: [00:07:37] Right. My god, the fucking worst. [Grumbles.]

sheila masterson: [00:07:41] And I like, I understand why that was my impulse and why that's everyone's impulse when they start. I get it, because we all want to do everything right. There's so many cards, I want to do it right. I need to do it the proper way. Like we all do the same thing.

So that's why I'm like ... people are always like, oh, I shouldn't do that. And I'm like, listen, we all do it. Like I've done it. Every reader, probably every reader at some point has done that. So, no shade, and I tried to do that. And I got frustrated, left the cards on my shelf and was like, fuck this, this is crazy. I don't understand how people do this.

And at the same time, I was coming into these mediumship gifts that I didn't believe in or ask for. And are very strong.

ash alberg: [00:08:16] ... or want ... [grumbles.]

sheila masterson: [00:08:17] Yeah. [Laughs.] And ... and very persistent at the time. And I didn't understand boundaries. So I learned from someone who basically like mentors people who have spiritual gifts, who's wonderful. Her name is Connie Bell Dickson, and she's amazing.

And so I started to get a handle on things to feel less scared of everything that was happening, which is the biggest thing. I think whenever you're going through any kind of ... I hate the word spiritual awakening, but that's ...

ash alberg: [00:08:45] Oh, no, that's a hundred percent. Like, you helped me through that six months ago. So I am ... I fully understand what we're talking about. [snorts.] Yeah.

sheila masterson: [00:08:53] Yeah, yeah! Because it's just ... it is scary and I think that fear is the thing that like shuts down intuition for sure. And so the more you can lean into that and not feel so afraid, the easier it is. So I finally got the impulse to go back to tarot and all of a sudden it was like, it just clicked.

And I could look at it and the same way that I could look at a person and see like whatever was coming up with them or hear whatever was coming up with them. When I would sit down with somebody else to read, it was like the cards were telling the story of the most important thing with that person. So when somebody sits down, I might get like 20 things.

And this is only if I'm trying to read them, let me like, put it out there ... ash alberg: [00:09:35] Or if you have really loud spirits ...
sheila masterson: [00:09:37] Right, right!
ash alberg: [00:09:38] ... and are annoying.

sheila masterson: [00:09:39] Boundaries are important. Like I can't state ... I can't overstate this enough. Like I don't just walk around reading people all day. I am very specific about when I do this.

So, I mean, when I sit down to do a reading, I might pick up like 20 things about the person. But what tarot does is show me what's most important in the moment and draw my eye to the story that's coming up for that person in that moment. And that's how it started. And what I do now is a lot of career and business readings because it combines that logical part of my brain and my background with the more witchy side of myself.

And I also teach tarot from a very practical standpoint. My course is called Practical Tarot for Everyday Intuitives. And it's really about bringing the spiritual side of things into your functional everyday life. Because as cool as ritual and spell and like all of that is, for a lot of people, it's either not accessible because maybe they have a traumatic religious background, they don't feel super comfortable with that, or they just feel like they can only participate in that if they're in like the perfect place.

And what I really seek to do is pull that down and be like, no, just go to it when you need to go to it, it doesn't need to be perfect. You don't need incense. Like whatever, do your thing, do it in your car, do it in the work bathroom. Whatever.

ash alberg: [00:10:50] I love all of that. And it's so funny ‘cause as you're talking about these things, I'm like also like we ... we met in an incubator for witches, which was great, but then also like we've worked together, like I've gotten readings from you and then also like we are friends and so you have helped me, and we're very similar humans, which is ...

sheila masterson: [00:11:15] [Laughs.] We are!

ash alberg: [00:11:15] And so you've also helped me go through all these things. So I'm sitting here and I'm like, oh yep, no, that totally makes sense. But I’m realizing that also for, like, people who don't know you, then a lot of this can feel like either just like very confusing or very inaccessible or they don't a hundred percent know like how that applies.

And I think, especially if they're, like you said, at the point of that, like, spiritual awakening, but not really understanding what the hell is going on, the ... I think I, I would really like for us to dig a little bit more into boundary stuff, because we have joked that each other has been like a mentor as far as boundary stuff.

sheila masterson: Yes!

ash alberg: And so like for me, I, and particularly with my spirits and guides who just hang out all the time, now I talk to them on a pretty regular basis and they're there on a pretty regular basis, which is great. They were always there. I just blocked them for a really long time without being aware of it. [Sheila laughs.]

And then the blocks came down one at one point last fall and I was like, oh shit, here we go again. And then with some guidance from you, managed to make better contact, actually through tarot because my tarot cards are how I get a little bit more clarity about like, how my guides are trying to talk to me. [Sheila says “yes!” enthusiastically in the background a few times as Ash speaks.] ‘Cause some are a little bit more ... not obtuse, but like they're less ...

sheila masterson: [00:12:38] They can be very big.

ash alberg: [00:12:39] Yeah. And it's just like really big energy. And it's like, the one ghost in particular, spirit, who hangs out with me, who's ... turns out is just like really old wise energy that is like not subtle at all and scared the shit out of me.

sheila masterson: Yes!! [Giggles.]

ash alberg: ‘Cause I was like, what the fuck is this energy? This thing is scaring me. And then it turned out that oh no, it's actually just trying to help and it's like pounding me over the head with how it's trying to help, ‘cause it doesn't know another way of doing it.

sheila masterson: [00:13:07] Right! And I think like sometimes that subtlety is there and sometimes it's not. And I always joke that it feels a little bit like a riddle. Like it reminds me a little bit of like Star Wars, how it always felt like Yoda was like giving like a riddle to Luke. And Luke was like, can you just like, fucking tell me like what the thing is??

And I was like, this is how I feel all the time. Tell me the thing. Don't make me solve a riddle. This is so annoying.

ash alberg: [00:13:29] And I feel like tarot helps us to go through that, which is useful. I love that your episodes recently, not recently, through the whole season on Living Tarot, like you've been breaking down the cards for folks, which I find so helpful. Like I ... it's so funny because I was doing my Swatching the Tarot little side project, which is super nerdy and I love it. And it's basically how I've combined like ...

sheila masterson: [00:13:54] I love it.

ash alberg: [00:13:55] ... Knitting and tarot study and natural dye local color palette study, like altogether. ‘Cause I'm a fucking nerd. And, but I also feel like since then, like since I went through that process and just started doing more studies, so far I've only done the major Arcana, but as a result of that I’m weirdly pulling a lot more major Arcana in my spreads lately.

Like when I first started reading, I never pulled them and now they show up on a fairly regular basis for me. But I understand them intuitively as a result of just like doing a little more in-depth study with them in my Swatching the Tarot project. And weirdly it's now the minor Arcana where I'm like, I don't ... I actually need my guidebook to break things down.

It's starting to feel a little more intuitive, but I love the way that you approach it in terms of yeah, we all try to memorize them, ‘cause that's the way that everybody is taught, but it's not actually ... it can actually stop you from actually getting the messages through that you need to be getting through.

sheila masterson: [00:14:57] Right! And a lot of these issues are like, the entire way that a lot of us, at least in North America have learned - and honestly, probably most of the world -is through this like institutionalized wisdom. So we think that there's one way to learn, which like, just over the past couple of years, with people who are on the autism spectrum and have all different forms of and different styles of learning, we've learned that there's not

actually just one way to learn things, which is ... it’s crazy that we could ever believe that to begin with!

But I think because we, from the time that we are really young, learn to get wisdom from outside of ourselves, when you try to turn it around and be like, no, just listen to your own wisdom, it's what the fuck? What do you mean listen to my own wisdom?? Somebody else is supposed to tell me the thing.

And so it's so natural for us to be in that head space of, let me just learn this card. Let me just memorize this thing. And yes, like to a certain extent when you're starting out, like you need a little bit of context to know what's going on with those cards. But what I really wanted to do with the podcasts, like you were saying, is bring the human experience of those cards to life.

So, so then it makes more sense to people because ultimately what the tarot is ... 78 cards that are all just archetypes of different human experiences. And the reason why ... one second. The reason why there are those moments of oh, there's a negative card or a scary-looking card is because there are negative and scary human experiences!

Like it's not all going to be like, sunshine because that's not all of our experience. Look at the past fucking year! Like this shit is crazy! [Both laugh.] And I'm like, I mean, that is like Tower energy. And if we didn't have a card to reflect that, like it would just feel like bullshit.

You know? Like, that's not the Lovers. That's not, it's not all ...

ash alberg: [00:16:47] I mean, if it's the Lovers, it's like the most toxic fucking relationship. [Sheila laughs.] But I think the thing that I also really love about the way that you approached tarot, that I have begun ... I feel like it's almost like the queering of the tarot is that, don't look at these things as being also inherently positive or negative.

There are shadow sides to things, and it's also like the end of one thing does not automatically mean like a full end to everything, right? Like death and grief. I mean, I, when we did my reading for the ... for this year, 2021, I mean like this ... and your reading and my own personal reading, like I, I came to you for a career reading for the year, I did my own regular pull for the year, and then I got my astrology from Davis.

All of them were like, cool,this year is not actually going to be easy. The second half of the year, which we are rapidly coming towards at the time that we are recording, this is just going to be full of a lot of grief for me. And I'm like, shit. I don't know what to expect from that. And I'm like a little bit dreading it and I just have to trust. I actually really appreciated our reading because it put a lot of the scarier things with astrology that I don't fully understand ...

sheila masterson: [00:18:02] Yeah.
ash alberg: [00:18:02] ... put them in a little bit more context.

I find tarot a little grounding, more grounding for me. But I think actually, this kind of takes me into something that I'd love to chat with you about because we've already been chatting

about it outside of this, which is the ... when you are learning to listen to your intuitive self and learning to read cards intuitively and do all of these things and tune into, what are the messages that you're receiving? When you are an anxious person ... [Laughs sharply.]

sheila masterson: [00:18:29] Yes!

ash alberg: [00:18:30] ... like separating out, when is it anxiety and when is it intuition? I'm definitely recognizing that. Right now, the way that I am looking towards the second half of this year, anytime I start to worry about it, that is my anxiety at this point in time, because I don't actually ... there's ... nothing has happened yet.

And I just have these ... not warnings, but just like a heads’ up that hey, there's going to be heavy shit, but I don't actually know how that heavy shit is going to manifest, where in my life it will be manifesting from. I don't know the specific situation. And so worrying about it right now is my anxiety, not my intuition being like “heads’ up.”

sheila masterson: [00:19:08] Yes. Yeah.

So, okay. So there's a few things that I've noticed really come up with people when I talk about intuition and the biggest thing is that because first of all, just with everything that's happened in the past, like year and a half, everybody is anxious right now. That's like the first thing.

