season 2, episode 5 - finding our way in with amanda barcenas

our guest for episode 5 is amanda barcenas! amanda and her husband alberto raise romneys, lincoln longwools, and romeldale/cvm sheep in stockbridge, massachusetts in the heart of the berkshires. amanda's passion is raising their sheep for wool and educating about rare breeds and wool as a sustainable and beneficial product. two years ago, they opened a yarn and wool shop in stockbridge where the focus is on supporting other shepherds, natural dyers, and celebrating breed specific and small batch farm yarns. you can find them online at pradodelana.com and on instagram @pradodelana.

each season we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #snortandcacklebookclub, with a book review by ash and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. this season's #snortandcacklebookclub read is "orishas, goddesses, and voodoo queens" by lilith dorsey.

take the fibre witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz. follow us on instagram @snortandcackle and be sure to subscribe via your favourite podcasting app so you don't miss an episode!

seasons 1-3 of snort & cackle are generously supported by the manitoba arts council.

transcript

snort & cackle - season 2, episode 5 - amanda barcenas

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] Hello, and welcome to the Snort and Cackle podcast. I'm your host, Ash Alberg. I'm a queer fibre witch and hedgewitch. And each week I interview a fellow boss witch to discuss how everyday magic helps them make their life and the wider world, a better place.

Expect serious discussions about intersections of privilege and oppression, big C versus small C capitalism, rituals, sustainability, astrology, ancestral work, and a whole lot of snorts and cackles. Each season, we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #SnortAndCackleBookClub with a book review by me and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. Our book this season is Orishas, Goddesses, and Voodoo Queens by Lilith Dorsey.

Whether you're an aspiring boss witch looking to start your knitwear design business, a plant witch looking to play more with your local naturally dyed color palette or a knit witch wondering just what the hell is a natural yarn and how do you use it in your favorite patterns, we've got the solution for you.

Take the free fiber witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz and find out which self-paced online program will help you take your dreams into reality. Visit ashalberg.com/quiz [upbeat music fades out] and then join fellow fiber witches in the Creative Coven Community at ashalberg.com/creative-coven-community for 24/7 access to Ash’s favorite resources, monthly zoom knit nights, and more. [End of intro.]

I am here today with my friend, Amanda Barcenas. Amanda and her husband, Alberto, raise Romney's Lincoln long wools and Rommeldale CVM sheep in Stockbridge, Massachusetts in the heart of the Berkshires. Amanda's passion is raising their sheep for wool and educating about rare breeds and wool as a sustainable and beneficial product.

Two years ago, they opened a yarn and wool shop in Stockbridge where the focus is on supporting other shepherds, natural dyers, and celebrating breed-specific and small batch farm yarns. Hi, Amanda.

amanda barcenas: Hi friend!

ash alberg: How are you? [Giggles.] amanda barcenas: I’m so great.
ash alberg: I'm so excited for this chat. amanda barcenas: Me too!

ash alberg: So a little bit of background for folks, we met because of Instagram magic. Sometimes Instagram is useful. We were just talking today though, about how it's literally not working right now. So that's always fun.

amanda barcenas: I know, I think I like slipped into your DMs and I'm like, oh was that ... was that a little too ...

ash alberg: But it was perfect! [Cackles.] And it was so good. And then I, then we actually met the year that I went to Rhinebeck, which was so much fun, but the best part was like, I didn't ... I like ran into your children before I ran into you, because I was like going through the hall of breeds first and your kids were hanging out with the sheep.

And so, and like I recognized your logo so I was like, oh, this is Amanda’s! Like I saw your kids. And then I think also I saw Alberto before I saw you ‘cause I think you were like helping somebody else. So I was like chatting with him before. [Laughs.] But anyway, that was great. I saw the whole family.

amanda barcenas: It all works out. [Ash giggles.] Yeah, I was ... that was so fun to get to meet you in person. It's fun anytime when you connect with somebody through social media, which I generally don't love.

ash alberg: Agreed.
amanda barcenas: But when you like find those like great people and continue

to have a relationship with them ...

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda barcenas: ... and then get to meet them in person, and they're still like the person that you have pictured in your head and everything. Sometimes it's a little disappointing maybe ...

ash alberg: Yeah, a hundred percent. I feel like it's this really weird. It's so funny too, ‘cause there's this weird ... I was thinking about it on the weekend because this weekend is Knit City, which is like the biggest or one of the biggest yarn festivals here in Canada. And so there's a lot of like ... there's lots of like celebrities within the yarn industry that go to these events.

And also because of social media, like sometimes folks, you're just like, okay, you're like straight up a celebrity. And then other folks are like, oh no, you're just like a normal human. And like you meet people, and most of the time everybody's just like a little awkward, ‘cause we're like all awkward creatures to begin with, but then there's still this ... I think it's nice at this stage for me, at least, where I don't really feel this feeling of being scared of people.

I'm like, you're my colleague. And some of us actually have established relationships with each other, either online and or in real life. But like for the most part, there's not anybody where I'm like, you're scary to meet, but I definitely still recall those days of being like way newer in the industry and just being so intimidated by all of these people.

amanda barcenas: Right.
ash alberg: And it's, they're just a normal person. Hi Willow. Oh no, she's

bringing one of her toys. [Laughs.] amanda barcenas: I love her.

ash alberg: She's such a, she's a goober. And you have your own Willow literally sleeping at your feet. So that's always good too. [Laughs.]

amanda barcenas: Yeah. Two giant polar pups right inside here. I don't know where ...

ash alberg: I don't actually want your toy right now, but thank you. [Talking to Willow.] [Laughs.]

But yeah it's like one of those funny things where, especially when you're like ... I think it was a little bit easier for us because we'd already been chatting in DMs for awhile, so you get a little bit better of an idea of ... but you still don't necessarily know what is it going to be when you meet somebody in real life.