So even people who never had an experience of being anxious are like learning what it means to have severe anxiety and for everybody else, and I, myself, as a person, having a background in trauma, have dealt with anxiety for like more of my life than not. I, I can't even remember a time before anxiety.

ash alberg: [00:19:48] Yup.

sheila masterson: [00:19:49] I think so, I've navigated this whole thing with that ... and I will still have these moments where I'm like, oh, this is anxiety running the show right now. And I think that when I think about the way that anxiety works and the way that intuition works is ultimately, what's the story that's coming up with this. Right?

And also they tend to sound a little different. So when I hear, when I listen for anxiety - and I'll talk about everything in terms of hearing, because I'm like a very clairaudient person, like I have a lot of hearing stuff that happens with my intuition - so I always say voice sound, but it might be feeling sensation. Like it can be really different for everybody, but that's the strongest thing for me.

And I will get other impulses, but that's usually like the biggest thing for me. So when I hear my anxiety, it's usually squawking in my ear, like just like super loud. And it's like this story that comes up, that's if ... I think about when I was leaving my corporate job, it was something like, if you leave this job, you're never going to be able to ... [Nervous chuckle.] it sounds so crazy.

[Both talking at the same time.]

ash alberg: [00:20:49] Nope. I'm already like, I know exactly where this is going.

sheila masterson: [00:20:52] People with anxiety are going to get it. “If you leave this job, you're never going to be able to afford a mortgage And then the kids, that I don't have yet, are never going to be able to have friends over from school because you're going to live in an apartment and you're going to be like those weird apartment people. And they're going to be embarrassed to bring people over and then they're going to be made fun of in school.

And like this whole thing, that's [audio distortion] and I'm like, I'm not married. [Ash cackles.] We're not trying to buy a house. We have no children. [Ash laughs.] Like, don't have to have children. It's this crazy story that just runs away with itself. And it's like that spinning frenzied energy that's a million what-ifs.

And the other thing that I say when it comes to trying to recognize anxiety, as opposed to intuition is, in college I used to play this game with my roommate, because we would get really nervous about going on first dates and we called it “what ifs.” And it's basically letting your anxiety run wild.

So she would sit there like, before her date and she was like, what if I show up and he doesn't talk the entire time? So you start with these like very basic things that like, could happen. And then I would be like, what if he opens up his wallet to pay at the end and there's a bunch of pictures of his mom inside?

And she's like, what if he asks for a lock of my hair? And it just kept getting like more ridiculous. And then by the time she was like going on the date, she was like, okay, these are the most ridiculous scenarios I've ever heard. And as long as it's not any of those I feel pretty chill about this.

It's probably just a normal date, but I feel like it's like expending some of that anxious energy is sometimes enough just to get a little bit of clarity. And then on the other side of things, when you're trying to ... I would say you can't turn off the anxiety, so don't try to be like, I'm going to ignore this. It's not going to happen.

I can't tell you how much I wish it would happen, but it's not going to it's just, it's not. And the other thing is like in the spiritual world, I feel like there's this whole idea of “crush the ego” when that anxiety comes from the ego and of trying to protect ourselves and it serves a purpose.

It keeps us in our human body. It keeps us safe in actual dangerous situations and it has a function. And also its function has changed over time. And so, it's maybe not as well-adjusted as it should be. So ...

ash alberg: [00:23:05] Yes.

sheila masterson: [00:23:06] But the more you try to pretend that it's not there or ignore it, the louder it will get, because it will be persistent. So like, the right move is not to try to be like, this doesn't exist. It's more to acknowledge it.

Like that “what if” game, to be like, yes, thank you, anxiety. I hear you there. Totally. Those are valid concerns. [Ash laughs.] And also I don't need that exact information right now, but I'll let you know if I do.

ash alberg: [00:23:30] Yep. And also is very important.

sheila masterson: [00:23:35] Yes! Exactly. And then on the more intuitive side of things, I find it ... That voice is, first of all, I feel it in a different part of my body than like that squawking in my ear. And it's much softer and it's not fear-based. It's not like a million different fears that all these things are gonna go wrong and it tends to be more of a gentle prodding.

It's not like, this thing is going to happen and then this thing is going to happen and then this thing is going to happen. It's more hey, maybe try this, like maybe try this today. And the more you can tune into that, the easier it's going to be. And the other caveat that I will give about intuition, which I talk about on the podcast a lot, is try not to start with the highest stakes thing, because that's going to be the hardest thing to shut your intuition off of.

So if I had started listening to my intuition with leaving my job, I would have been fucked because like I was so anxious about that. To me, having a corporate job is stability. Like it was a hugely destabilizing thing. And if I didn't already have access to that more intuitive part of myself that would not have been a good place to start.

And even though I did have that, I went to ... and I encourage readers to always go to other readers, especially if it's something high stakes like that. I went to three other types of readings, like along the way, when I knew that I was leaving, to be like, am I still on the right track? Am I still on the right track?

And I knew that I was, but I needed that validation in that moment because that was something that was very scary to me.

ash alberg: [00:24:57] Yes. That makes so much sense. And I also really love like how you, when you excuse me, when you talked about it being where you are hearing something, because for your clairaudio. And for me, I am less, I hear things less than I see and feel things very intensely. And as soon as you said that, it's so funny because the I've also ... [Coughs.] excuse me, one second.

sheila masterson: [00:25:28] Yeah.

ash alberg: [00:25:28] With my EMDR therapy, I become very attuned to the way that my body feels as it is processing something fully and letting it go versus when it is getting stuck and how it gets stuck in my body, because it is like old grief or old trauma, and it's not ready to let go yet. And then once it starts to let go ... but it's like a really big, old thing that has a lot of processing to do.

The correlation between that and my anxiety is, oh shit, this is like the way that my body feels when it's doing this thing. And so, realizing the moments when my body is actually just processing something, and then lets it go, and it goes through and it's fine, versus when my

anxiety starts to kick in and it sits in a very different part of my body and feels like a different level of vibration than when my intuition has kicked in and I am there.

Like my anxiety exists very much in my shoulders and gets stuck in the shoulder blades a lot of the time or stuck at the very top of my spine. Whereas my intuition is much more in my gut. Like it's very attached to my whole gastrointestinal system.

And realizing the differences between those two and where they are sitting, I mean, it's going to be a very interesting, I think, longer term. Talking with my anxiety and negotiating with it in terms of like ...

sheila masterson: [00:26:59] Yeah!

ash alberg: [00:27:00] ... giving it more space because it is there to protect us. I mean, it's doing it in a fucked up way that is not always that helpful. But it's, it is a function that our body has created, which is a wise body to, to protect us. And it's just firing overtime because it ... we haven't processed the thing yet.

sheila masterson: [00:27:23] Yes! Right.

And the other thing is ... it was funny ‘cause I've studied... in no way am I like a clinical health professional, let me just put that out there right now. But because I am a person who has some significant childhood trauma and PTSD, I've spent a lot of time reading and researching and going to years and years of therapy and learning about the way that specifically childhood trauma affects the brain.

And when I first learned that when you have trauma, like before the age of ... I think it's like before the age of 12, especially repeat trauma, not just like a one-time event, your brain literally develops differently. So you are flooded with anxiety more, but you are better able to react to that anxiety and much worse able to deregulate that anxiety.

So, your body is used to operating at that higher stakes situation. So for example, one time, my brakes failed on the highway when I was going like 60 ...

ash alberg: Oh my god!

sheila masterson: Yes! And I had children in the back of my car! I like, literally never have children in my car. That's the one day I was babysitting my little cousins and the brakes failed. And I was able to pull over and use the emergency brake and stayed calm the whole time.

And then once the car was stopped, it was like, that was the end of me being productive for the rest of the day. Like I could barely stand up. Yeah, so, I ...

ash alberg: [00:28:46] I am just amazed that you managed to be controlled a long enough [time] to then ... ‘cause I'm like, this is my fear of driving at this particular moment of time, that I am going to therapy to work through, is that like in the moment when my anxiety kicks in. Which it does more in driving situations, I freeze.

And so my fear and that I am trying to like process through and with the help of therapy, like reprogram my brain into knowing that I like, with both practice of and muscle memory from that, and then also creating new affirmations, which is that I can make safe choices when in those situations. I have like, deep fear that either I can't control the situation or that in the moment I will freeze, because that is a thing that I do, is that I, in fight or flight situations, I frequently freeze for at least long enough that in a car situation is dangerous.

sheila masterson: [00:29:48] Yes.
ash alberg: [00:29:49] So. It seems to be specifically cars. Other times ... so like everything

else ... fight, very easy, it's a very simple solution.

sheila masterson: [00:29:56] And I do think like, it's a little bit different for everyone, but I think the moment that I learned that my brain was like literally physically different. I was like ... part of me was like pissed. [Laughs.] I was like ... I mean, which I think is like a valid emotion for anybody who’s had that experience.

But it also, I think in a lot of ways has helped me be more gracious to my own experience of dealing with anxiety and being like, no, this is just different and it just means that you have to deal with things differently. So instead of trying to operate within the system that already exists and the way that people think things should be, I really learned a lot about managing anxiety through that. So I've recognized how much it's always going to be a part of everything and like, I could go through.

I mean, I've already gone through 20 years of therapy. I could go through 20, 50, more years of therapy, and my brain will still be that way. And I can get better at managing it, but I'm never going to like, take that away. Like it's always going to be there. And so I think having that connection and realizing ... I love that you talked about how it shows up for you.

So I would say for me, it's the anxiety is like ... in my head. It feels like that's where it is. It's very loud. I'll feel it in my shoulders sometimes, like you're saying but that's where I'll hear it the most. And then my intuition is almost like, behind my sternum, in the very center of my chest and like just a completely different quality.

So where like the anxiety, I feel like it's like nails on chalkboard ... [audio distortion.] ash alberg: Yes.
sheila masterson: I feel like ... Yeah!

I feel like the intuition is almost like a warm blanket, like I'm just like, oh, okay. And it always feels more grounding. Like when I listen to that, it feels to me like having both feet on the ground, just feeling very like stable and yeah, this is the thing. And we know this, you know?

ash alberg: [00:31:40] Yes. Yes, so much. So I guess we've talked a lot about it actually, but can you maybe expand a bit more on like how ritual and magic and your particular gifts, like how they first showed up for you and you like, came into realizing this is a thing, and so I need to work with it?

And then also, the work that you do is very specifically with those gifts, but like maybe go into that a little bit more. And I would especially love for you to talk a bit more about like, when you go into readings ... because you are actually a trained medium, but that it's an exhausting fucking work, and so you don't do it, but it frequently shows up in your readings because it's just that it's just a skill that is there.

And also sometimes you have clients who have very loud guides like I do ... sheila masterson: [00:32:37] Right. Right. [Laughs.]
ash alberg: [00:32:37] ... that demand to be heard.
sheila masterson: [00:32:38] Exactly.

[Both laugh.]
ash alberg: [00:32:40] Like, unpack that a little bit please.

sheila masterson: [00:32:41] Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, so I will say that, I saw things when I was young. I heard things when I was young, scared the shit out of me. I pretended it wasn't happening. I blocked it out for a very long time.

And then when it started showing up again I didn’t have those mediumship experiences. And like I said, I was, and I haven't mentioned this here but I talked about it on the podcast, I was raised ... I'm second generation, in this country, Irish American. So I come from a very Irish Catholic family, and this is, like, all of this stuff ... like the only rituals we do are like Catholic mass, all of those rituals.

And I went to Catholic school, very Catholic family. My parents are very involved in the church, and I never connected with that type of ritual. It never spoke to me. And I saw that my parents would leave like mass and feel great. And I never felt that way. And I'm always like ... I don't know. I just never connected with it.

And so I always felt like I was the weird one. And then when all of this stuff started happening I was like, I can't describe to people how much this was like, not in my upbringing, not in my head as a thing that could happen. And it just started happening. When I started to open up to it more, it came through stronger and again, setting boundaries was super important for me because again, anxiety, trauma, PTSD, like I'm not really open to ...

And like you said about seeing if I had started seeing stuff, which I did see stuff when I was a kid, but if I had started seeing stuff like straight up, like a spirit just like standing in my house, I would've been like, nope, done. Get out. Like I'm ...

ash alberg: [00:34:09] ... 7 years old. Very clear [indecipherable.]

sheila masterson: [00:34:12] Yeah! [Laughs.] Even still every once in a while I'll see something and I'm like, excuse you. What are you doing?

ash alberg: [00:34:18] I love that though. You legit, like your boundaries with spirits are literally the way that I do boundaries with people. And when I found out ... like when we talked and I realized that was an option, I was like, oh thank fuck. It's easier than I thought!

But you like, legit are like, excuse you, fuck off. You are not welcome here right now. [Laughs.]

sheila masterson: [00:34:36] I know, and I'm like, listen, I always say I have human rules for my spirits. So you can't just like lurk in the basement, like come to the front door and see if I’m available. Don't just lurk in my house, that's not okay.

And I do think ... I will say for everybody, if you are a person that does spiritual work or if you are connected or if you do work out of your house, you're probably gonna need to clear it regardless. It's not just, I set these boundaries once and they listen all of the time. It's like people, like they don't have good boundaries.

So like I've had to create rules over time of what I will and won't do. And a big thing was the mediumship stuff, because even when that started and I was talking to these spirits of deceased loved ones of people, it is exhausting. I don't find that to be a natural state of things for me. And even when that first started, I never felt like that was supposed to be my main thing.

I feel like it serves something else that I'm doing that I don't quite understand. And it's a different channel than like ... I say, channel, but it's basically like tuning on the radio station. Again, all audio stuff!

ash alberg: [00:35:38] Yeah.

sheila masterson: [00:35:38] But for me, like, that's one channel. And then the human channel is like a slightly different channel and that's the one that I've been doing forever. And I also think is a little bit born out of trauma as well, of like you need ... if you grow up in that kind of environment, you need to be able to read people and you need to be able to read the change in the room and all of that.

So I think that's part of how I got really good at reading energy. So there's like the human channel and then there's like a couple like stations over from that is like the, for lack of a better term, like spirit channel, I guess, is like the way I would call it. And that's usually like the higher self of the person, the spirit guides of the person.

And that is much more to ... to me anyway, this might be different for other people, but for me, that's very close to the human channel. So I find it very easy to switch over and I can go between those very easily. So sitting down to do a tarot reading is like clicking over between those two stations.

And I can usually tell that, I can usually tell who or what I'm talking to. If I'm talking to some version of that person that's sitting there, or if I'm talking to one of their guides, like it will come through slightly differently. And I, I consider myself to, to channel a lot.

So sometimes, like a lot of times I don't even realize that I'm doing it, that I'm switching back and forth. So second nature from doing it since I was like a child that sometimes it's hard for me to explain to people exactly what I'm doing, but anybody who's had a reading with me will know that I stop at certain points and I'll listen for a second.

Or they'll talk to me as I'm speaking, which I'm like, it's a special kind of skill to be able to listen and speak and connect to the person. I always feel like I can hold like so many different things at once. And that's definitely something that I've had to learn how to do over time.

And also the boundaries come in there too, where I'm like, okay, don't speak while I'm speaking. Let me finish this. I promise I will get to you. And some are more pushy and like more in my face than, than others!

ash alberg: [00:37:37] Yeah. Yeah. I actually very clearly recall [that] happening when we were doing our reading at the beginning of the year where you were like, okay, you guys need to stop. ‘Cause you were like trying to read a thing and whatever the hell they were saying was apparently very important according to them.

sheila masterson: [00:37:54] Yes! And that's the other thing that'll happen is ... so some my ... if I'm just talking with like my people, they understand, for the most part, how to communicate with me and they'll take turns and they have a different kind of vibe and I can always tell which one of them it is too, by how, like, how the communication comes through.

But sometimes I will have this moment with clients where they're like, “This bitch needs to hear this thing! Listen, let me tell you!” They’re just like, tell her this!! Kelly, calm down, gawd! And I'm like, I’m not her, don't be mad at me! Don't shoot the messenger here.

But I do think it's really interesting and I always tell people ... a lot of my clients are first timers, like it's their first time reading, and they are curious, but they don't totally know how it works. And I always say, they may talk to you in a reading as well. So if some question is popping into your head as I'm talking, I always tell my clients, if something comes up, just interrupt me.

It's not going to mess me up. They won't let me forget. Like they won't let me forget something. They won't let me miss something, so if a question comes up, sometimes it comes to the client. Sometimes it comes to me.

ash alberg: [00:38:59] Yeah.

sheila masterson: [00:38:59] And I always try to leave the space for that. And to really come in with a question that you need answered. I find people get like timid and then like in the last 10 minutes, they'll be like, I really need to know this thing. And I'm like, just like lead with that!

I don't think any question is weird or stupid. I've heard it all. I'm not going to judge you for an affair. I'm not going to judge you for wanting to leave your job. I'm not going to judge you for how you feel about being a mother.

Like none of those things are my job. Like my job is only to read what's there and to act as a mirror that reflects stuff back to you, because I think ultimately that's what tarot is. It's like this mirror. And, I say I don't like the whole fortune telling things, even though I will see things about people, like what the ... like I do year ahead readings and stuff, even though I see that energy and I can see the potential of things, I believe in free will.

And so you could make a completely different move and tomorrow everything that I told you would be worthless because you decided to take a 180. And I don't like anybody to feel doomed to a fate that they don't like. Even like what you were saying about the year ahead, I like to do that because I think it helps people be prepared for the worst-case scenario.

And for me as a person with anxiety, it helps settle my anxiety to just know what's coming. Even if it's not something like ... even if I pull the Temperance card, which I've such like a mixed relationship with, and it's not a bad card, but it's just the card that I personally struggle with, I'm going to be like, oh cool. I get to be patient. Fun. [Sarcasm.] [Ash cackles.]

My favorite thing ... I've many virtues of which that is not really one. ash alberg: [00:40:23] Yep. Fire signs, oh god. [Sheila laughs.]

But yeah, I mean, I love all of that though. And I think it's really important what you just said about how we do have free will and you can make a decision or something can change that then throws everything sideways. Which I also think is why it is important for us to build an ongoing relationship and practice because then, if something goes sideways, then we can check in and be like, is this still relevant?

[Birds chirping in the background.] Because sometimes it is, right?

sheila masterson: [00:40:50] Yeah! Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's so important because what you're doing then in that moment is empowering yourself. You're not like, dooming yourself to something that comes up in the cards.

You’re saying, okay. I know that I'm going to struggle with this thing. And so therefore in May, I'm going to make sure I have extra therapy appointments scheduled, or I'm going to make sure that I have a reading scheduled with somebody who's going to reiterate everything for me that I'm nervous about. Like there, there's a reason that those things can help us prepare.

And ultimately what I strive to do in every reading is empower people with action steps and things that they can actually do instead of surrendering to whatever fate awaits you. Because I truly believe that the function of all of these like, predictive mediums is to set you up for success so that you can seek out what you need in that moment.

ash alberg: [00:41:43] Yes. This is also making me think that once we hop off this call, I need to book another reading. [Both laugh.] Like, ah shit.

sheila masterson: [00:41:50] That was exactly what I was going for.

ash alberg: [00:41:54] [Laughs emphatically.] It's true though. sheila masterson: Come into my web. [Joking.]

ash alberg: Yeah. I like, I think, and I think this is also why ... I mean, Davis is such a fucking powerful astrologer and I really do not understand astrology well enough at this stage for ... even like reading my fucking Chani like horoscopes it's ... I'm now at the stage, like astrology used to be a thing that felt like it was preparing me, and I no longer feel prepared most of the time that I see my readings now, because I ... now that I am understanding that all of the other planets are at play, but just not understanding how they are at play necessarily, and it's just here's some big predictive energy and shit's gonna go down.

And it's going to be big and I'm like, how is it going to be big? Like technically now that I'm thinking about it, like I've already gone through two of the three big chunks of the year that I was told, like, these are going to be big. And I'm like, okay, shit. And now I'm looking at them. I'm like, okay. Like technically nothing catastrophic has happened.

If anything, I'm actually in a pretty solid position. Anytime something that really big has felt like it is happening, I'm ... I always have control over it. And I feel like I'm actually more prepared this year to deal with things and have the tools and the support system around me to deal with shit.

That being said, I'm still terrified.

sheila masterson: [00:43:25] Here's the other thing that I noticed, like after years of doing readings, and I talked about this on episode 50 of the podcast, like a couple of the things that I've noticed is that often it's not until like hindsight that we realize how big some of these things were. And even from what you're saying, one of the big things might be that you're like not panicking in these moments of like where you would have before.

And like the revelation of being like, oh, like ...

ash alberg: [00:43:54] Yep.

sheila masterson: [00:43:54] I'm actually more ahead of things than I thought I was. And I'm actually doing better than I thought I was. And like that in itself is a revelation that's like big, you know what I mean?

So I think ... so often I have these things with clients and it makes sense in the moment and then they go through it and I'll get an email later where they're like, holy shit, like in the session, I was like, okay. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. That makes sense. And like when it actually came down to it and the thing happened, it made so much more sense. But again, it's always like I'm like a little bit ahead of like where the ... like where their mind is or where their like, revelations are.

I do think that's one of the things that's important, but as you were saying that I was hearing that in my head. So that's the other way that my, my gifts work is sometimes when one of my friends is talking or even they'll be like, “I'm thinking about this idea or this idea.”

I talk to my friends about business stuff all the time, and I'll be like, ooh, that! [Audio distortion.] I don't know what it is about that, but that's something good. Or I'll hear something, like in what you're saying. Drives Mike crazy. My, my partner crazy. [Audio distortion.] Because I’ll like your stuff sometimes, and then he's always, “Whaaat?” He like makes this face and he's like, “Whaaat?”

[Both laugh.]
I'm like, like there's something about that.

ash alberg: [00:45:04] Yes, that feels ... thank you for that. [Laughs.] It feels good. ‘Cause yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I mean we literally just ... tax season has just come and gone with extensions because of COVID et cetera, blah blah, and I got hit with a way bigger tax bill than I was anticipating and was fine to deal with it, right?

It was this moment of like shit. Okay. Off we go, we deal with it. Now we need to rebuild the buffer. And like, when I think of ... if that had happened, I mean, if it had happened last year, I would have been fucked, period. If it had happened the year before, I would have been fucked and freaked out, which I actually did.

And it was a significantly smaller amount the year before. But it ... yeah. I think that the idea of being a more grounded creature and settling in more, especially as a triple fire sign who has some like pretty serious watery critters popping around, the idea of ... and also being such an anxious creature and having identified as being an anxious creature for so long, the idea of being solid and the idea of actually being able to handle shit is actually terrifying.

That feels like a very big ...

sheila masterson: [00:46:14] Yes. Yeah. It's its own trial. Exactly. Because it's ... you are shifting identity too, because even though you are still an anxious person, your attitude towards it and your ability to manage it is different. And so I think anytime you introduce change to an anxious person, even if it's like a positive change, can be very like, what's happening?? I need to panic now!

ash alberg: [00:46:39] Yes. Oh my god. Yeah. I need to panic now. It feels so big. Even though I, every time I do start to panic, I'm like, no, this is not healthy for us. We need to eat food. We need to drink water. We need to take our tinctures. We're going to switch out our coffee for some Tulsi and lemon with ... it's no, sweet pea, we're going to get this shit.

But it is also, yeah, I think the identity shift portion feels weird. And I think also there's been, I mean, ongoing mindset work which like, especially for us as small biz owners is like ongoing, but in particular, the idea of breaking through some particularly major mindset work around, like staying small or what is possible, or it's okay if I only have this much.

And now being like, fuck no, this is my dream. This is what I want. It's absolutely achievable. We are on track and let's get our shit together so that we stay on track is ... it's a weird thing. And it's also interesting interacting with other people who are not in that same mindset space. Because yeah, I don't know.

I think, especially when we are as intuitive as we both are then we also draw a lot of energy off of people and it is like very clear when it's okay, your energy is actually not helping right now.

sheila masterson: [00:47:57] Yeah. And I think that's important too. Like one of the things that you're saying I think is important for people to hear which is, just because I have a connection to my intuition that's strong doesn't mean that in these moments it's so much easier for me.

I think in some things it's easier. I think I have a different sense of knowing, but is the surrender to that experience easier? No, absolutely not. [Ash laughs.] Do I still think it's crazy? Yeah. All the time.

Like that's just truth. And I hear people say all the time, “I can't do what you can do” or “I just don't have your confidence.” And I'm like, listen, as a double fire sign, I'm a Leo and Sagittarius rising, I will say that a lot of this is fake it ‘till you make it.

And actually, funny enough, I had a palm reading yesterday and she saw that on my palms, which was really funny. And I was like, that is absolutely true. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: [00:48:47] That is so interesting!
sheila masterson: [00:48:50] Yeah. She was like, I can see like some of ... she could literally

see imposter syndrome on my palms, which I was like, fuuuuuck! ash alberg: [00:48:56] Shit!

sheila masterson: [00:48:57] I was like, this is crazy! I know, it's so funny. But I really, I think that's one of the things that I like to say to people, because I think you need to hear that. You need to hear that it's not just suddenly easy and that there are certain things that are always easier.

Like, I will say business decisions are easier for me to make than personal life decisions around, especially around relationships. And especially around romantic relationships. That's not a thing that I expect to ever be really good about intuitively on a personal level. For other people, sure. For myself, not so much because I have so much of my own anxiety that like lives in that space.

So that kind of stuff, I will probably always struggle with. Annoying, but also true. And not trying to force yourself to be ... to go against the grain of what feels ... like not trying to force myself to be good in my relationship. Like I've gotten much better. I'm better at soothing that anxiety, I'm better at listening to intuitive impulses about that, but that will never be a thing that I'm strong at the way that I'm strong at other things.

ash alberg: [00:50:00] Oh that feels soooo true and validating [Laughs.] And also to just be like, okay, with the fact. And I mean, it, Mike is wonderful because he provides space for being the way that you need to be. But I think, especially as anxious creatures, as intuitive creatures, we can scare ... And as with as much fire in our charts as we both have, we scare the shit out of people a lot of time and especially our romantic partners!

And like you and I have discussed how, in romantic relationships, especially with our anxiety at play and especially with, like, trust issues and like all of these things that manifest in really intense ways for us, that having partners who are able to deal with the fact that, this is gonna happen. I don't actually need you to do anything about it necessarily, but I'm gonna tell you it's happening because me articulating this to you is way better than me being like a passive aggressive shit, because you are triggering a thing in me and I haven't quite ... like I'mma tell you that this is where I'm at right now, or that I'm having a really anxious day or that, like I, I am like stuck in this particular spiral and it has nothing to do with you, but it's like a thing.

Also that, I think, especially because we don't live in a society that is particularly good at help ... like allowing people to be big emotionally, it is, it can be very scary for partners when you're telling them, “I'm having these really big feels and I am going to express it out loud to you in a very clear way.” And then for them to feel like they don't ... it, like you don't need to do anything, I'm just letting you know.

And also this is actually like much healthier than me not letting you know, because if I don't let you know, it's going to come out, it's just not going to come out in a particularly useful way. Like I am just giving you a heads’ up that this is the current state of my being and you don't need to actually do anything about it.

I'm managing it, we’re good, like we're fine, but.

sheila masterson: [00:52:17] Yes. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So this is so funny with what you're saying, ‘cause I'm like maybe like a level up from where you would describe yourself with astrology. Like, I have a pretty good understanding of my own chart. And so I, I'm, like I said, a Leo, so I have the Sun, Mars, and Mercury all in Leo.

ash alberg: [00:52:35] Oh shit!
sheila masterson: [00:52:36] ... in my eighth house.

So, so it's intense in there and that's like really strong, like war energy, like I wanna fight. And also I want to talk about everything. Mercury in Leo is like so much of like outward expression.

And also, I would say I'm like an extrovert's extrovert. Like I need to process my emotions out loud. I need to talk through everything. And my partner is not. That is like his nightmare.

[Both laugh.]

So realizing that's a thing that I need to do, that he is not required to do in the same way, unless it's some sort of interaction that like, we're trying to talk through it together, is ... has been like a revelation, I think, for both of us.

And also I can remember, because I feel everything very intensely and like the sun in the eighth house, especially in Leo, is “let me shine light onto all the dark things. Let's look at everything dark and scary,” and there's also like some pretty significant like mediumship, like stuff with that placement as well, where you're, yeah, of course, like this makes so much sense. So you know, the house of death and like finances and everything.

I'm like, of course this makes sense. But I remember really early on in this relationship, and we've been together now six years, so it's been awhile, but really early on, we had a bad fight. And I almost never talk to my mother about relationship stuff because, again, like no shade to anybody who, that's their situation, but my parents were high school sweethearts and they've only really dated each other.

Like they have one really significant relationship, which like power to them ...
ash alberg: [00:54:10] I don't know, but also I don't understand that.
sheila masterson: [00:54:12] Right! Yeah. It's so different for them.
ash alberg: [00:54:13] I'm always amazed when it works well, but I don't understand it.

sheila masterson: [00:54:17] Yes! It ... it's so different from my experience. So my mom has never had a whole, I mean, not that she doesn't have relationship advice, but she's never had like breakup advice or like even like conflict. Like it's not that my parents don't fight about stuff, but I think like for the most part, they get along pretty well and they don't have super significant conflicts.

Like they have the same belief system. There's a reason that their relationship has worked and it's because like they have a lot of the same values, like ...

ash alberg: [00:54:40] I literally, my jaw has dropped right now. Cause I'm like, what does that look like? [Laughs anxiously.] How do you ...

sheila masterson: [00:54:45] Here's the other thing that happens. And I remember ... Again, I'm getting on 12 different tangents, but I promise I have a purpose here. I was ... I remember reading this article in the New York times about couples that meet and grow up together. So meet, either like in their early twenties and grow up together, and those who meet in their thirties and how, when you grow up together, it's much easier to get along with each other to understand each other. You've come of age together and you work as like a, an ecosystem, but you struggle with personal identity, which I will say both of them definitely do, you know?

Again, no shade to my parents. I love them. They're great. But on the other side of things, the people who meet like, in their thirties or when they're pretty much established on their own, are then trying to combine two different worlds. And like, all this conflict comes up because you're not assured to have the same values and you're trying to negotiate all of those different things. And it's very hard to find somebody who lines up with you in the exact same way.

And so my purpose in saying all of this is that I remember having this conversation with her. And I was so upset. So she had come on ... she actually came over, and I'm lucky to live close to my parents. So she came over and she said something to the effect of ... and it's going to sound like she's saying something negative, but she's not. My mom is just very different than me, and actually my mom is an Aries. Which is funny. Hi Willow! [Talking to Ash’s dog.]

But she was basically like, the way that you feel things and like the intensity with which like you come into all of these different interactions, it's different than the way other people do. And I've had 30 some years to get used to it, and I still don't fully understand it because I understand that I don't feel things the same way. But like she was basically saying, you need to give him some time to understand that this is just like how you are, because it is different from other people and it's most certainly different than him.

So for anybody who likes a little bit of like astrology humor, we're almost like direct astrological opposites. We have ... I'm a Leo, he's an Aquarius. I'm a Sagittarius rising, he's a Gemini rising. So we're like ...

ash alberg: [00:56:43] This chart already scares me. [Laughs.]

sheila masterson: [00:56:46] [Laughs.] I know! I know, but I will say when you have two ... when you have a double fire sign and a double air sign, which is what he is, you understand the go go nature of each other. If I was with like an earth sign, they'd be like, who is this bitch?

ash alberg: [00:57:01] A hundred percent. Yup. [Both laugh.]

sheila masterson: [00:57:02] What is happening right now?! Like slow the fuck down you nut. [Both laugh.] And, and I do think that there's a significant balance and understanding that comes out to that, but he has that same like fast, quick nature, in a different way, for sure.

And also a lot of his, I would say is like internal and mental, like big swords energy you know, with a double air sign, for my tarot folks. And he definitely has that. And I definitely have some really serious wands energy. [Audio distortion.] And we talked about that on your episode of my podcast, where I'm like, let me be in the wands at all times.

I'm super happy to be there. I never want to leave. Don't give me any cups. Get outta here. Don't give me any swords. [Audio distortion.] Don't give me anything else.

ash alberg: [00:57:42] Yeah. It's so true. Fuck. Okay. So wait, what is your Venus sign then? ‘Cause mine is Pisces, which triple fire sign and then Venus in Pisces is like, heeelllooooo!

sheila masterson: [00:57:54] Oh, you're going to love it. Venus in the seventh house of relationships in Cancer.

ash alberg: [00:58:00] Oh shit. Oh, no! Poor Mike. [Both laugh.]

Oh man. God. But [audio distortion] have a lot of fire energy. And then we're like here, let's put all of our love into the like murky, like not even ... Like Scorpio energy scares the shit out of me. But I also like to think of it as crystal clear ocean. Right? Not that the ocean is crystal clear in reality, but it's like ... it feels very like cold.

I think it's the Atlantic Ocean I’m thinking of specifically. [Sheila laughs.] It's like very cold. It's very, just ... we're getting to the point. It's like deep, but it's ... we know exactly what we're

doing and we're going to, we're going there. Whereas like Cancer is, I'm a lake, let me just float around in these things!

And then a Pisces is, I'm in a muddy little puddle. And I just want to know about all of the murky shit. Tell me all the things. I just want to exist in this little microcosm of emotions. Tell me all of the shitty parts of your life. That's all that I want to live about. [Snorts.]

sheila masterson: [00:58:58] Oh my god. It's so perfect. Yeah. Yeah. So it's fun.

Actually, right now, as we speak, because our wonderful friend Davis is like our personal astrologer, just put out a blog post about being at ... ‘cause Venus just moved into Cancer, about Venus and Cancer. And I was just like, oh my god, this is my life. I feel so seen and personally attacked.

ash alberg: [00:59:24] I feel like that's always a thing, right? It's what's the Astro weather today?? It says, ah fuck. At least ...

sheila masterson: [00:59:29] I know, it is like very funny. And my middle sister, Alex, is a Cancer actually. And so it's very funny to me like having that placement and having her there as like the Cancerian energy in the family, because nobody else is a water sign. She's the only one.

My, my mom and my brother are both Aries. I'm a Leo, and then my dad and my baby sister are both Aquarius. So there's a little bit of air, a lot of fire, and like this teeny little bit of water, like this little drop of water and everyone. And I'm like, oh, she's the sweet one.

ash alberg: [01:00:01] That's so funny. Oh my god, what did ... I think we've got the whole gamut in my family. Like my dad is Pisces, right on the cusp of Aries. And then my mom is Taurus, hardcore, and my brother's a Libra. And so it's, we got the whooole gamut.

sheila masterson: [01:00:17] Oh, my gosh! Yeah, you do! That's so funny. I think it's ... I think it's so interesting. Like the dynamics and stuff that come out of that. And like, when I learned my ... I was like, oh, my brother is an Aries. But my brother was like, if you could find a personality opposite of me, it would be my brother.

He's just very passive. He's very quiet. He's very introverted. And I was like, this is not like some Aries energy. And so I looked it up and he's a Virgo rising and I'm like, that makes more sense to me, ‘cause he is more grounded, more process-driven, he's an engineer like ...

ash alberg: [01:00:47] Yes. I always find that really interesting too, where ... like now we've gone into astrology and tarot, but also definitely the suits overlap quite a bit. Which is part of what I love about Living Tarot, where you like ... like each guest is always associated with some cards, which is fun.

sheila masterson: [01:01:02] Yes. Yeah.

ash alberg: [01:01:03] But if I find it really interesting when people are like, oh, I'm this. I'm like, okay, but what's the rest of your chart? Because people don't always embody their sun sign or the way that you engage with them. And I think particularly ... but I suspect that we

both do this because I feel like you did it with me, but I definitely do it with other people, where we like, draw a lot more shit out of people than they necessarily are used to drawing ... having drawn out.

Like between like spirits having their thing, but then also like being as intense as we are on the front side, and then also as emotional as we are on the on the backend, it's ... tell me all your stories, let me hear all the things. And then they do. And they're like, shit. I never told anybody that! And you’re like welcome to my world, but it's ...

sheila masterson: [01:01:49] Yes! Yeah. And I think part of that is also like the intuitive, like, nature as well. Like I feel like people like confess stuff to me that like, in the grocery store line, like pre-COVID, obviously where I'm like, whoa, that's a lot. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: [01:02:01] Yup. Didn't actually ask for that, but oookay. sheila masterson: [01:02:04] Yeah. I'm like, oh, wow. Okay. Yeah.

ash alberg: [01:02:06] Yep. Boundaries, but all right, but it's ... yeah, it's funny where it's once you ... Like, my friend Marshall, I love him so much. He is a very ... so he's a very public figure in the city that he lives in cause he owns literally the best sex shop and has for years.

And so ... and it's like a sex shop that has won a lot of awards. He just like, he cannot go anywhere in the city without people knowing who he is. And he is extremely professional. He's very kind, but he's also very quiet. Until you get to know him.

And then he is an entirely different person. And when you look at his chart, it makes so much sense because both his Mars and Venus, I think are both in Virgo. And so he's just, he's very loving. He's very, he's just such a grounding force that I love so much about him.

But if you don't know him in a personal way, then he's got some really solid boundaries in place. And it's ... I find it so interesting, as you learn more about a person. And it's also why, like, when I meet people, I'm like, okay, tell me your full chart. [Sheila laughs.] It's ... it's not that it's, okay, you're these signs, therefore, we can't be friends or we can't be together or whatever.

It’s ... But I, I find that it is useful for identifying, what are some likely locations of conflict and languages that maybe like, when it comes up, I see, you're just doing that and, it's ... that's the bit of our charts where we rub up against each other in an uncomfortable way.

sheila masterson: [01:03:39] Exactly. Yeah, totally.

ash alberg: [01:03:41] It's yeah. And then with tarot it's ... I find tarot so interesting. And maybe you can tell me a bit about like, how you ... or don't like to engage with certain types of tarot because, especially on Pinterest or Instagram, when people are like, “Let's do these challenges!” They're like, here's a spread.

Like I have literally found one spread in my life where it felt comfortable to read that was about like “the one.” Because I also don't believe in “the one,” but I do believe that there are ones for us. And so in particular, I think a large part of the problem that I find with in

particular, like romantic relationships spreads is that they feel very non-consensual a lot of the time, or it's like “conflict” and I'm like, cool, like, why don't you just go fucking ask the person instead of asking your cards? That feels like a more direct way of dealing with ...

sheila masterson: [01:04:28] Right. Yeah.

ash alberg: [01:04:29] I found one spread where the questions and the person in particular that I was doing the spread about. It was like, this is probably something that would be useful.

And I like also asked my cards. I was like, is this a thing that we can have a chat about? And one of my decks was like, noope! And then the other deck was like, yeah, we can do this.

sheila masterson: [01:04:48] Yeah.

I'll switch too based on what I'm talking about or based on the day and sometimes when I'm going into a session ... So I read a lot with again, free advertising apparently, I read a lot for clients with the Modern Witch tarot. Just, I like it, it seems to really enjoy working with other people.

But sometimes I will be going to sit down for a session with a client and I'm like, something else wants to come out. Like the other day ... I have the Mystic Mondays tarot, which I almost never use for other people, ‘cause I usually use something for myself for a while so I used to it before I use it with clients. But it was like really insistent. So I was like, okay, I guess we're using this now.

But I do think there are certain decks that can sit in a certain type of energy, which ... that's, this is something been really heavy ... [audio distortion] ... Like it might not be the right thing for like your everyday deck. Or like you might get to the point ... I wrote a blog post last year about like breaking up with your deck, which isn't saying like, you're done with it forever, but like just like taking a break.

And I had read for like years with the Starchild tarot, which is one of the first decks that I ever got. And I still love, I love that deck so much and I owe it a lot and I love that deck, but I hit this point ... and it's funny because it was like shortly before COVID where it just felt like it wasn't ... I was looking at the cards and just staring at them.

ash alberg: Yes!
sheila masterson: Like, what is going on?

Like, why am I not getting anything? And then I pulled out ... I, I still have my Coleman Smith-Rider-Waite which is like what I learned on. So I pulled that out and I was like, let me just try it like this. And right away, I got stuff. And I was like, okay. And that kept happening.

And I was like, okay. I feel like I like it. This deck can't go with me where I'm going right now. And so I started reading with something else and it was just like a completely different experience. So if that happens to you, you are not suddenly not intuitive! [Ash groans.]

Like you just might be in like needing a different deck or just a break from whatever you're in that moment, just to shake things up a little bit.

ash alberg: [01:06:38] Yeah. It's so interesting because I like I, so my first deck was my dad's Rider-Waite deck and he gifted it to me and I have never found it particularly intuitive. But I keep it and it's actually right behind me on my ...

sheila masterson: [01:06:52] I see it! I see the little yellow box!

ash alberg: [01:06:54] Yeah. And yeah, but I've like never used it really because I find it very not intuitive, and what I have always found intuitive is my Wanderers tarot deck. And then, and I was just like, oh yeah, okay. I also just was like, oh, traditional deck versus like ... Wanderers tarot was very much a feminist deck. So I was like, okay, this maybe makes it a little more sense.

Although the Rider-Waite, it has some very serious feminist roots. But anyway the ... and then I bought a deck from someone who like, I love the artwork and I had never ... I don't collect a lot of decks. And so I got the second deck and I could not read a fucking thing, even though it was plant-based and I was like, plants are my thing! This is something that should feel a lot more intuitive.

And I also found that the way that the person was talking about the plants was very much not my relationship with those plants. And so it just like nothing about it was jiving. And I eventually moved that deck on and I got the Hollow Valley Oracle deck, and that has been very much an easy deck for again ... Heeyy! Like right there!

It's like, it's very intuitive for me and it feels a lot more gentle. Like it's interesting because I have found that my Wanderers tarot deck has become much more about like big energy shit and my Hollow Valley is gentler. And it is sometimes longer term, but it is also very much more happy to work with me in the moment.

And it's funny because I actually find the two of them feel like they are dealing with different guides of mine. Like one is my wolf, just like always there with me and like happy to like, deal with this, what we're doing today.

sheila masterson: I love that!

ash alberg: And then like my older guide and the older guides talk through the bigger deck and the wolf also gets involved in that. But there's ... yeah. It's like different voices are talking.

sheila masterson: [01:08:49] Yes. I love how you're saying this too. So that could be what's going on for me. But I noticed that, I have the White Sage tarot, which I really like. It's like a little mini deck, which I love ‘cause I have tiny little baby hands, so it's easier for me to shuffle and stuff. And it's also very travel-friendly.

But I love that deck, all animal-based as well. But I find that it has like a much gentler ... breed. So like when I pull with that it always feels much more gentle. Where when I pull with

like what have I ... I have been using the Superlunaris tarot, which is, it was a Kickstarter, like an indie deck, a lot recently.

And I really like it. But that's a more, like you're saying, like a more, like in your face, more direct, I would say is ... so I have like certain decks that I find are like very direct, and funny enough I find that the Modern Witch for me shifts a little bit when I'm reading with clients. So sometimes it is ... like recently it has been like extremely literal, which, I do not find that very often where it will literally be like the thing that's happening on the card is what's happening with the client.

And I'm like, this is so strange, ‘cause it is not normally like that for me. But I've noticed that like recently it's shifted to be like very literal. And I had a client who, I kept drawing the Justice card for her and I was like, this is so strange. And we were talking about career stuff, obviously I’m a career and business reader, but we're talking about this stuff and I was like, is your career in the law?

I was like, because I keep pulling this and either like you're a Libra or ... and here it was both, she was a Libra and a judge. And I ...

ash alberg: [01:10:16] Oh my god!

sheila masterson: [01:10:16] ... didn’t know that before she came in and I was like, oh my god! Like literally a judge and the Justice card is showing up right now. It's ... I can't ... like so crazy. Yeah.

ash alberg: [01:10:25] So funny. [Sheila laughs.] Oh my god. It's ... yeah.

sheila masterson: [01:10:29] Yeah, I think like you need to be, we open to, first of all, you need to be open to something that you connect with. Like you were saying, like the Smith-Rider-Waite, a lot of people don't connect with that. A lot of people are uncomfortable with the religious symbolism. And as much as I’m like, in a lot of ways, I have whole different appreciation for that deck that was created by a woman of color in a time when first of all, women in general were not really given any sort of like power or ...

ash alberg: [01:10:54] Yes! And she was also bisexual. Like she was like linked with multiple female partners, yeah.

sheila masterson: [01:10:59] Yes!!!

Like just ... I'm like, this is like, a queer woman of color who created this artwork. Like this is crazy, you know what I mean? Like the fact that even happened, it's like unbelievable. And so I have a whole, I have a huge respect for that deck and I did learn on it.

So I was like, I think I've a different kind of relationship with it. But for everybody out there, there are so many different decks and you really need to find something that you connect with. And I think you brought up something really interesting, which is just because you like the art doesn't always mean that it's going to work for you, or it might just be a not right now thing, because I’ve bought decks that I'm like, I really like this and it's just not connecting.

And then I go back to it like three months later and I'm like, oooh, like I get it. It's clicking for me. Yeah.

And so one of the biggest pieces of advice that I give people is when you have a new deck, if you like to do daily pulls, you can. I recommend it when you're working with a new deck to just shuffle up, pull a card every morning, write about what comes up from seeing that specific card and integrate it into your life in a small way before you try to like, come at it with like, BIG, “is my relationship doomed, do I need to quit my job” kind of energy. And I mean ...

ash alberg: [01:12:09] Yes! A hundred percent.

sheila masterson: [01:12:10] Dip your toe before you jump into the deep end, or don't and tell me to fuck off, but that's fine. But I've found for me, like that's one of the things that really helps integrate a new deck and familiarize me with the artwork and all of that.

I really love ... Why can't I get the name of it ... the Fifth Spirit Tarot from the Word Witch, Charlie Claire Burgess. I love that deck. First of all, a couple of things that I love about it. First of all, I love that it's like queer, like very queer friendly. But also the feel of the cards goes a long way when you're shuffling all day, every day and like constantly like pulling stuff for people.

And I'm like, I can always tell a deck that was created by somebody who is like a professional reader, because stuff like that does not go unnoticed. That is a detail that somebody is on top of. And so ...

ash alberg: [01:12:57] Yep.

sheila masterson: [01:12:58] I love that deck. I read with that deck a lot for myself, sometimes for clients. It really depends like if I'm getting that pull, but part of how I like integrate myself into those decks and be able to use them with clients is by doing that, pull a daily card, like start to familiarize myself with the way the suits work and the way, like the energy of that deck is.

So, is it subtle? Is it in your face? Is it in between? Is it really good for business stuff? Is it really good for personal stuff? Is it super emotional? Because I also have decks where I'm like, okay, like we don't all need to cry today. Settle down. It's like the hallmark movie of tarot decks.

ash alberg: [01:13:31] Oh my god. That's so funny. It's so ... I'm very interested to see too, where like Davis is working with Erin on the Hollow Valley tarot, and I'm stoked to get the deck, but I am also very ... I think like, I have this like weird thing of I'm like, trying not to put too much pressure on the deck because the Oracle deck has just worked so well for me and is like ... the first day that I got it, then I had a little opening pull with it and I was like, what are we going to do together? What's the energy that I should be anticipating?

And it was just like very loving and supportive. I was like, cool, this is gonna be great. And I'm trying not to put that much pressure on the tarot deck, but I also, I'm curious ... like I have this like weird sense of like loyalty to my Wanderers tarot deck.

And I'm like, I don't want to replace it. It's there's ... I need to remember like, open relationship politics with my tarot deck. [Sheila laughs.] Like loving one in one way does not mean that you are replacing it with the other. You don't have to be monogamous if you don't want to be. You can renegotiate the terms of your relationship together.

Like ...

sheila masterson: [01:14:42] Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes.

I think that's the other thing, just because you start using a new deck doesn’t mean you need to not use the other deck. And that's another thing to use your intuition with. Because every time I sit down to do a reading for myself, like I have, I always keep a deck like in my like nightstand drawer for ... in case of emergency ... [Giggles.]

ash alberg: [01:15:00] [Cackles and snorts.] Yes.
sheila masterson: [01:15:03] ... and like my purse and my car and like wherever else.

But I always say, if you're feeling the impulse to use a different deck, like just try it, like it doesn't ... you're not cheating on your deck!

ash alberg: [01:15:11] Yup.

sheila masterson: [01:15:12] It's not like that. And to trust that, like there's a reason why you're feeling that impulse or that draw to another deck. And again, like you might find that, okay, every time I'm super emotional, I'm coming to this deck. And this is what's here to support me in this moment. And in other moments, like I really need my no-nonsense [audio distortion] ...

It's going to be like, look, this is what you need to pay attention to, and you need to get it together, man! Like, this isn't like the soft touch. This is like the slap across the face, get with it!

But yeah, I think that's one of the things ... but also I just interviewed Davis and Erin together, my first dual interview for the, for season two of Living Tarot, about creating a this deck and I'm so excited for it also. And again, I'm with you, I'm like, I'm trying not to put tons of pressure on it, but like I'm very excited, and even hearing about their creative process was super interesting to me because I was like, this is one of the things I wanted to talk about!

Because how do you combine two different people's intuition and create something together? And especially because like they're so far apart! Because Erin’s in Nashville and Davis is like all the way up in Canada and I'm like, this is crazy. Yeah. So, so cool.

ash alberg: [01:16:17] That's so neat. I'm so excited for that episode. [Makes excited sound.] [Sheila laughs.]

Oh man. Always stuff happening behind the scenes. So, okay. So tell me something that, and I'm actually very curious to hear this, considering your upbringing what is something that you wish you had known or been told about about ritual or magic or intuition when you were younger?

sheila masterson: [01:16:42] So there's probably two things. I think, setting your own rules. I think if had known that when I was younger, my entire experience of listening to my intuition and not like explaining things away for most of my life would have been very valuable because I, in some ways, always trusted that and was okay, like I know this thing, so I, I know it, and I can listen to it, but I didn't have a name for it.

And I think I would have, in a lot of ways, felt less alone, because growing up is lonely. And I think growing up intuitive is especially lonely. Because there's so much that you can't explain and there's so much that other people don't understand about what you're hearing or seeing or feeling.

And that was like, part of the whole reason that I created Living Tarot, is it all comes back to this like loneliness and this feeling of like isolation and the uniqueness of your experience separating you from other people. And I think I would have had a very different relationship with my intuition, especially like in my early twenties when I was dating.

God help me. Thank god I did not get married then. [Ash snorts.] Like truly.

ash alberg: [01:17:49] I know right?! I like, think of all my past partners and I ... like some of them I'm like, you're probably an okay ... Like some, absolutely, are still friends and like lovely humans ...

sheila masterson: [01:17:59] A hundred percent. I won't talk shit on all of them. I had some like really wonderful ex-boyfriends. Like, truth.

ash alberg: [01:18:04] Yeah, but there's some people where it's ... fuck, if I had ... it's actually since pandemic lockdown, there've been in particular a few in ... I was going to say the more recent years, but not actually that recent, but I'm like, man, if pandemic had hit and we had been living together, it actually like, in some cases it just straight up would have been dangerous.

And other cases it's like, I would have been fucking miserable. Like I am so grateful that when the fucking pandemic hit, I was not anywhere near you.

sheila masterson: [01:18:33] Yeah. Listen, I mean, that's the truth. And I think of that meme all the time that like straight women are proof that sexuality isn't a choice.

ash alberg: [01:18:42] [Laughs emphatically.] That's so true. Holy fuck.

sheila masterson: [01:18:44] I think about that all the time. [Ash laughs.] I'll tell you right now as like a woman that's just about as straight as I could possibly be ... like, if I could choose to be something else, I would. Like, that's just the truth.

ash alberg: [01:18:53] It's so fun. And it's so funny too, ‘cause I've like ... I've regularly made semi-jokes, although they're not really that, that much of a joke, it's just a sad state of the world. I'm like, my most abusive relationship was with a woman. And even that baseline, there was like basic shit that I'm like, even SHE wouldn't do that.

She was an abusive piece of shit and she still wouldn't have done these things that seem to just be like the baseline for a lot of cis dudes.

sheila masterson: [01:19:21] The bar is set so low! ash alberg: [01:19:23] Like below the floor ...

sheila masterson: [01:19:25] Yeah. And I'm like, the stuff is like, truly that I dealt with at that age. If I had the kind of access to my intuition that I do now, I would have never stood for that stuff, especially as a double ... like hello, like Sun, Mercury in Leo. I don't think so!

ash alberg: [01:19:42] Yup. Yup. Yeah. It's a little intense.

sheila masterson: [01:19:46] Yeah, but I think ... I think that's the one thing. And the other thing is I think this idea that it's personal, like ritual is personal and your experience with that is personal and that's okay. Because I think in some ways, I knew that it wasn't weird.

I always found it strange in, in the Catholic religion at least, that there's like a barrier between people and God, which is like the ... like, so you go to, you go and do like penance and talk to the priest about your sin. That was always so strange to me because I'm like, why can't we just talk? And like, why is everything so impersonal? Because truly everything about Catholicism is incredibly impersonal and like rigid. The weddings, the funerals, like all of it.

Like you're not supposed to have eulogies at Catholic funerals. It's like against the rules and they do it after the ceremony. Yeah. And then Catholic wedding is basically like five minutes of wedding in the middle of a mass. Which I'm like, what is this bullshit? And then a priest is going to give you like a homily about how to be married.

And I'm like, sir, you've never been married. How the fuck do you know? We're like ... and Pre-Cana?! Sorry, I don't, I'm not here to just talk shit on Catholicism, but it's weird.

There's a lot of like weird stuff. And I think that I would have realized that impulse that I had, that these things are more personal and to dive deeper into what that relationship looks like to me and what it looks like to talk to myself, as we would call it. I would literally like lay in bed at night and I wouldn't really pray, but I would talk to my higher self, which is what I know it was now.

And I would hear that voice and I, again, would just write it off. I think my experience would have been so different if I had realized how much you can build your own personal relationship with your sense of intuition and your guides and god, or goddess, whatever source, whatever you want to call it.

And I think that would have greatly affected my confidence on a more real level. Like I said, a lot of what I do now, I think, was “fake it till you make it.” There are certain things that I'm

super confident about and have no problem with, but there are other things that I am always faking it until I make it.

And I think that experience would have been super different.

ash alberg: [01:21:55] Yeah. Yeah, that makes so much sense. I also, the ... [Chuckles.] A bunch of the episodes, which will probably be scattered before and after this episode, there've been a lot of conversations about ... because a lot of us are like ... grew up in the west, grew up in particular with some form of Christianity, sometimes Judaism.

But you know, those being so dominant across cultures, like ancestral cultures, there's a lot of trauma that exists from them. And the thing that I personally find really interesting and have various theories about is how so many different pagan and indigenous cultures across the world have hidden themselves under Catholicism because of the level of ritual that is involved and how Catholicism feels like the witchiest of Christianity because of the ritual. [Sheila laughs.]

But it is also super fucking uncomfortable because the ritual is so impersonal. Like I remember going to a Catholic funeral with like rose quartz in one hand and obsidian and the other, and like gripping them in my fists and just wanting to throw them through the stained glass ‘cause I was so angry at how impersonal that funeral felt, because I am not somebody who like, lives and grows up ... has grown up in that Catholicism and finds comfort in the ritual.

So I also feel weirdly validated in that, like you did grow up, and that is where your parents find comfort, and it still did not feel comfortable at ... with the amount of exposure. You had to ... it ... in the fact that that was the norm. And so there should be comfort in the familiarity of the ritual. And it's still feeling like there is it's stopping you from accessing ...

sheila masterson: [01:23:43] Yes. It's like a wall there. And another thing is, there's not a value ... there's not a value on that, like personal level and the value is entirely placed on conformity. And so I think that I wish that somebody had said, it's okay to be different and it's okay to ask questions.

So the other thing I will say is I never met anybody who wasn't Catholic until I was in high school, which sounds ... can sound crazy to people, but that's the truth. So I never met anybody that wasn't Catholic and that was the first time I had Jewish friends. And again, like my experiences not being Jewish but being a Catholic person and meeting my friends who were Jewish, questions and like, curiosity is so much more ... and probably not in all forms of Judaism, but in the forms ... [Ash says something indistinct in the background.] Yes.

But in the form that they were part of, is like part of the process. And to me, I was like, mesmerized by that because it's so different than my experience. And you could ask a couple questions in Catholicism, but nothing that actually challenged any of the bullshit that existed there. And to me, it was like the first time that I saw that that wasn't normal.

Like I knew that it wasn't normal. I knew it in my body. I knew it going through Catholic school. I saw how horrible everybody was, saw the nuns. Like it was enough, and I was like,

getting the fuck outta here! My parents wanted me to go to Catholic high school and I was like, no, get me out. Kill me. [Ash laughs.]

I think I wish that somebody had told me that it was okay to be different and it was okay to ask these questions and it was okay to challenge these things. And that, that doesn't make you difficult, because I feel like that's like the thing that comes up, like with anybody who asks a lot of questions or wants to push these things.

And even like in my home life I think that like my parents always had that like attitude towards me as if I was difficult. And I was like, listen, you've got another thing coming if you think that your difficult child is the one who gets straight A's and just asks some hard questions to answer.

Like I've never gotten in any trouble. I've never been in detention. I've never been arrested. I haven't done any hard drugs. Like you're doing all right, okay, if I'm the difficult child here. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: [01:25:48] [Snorts.] Oh my god, I love that.
sheila masterson: [01:25:49] Like, you need to set ... you need to set your expectations in a

different place maybe.

ash alberg: [01:25:53] Yeah, fucking religious trauma. [Grumbles.] So on that note, what's next for you? Whether it's like with the podcast or with readings, or like all the things.

sheila masterson: [01:26:05] Yeah. So I am in the process right now of trying to make my course Evergreen. So when I offered it originally, and I've offered it twice before, I did it as a part-recorded part-live course, but I want ... the thing that I found is that I would start teaching and then like a couple of weeks in I'd have five people email me and be like, “I really want to take your course, is it available?”

So I really want to make it available whenever, so people can take it at their own pace. And integrating a little bit more of what I've learned as I've taught, which is like ... every time the cour-- ... like every time I ran the course, I like adjusted a little bit more and it's all about, it's about the meanings of the cards and everything, but it's also about integrating each suit, each ... like each card into your own life and having that deeper sense of understanding.

So not just learning, but also integrating, and then spreads for real life and also intuitive spreads because ... you were talking about that, like some people find it very easy to connect to a spread and some people do not. And so I talk about both in the course. So I offer ... like a lot of times I'll use a spread as like a baseline for something. And then I'll just ask a bunch of questions on top of that, because if I just ask a bunch of questions, I'll forget a question I asked. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: [01:27:19] Yes. Yes.

sheila masterson: [01:27:21] So that's the other thing. And I talk about how I'll ... I'll, I'll sit and like channel for a second and write my questions out on a post-it so that when I flip the card, I remember what question I asked.

ash alberg: [01:27:30] Smart.

sheila masterson: [01:27:31 Took me a while to get there, people! This was not my first impulse. So don't be like, oh, I'm an idiot for not doing that. I did it for a really long time forgetting the questions. So.

ash alberg: [01:27:42] [Laughs.] Yeah.

sheila masterson: [01:27:43] So it only takes several years of that before I figured it out. But basically doing that. I'm also in the process of moving over my High Priestess course, which is just like a mini workshop about tuning into intuition.

And it's a ... it's a little bit of lecture. It's a little bit of like movement and grounding and like a little bit of meditation and connecting with intuition. And then I do all of my readings. So I do career and business readings for people who need career check-ins. I do like career ahead spreads, which are like the whole year ahead in your business or career. I do what I call rut buster readings, which are like energy work and tarot. So it's a combination of both and it's for people who really feel like they're like in a career rut.

And then with the podcast I'm just really looking forward to season two. So I, I do episodes where I have interviews with people like Ash and also people who are not traditionally in witchier careers, because again, intuition is everywhere. It's not just in witch shit.

Like ... which I tell people all the time and serves you so well in your career and business, that I have lawyers, and I'm hoping to get a couple of doctors on this coming season, or nurses which I'm really excited about. So people who are witchier and people who aren't, because one of the things, like I said, that I really learned is that so much of the process of learning to connect to your intuition and trust yourself is a lonely experience. Like it's one that you have to do alone in a lot of ways.

You can learn from other people, you can get support from other people. You can get validation from other people, but ultimately like, you are the only one that can bring yourself around to that. And so what I want it to do was give that language and give people more of a range of what to pay attention to through these interviews. So the podcast is like half interviews and then half just my own experience. And Episodes that I find either from teaching people for a long time and reading for people for a long time.

And then I also have episodes that are called Ask Sheila, which are listener questions that they send in. And a lot of times I'll have a couple of people ask a similar question which is like always like validating for me. And I'm like, oh, maybe I should do a whole episode on this. So, so we talk about tarot. We talk about intuition. We talk about real life and all of those different things.

And then on a more personal and just for fun level, I have been writing a lot, which I again, has been one of those things that, when I started doing it, didn't make any sense. And I was like, what the hell am I doing here? And that ... I always did for fun when I was a kid, like I always loved to write, and my mom still has all these like short stories and stuff that I wrote that are terrible, when I was really young, but I used to write for fun.

And back in January I was like processing some grief as you were talking about like untraditional grief, not just like someone dying, and I found myself like sitting down and wanting to write. And at first I thought it was like memoir or like poetry or like nonfiction. And then I realized that it was fiction and I wrote this whole thing that I was not expecting to do.

And it just kept going, every day I would sit down and expect it to be over. I'm like, oh, I'm going to run out. And then I would just keep going. And like all of a sudden I had a whole fiction book and a whole trilogy of fiction books, which ... they're not all done yet but like basically the base and the bones of the trilogy.

So that's like my, like just for fun thing. And it's one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot this year is like, when did we like, stop doing stuff that was like, just for fun??

ash alberg: [01:31:09] Oh my god. Yes. Yep.

sheila masterson: [01:31:12] Even those of us who are connected and know better. I'm like, god, when have I just let myself do something for fun? And as I was writing it, I was like, I'm not writing this with the intention necessarily of getting published.

I like ... now I'm like, okay, that would be cool, ‘cause I want people to read it, but like I was just writing it for myself. And I think until I started writing this book, I didn't realize how much of your personal experience can go into something that's even fiction. ‘Cause I was thinking like, you process emotion through poetry and memoir and like short stories and stuff, but it never occurred to me that you can process all of that stuff through fiction until I was like having this moment where I'm sitting here, like writing this one scene and I'm like crying as I’m writing.

And Mike walks in and is like, “Oh, is everything okay?” “It's ... yeah. It's fine.” I'm like, “It's just, I didn't realize that I was like working through some old, like relationship demons.” But I was writing the scene where it's basically like, that moment that you have in every relationship, not in every relationship, but in a relationship where you realize that you're hitting the wall and the other person can't give you the thing that you need.

And it's such ... I was not expecting to be so emotional. And I was like, I feel like I'm working through all of my old relationships in this book, because it's that moment where you're like, why can't you just give me this thing that I need? It's so simple and I just need this one thing, just give me this thing.

And you're almost like going through like the stages of grief of like bargaining and like trying to like negotiate with yourself and negotiate with that person. And as I was writing the scene that, again, was like a piece of fiction and supposed to be like, just for fun. I was like finding myself, being like, oh my god. Why won't he just give her what she wants?! [Ash snorts.]

Like now ... I'm really into this right now. That's that Venus in Cancer ...

ash alberg: [01:32:59] Oh my God. Yes. It's so funny because I, so, I don't know if you know the Hot and Bothered podcast, which, oh my god, you're going to love it. It's ... so the

women behind Not Sorry Productions that do Harry Potter and the Sacred Text and the Real Question, they do a romance podcast. It is fucking great.

And the first season is all about like the structure and the tropes of romance novels and the romance genre in general. It is so great. Made me completely change my view of romance as a genre, and made me realize like, there's lots of really fucking cool like subversive stuff and queer stuff and like interracial stuff.

And it's ... the genre is so much better than we give it credit for. And also the reason we don't give it credit is because it is seen as - I'm putting this in quotations - a woman's thing, and it's just so fucking great. Then they decided to do that. I listened to that. I binged it at the beginning of quarantine, then because of quarantine season two became ... they were doing Twilight in quarantine.

And so they were like, Twilight is terrible and also part of the canon, so let's go through it. And then it got to the point where they were like, “We can't do this anymore. It's not fun. We're just consistently talking about how abusive these people are. So we're going to change.” So now they're looking at, I think, Jane Eyre. They've changed the process or changed the focus, which is great.

But the first season in particular, I love so much. And they actually walk you through the process of writing your own romance novel or novella, which I was like, oh yeah, I'm going to do this. That's how I was writing it!

sheila masterson: Hell yes!

ash alberg: It was, it's so funny because I like, sent it off to some friends to read and all of them, and I knew this at the time I was writing it ... there is no actual ... like, between the two protagonists, there's no true conflict, which is a necessary part of the trope. But also, just a part of being in relationship is that you hit conflict at some point and you have to come through it on the other side.

And the thing with the romance genre is that in order to be considered romance, there must be a happy ending, no matter what. That is what defines it as being romance. And so, I just skipped to the happy ending, but like skip the part where there was conflict. And I was like, yeah, it's cause I'm fucking not ready to deal with ... I didn't want to write all of the shit that I am like, this is where I just exist in relationships.

Most of the time is like, this not working. And I ... it's ... clearly I've got some avoidance shit that I needed to deal with, but it's ...

sheila masterson: [01:35:34] And I think that's so funny because the other thing that happened is as I was writing and I'm writing ... my protagonist is female, and like basically inhabits a very patriarchal world that stirs up a lot of conflict in her personally. And so as I'm writing this, I'm like, why am I ... because I started writing something else, and then I wrote this and I was like, why am I writing all of these like lonely women? What is going on?

That makes such a theme that's like, running through everything. And I think it's interesting because I learned a lot about the way that I ... The way that I see love or like the way that I see romance. I'm like, my idea of romance is not what I thought it was.

And I think it's one of those funny things where like people say on online dating, like what they want and then they go for something completely different.

ash alberg: [01:36:24] Oh my god, yes.

sheila masterson: [01:36:26] And I was like, I'm realizing so much about myself from writing this and writing these ... because there's a love triangle in the book and I'm writing these two different relationships and I'm like, it's very interesting because they're very different, but they're both bringing out different things in her and everything is seen from her perspective.

And so, having that conversation with myself and being like, wow, it is interesting what you find romantic and is this fucked up? Or, or is it like a little bit of both, like most of life? And I think having those moments and realizing a lot about myself through writing fiction was like, not something I expected.

So I think it's funny what you're saying about, “Oh, I'm avoiding this part of the conflict.”

ash alberg: [01:37:06] Yeah. It's so true. And it's also, just you like set up these like love triangle situations that it's like, this one person is clearly not good for you. This other person is like being gentler and giving you space. And you're just like, fuck no, that's not what I need!

And it's, no, that's actually exactly what you need. Going in that direction is a bad idea, but then you're like typing it and you're like, I don't know who you should end up with, even though it's like probably pretty obvious. [Laughs.] [Snorts.]

sheila masterson: [01:37:30] I know. So it's very funny too, because I was like, I really like ... I'm railing against the idea that like, it has to be that clear, but then what I did was create a situation where I'm like, now I genuinely don't know. It's ultimately ... like what you're doing is creating like three very flawed characters, like who are learning something, and they learn through their interactions with each other and they also learn through their own mistakes, which is like the most human thing, is to learn through these mistakes.

So I think I've learned a lot about, listening to the intuitive voice that comes up in my writing because that's just another type of channeling, but also trying to see beyond some of the typical tropes, because I was like, I want to write this love triangle, but I don't want it to be like an easy answer, where just like one person is shitty and the other person isn't, but it's all about what she values, so it's not just, objectively, this person's shitty and this person's nice.

Like it's more this is what's really important to her. And this is the person who sees that more and who can give her that thing.

ash alberg: [01:38:33] Yeah, because that's such a big part of that. [Snorts.] We've just gone on a complete other tangent, but I love it. [Sheila laughs.] It's ... it's also that thing of like

when you're in relationships and nothing about it is clearly a problem, but there are just like, there's something really fucking important for you that they are not actively able to support in the way that you need them to.

And it's ... everything else can look so fucking great. And in comparison and on paper and it's, especially when you're ... I think, especially when we have had abusive relationships and then we get into new relationships, the idea of, looking at the relationship and being like, okay, it's not abusive, so it's already better.

And this person is really kind and good to me, but there's still something missing and that's, it's not good enough. Right? And everybody's going to decide for themselves is it good enough? Is it not? I think also for me, I always battle with the Aries, like, inability to commit, right? Like we lose interest really fast and it's, let's go!

Which does not necessarily mean that open relationships are the best idea either. Like it's not a good combo necessarily. But there’s yeah, there's like something about figuring out ... like how do you decide, how do you know when you found the right person or persons or fucking I don't know?

That's a bit of intuition where I, I have no fucking clue. And also I feel like I get a lot of mixed messages about it and I'm just like, I just got to wait it out and see. And like also just trust that the universe will ... I do have to remind myself, especially because I do have my dear ones, there are so many ways to grow old with people and trying to force something to work when it's not aligned is a way to actually ruin it.

When, if you just release a little bit of that grip and need for control, it'll sort itself out the ... whatever way it needs to sort itself out.

sheila masterson: [01:40:28] Yeah. And I loved what you said earlier, too, about like multiple ones, and that there's not just like one person or one twin flame or soulmate or whatever. I don't believe that either. I think that there are multiple paths that we can go down and multiple people that will teach us like different lessons about love in this life.

And that was also like one of the things that I wanted to talk about, because I was like, I don't want this to be like a there's one person. I want it to be, okay, here are these challenges and here’s what each person brings out of you and they both challenge you in different ways. And so also, what does it look like to be with two people that are like, good possibilities?

And also, there is a relationship that is more of that. Like you're describing like, just like a lovely, wonderful person who's supportive and like good on paper.

ash alberg: [01:41:18] Yup.
sheila masterson: [01:41:20] ... but on paper person that it's just not there with, like where

you're just like, nothing's wrong, but also nothing's right. Yeah. ash alberg: [01:41:25] Yes.
sheila masterson: [01:41:26] Yeah.

ash alberg: [01:41:27] Yeah. I don't know. Every once in a while I hear of these like, just perfect humans and I have a couple of friends who are like, in those relationships and they are just like, with these like truly wonderfully supportive humans. And obviously like everybody has dimensions and different facets to themselves and there ... but they are able to be this like beautifully grounding force.

And I just, it makes me so happy when that happens for people.

sheila masterson: [01:41:55] Yeah!

ash alberg: [01:41:56] I don’t necessarily know that I could actually handle it myself. I feel like there's a little too much fire and I would plow over somebody and I actually really just need that dynamic. I'm like, I need you to fight me back a little bit. Like when I am a shithead, you need tell me I am a shithead.

sheila masterson: [01:42:07] I get it. I get it. I really do. And I, and the other thing is tarot has helped me in parts of this as well, because I'll like, I'll get to this point where I'm like I know something's missing and I can’t tell what it is. Or I'm having a really hard time figuring out like where to take this next, and I'll draw a couple cards and see what's coming up for myself.

So I really do use tarot in all of these different, like creative processes as well, as much as it's like a practical tool for my life. It's also something that I use as a writing prompt or as an idea generator for different parts or to connect with. Like the foggier parts of my intuition, especially right now, we're in Mercury retrograde which is sometimes a little harder to see the overall arc or the narrative that's running through everything.

And so tarot has really been a tool that helps me. So I encourage anybody, like whether your business is witchy or not, to use tarot in that way, because it can ... it's always the thing that reflects back to us our blind spots, and there's no bias to your tarot deck. Like it's not like your friends who maybe don't want to say something shitty about your partner or whatever, or are too timid to like, be totally honest with you.

It's going to show you your stuff, and come to it with all of those real things that are coming up for you and are drawing stuff out of you in those moments and really trust that, trust that whatever's coming up is something that you can solve, like on your own with your deck and get that kind of clarity.

ash alberg: [01:43:28] Yes. So good. That's probably a good spot to stop. sheila masterson: [01:43:43] Yeaah!
[Both laugh.]

ash alberg: Also this ... we’re at the long end again. I hope that people are cool with listening to these long episodes. If they're not, it doesn't matter ‘cause I didn't get to this point. It's fine.

sheila masterson: [01:43:43] Yes. Yeah!

ash alberg: [01:43:45] I have really enjoyed having you here. Thank you so much. I'm also, I need to book a follow-up.

[Both laugh, Ash snorts.]

sheila masterson: [01:43:52] Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for having me, such a pleasure as always! And again, like very excited to be here and to always talk about all of this stuff. So yeah.

ash alberg: [01:44:03] Thanks, my love.

ash alberg: [01:44:04] [Upbeat music playing.] You can find full episode recordings and transcripts at snortandcackle.com, just click on podcast in the main menu. Follow Snort and Cackle on Instagram @snortandcackle, and join our seasonal book club with #SnortandCackleBookClub. Don't forget to subscribe and review the podcast via your favorite podcasting platform.

Editing provided by Noah Gilroy, recording and mixing by Ash Alberg, music by Yesable.