Is it going to be the same or the, is the vibe going to be the same?

amanda barcenas: Yeah, exactly. I think that's like always my worry, because when you're typing something out, you can to a certain degree, like present yourself as like the best coolest person possible.

ash alberg: A hundred percent. Yeah. My Instagram is, it's me, but it's also a curated version of me. People don't need to know how much of a bitch I actually am. [Laughs.]

amanda barcenas: And I'm not going to like slide into somebody's DMs and go banana sandwich on them either. Or just be like, you want to be like diplomatic the first couple of times. [Ash laughs.] I don't know. But yeah, like you can plan out like what you're wanting to say or whatever, but like in real life, it's just like diarrhea of the mouth and what comes out sometimes.

Hopefully we have a little more self-awareness, but not always But, yeah. So it's the little, you just really want to have that same kind of vibe and energy that you have through like social media. Yeah, otherwise it's just a big let down.

ash alberg: That's so true.
amanda barcenas: Thankfully, that didn't happen when we met. [Both

laughing.] [Audio distortion.] I love Ash even more!

ash alberg: [Giggles.] I love that so much. Oh, that's so nice. And yeah, it was just like, it was so nice to meet you in real life. And I was just like, because it's so funny, like I don't get intimidated by other designers anymore ‘cause I'm just like, yeah, whatever, but like farmers, I'm just like you do such cool shit.

And I feel like there's also this, like with farmers, I feel ... and I know that this is a lie, because all humans actually do this, but I'm like, farmers give less of a shit so they're going to like, not have as many like pretenses up. Whereas I feel like designers depending on like kind of what spaces we navigate ...

amanda barcenas: Who you’re trying to impress.
ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. And so I'm always a little bit more intimidated by

farmers.

amanda barcenas: Nobody has ever said that to me. I feel like, ‘cause I feel like the opposite. Like people give two shits about like people who are selling farm yarn or the farmers, because they're just like, I don't know. There's such a, there's just still such a ... what do I want to say? Not everybody is like into the

farm yarns or has not broken into that, or doesn't see as a, I don't know ... people are so used to like using commercial and having the standardization of commercial that they like, they can't get out of that zone

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah. It's like the level of ...

amanda barcenas: Knitters in general and then designers too. That's why I love you to watch also because you're making your own yarns and you're getting them from farms and your designs are meant for yarns like that. They're meant for any yarn, but more specifically for sustainable ...

ash alberg: This is ...
amanda barcenas: ... beautiful, small batch.

ash alberg: Yeah. This is such a big thing that ... god, now I'm going to go down like a fun little tangent too, just ‘cause also right now, the ... when we're recording this it's right before the, my knitting with natural yarns masterclass coming out. So my brain is literally just like thinking about this right now, because it's like, how do you get knitters who may be actually very confident knitters, but they're not confident with natural yarns?

Like it is this thing at this point in the industry where I will get ... even yarn store owners are like, I love your yarns. I know that my customer base is not at the point where I can bring your yarns in and be able to move it. And I'm like, that's fine. I appreciate that you know your customers that well.

And I would rather that you know that and hold off on placing an order then to bring in a big order and then not have it move off your shelves, like that doesn't do anybody any good.

Willow, leave the sheepskin alone. [Laughs.]

I have, I just tanned a sheepskin and it's got it’s little feeties and Willow just keeps on like casually sniffing the feet and being like, it's fine. Don't notice me. And that is not a chew toy.

amanda barcenas: I think I can totally chew on that and it would be fiiine. ash alberg: Exactly. [Laughs.] Fuck's sake.

But yeah, the thing with natural yarns is just specifically here in Canada and the States, right? Because in other parts of the world, the ... there wasn't as much of a gap between when people needed to knit items because they're ... fast fashion wasn't a thing at that point, versus when now, as we're starting to see the industry picking back up. And the commercialized yarns, which are so sanitized, because they're so highly processed, like we lose the awareness of the fact that it's an agricultural product.

And so there's ... the growing season makes a difference. Climate change is making a massive difference on wool and breeds and how they are fairing and flock sizes and all the rest of it. If a sheep is stressed, then there are breaks in the wool, which means that you might have a sheep that has a beautiful fleece normally and then climate change is now creating these breaks in the wool. And it's ... this is a reality that everybody is facing and it's impacting everything.

But with the commercial mills, everything is so standardized. And they just throw things like they don't care about waste. And so they'll just throw out what they don't want to use. And they're also not worrying about grading for certain things, because they're going to process it to shit. So you're not going to be able to tell those differences to begin with.

And so now we're at a stage where knitters are like, they don't want any knots in their wool. And it's, depending on the spinning equipment, that's just the reality of it. And it's really not that big of a deal. And then they don't ... like a single piece of hay, they're like, “What is this? This is gross.”

And it's, this is from a sheep. The sheep was eating hay. This is part of the stuff that like, it's so wild to me. And it's just because knitters here have gotten so used to such heavily processed yarns. And then not understanding that superwash is not actually a necessary treatment at all.

If you want something that is soft next to the skin, you don't need superwash. What you need is to understand the differences between breeds and also understand the different types of spinning options so that, okay, you don't want something that's scratchy, and I'm putting that in quotation marks, then get a breed that has a softer wool and then have it spun in worsted instead of woolen and then you're going to have a smoother finish and so it's not going to poke against your skin.

And it's like understanding those things is one part of the knowledge and then the next part of the knowledge is okay, now as a designer or as a knitter working off of patterns, like, how do you play with your yarn? And I think that's part of

it, right? Is that we have this like expectation of, “everything needs to be perfect and I want all of these different things to like perfectly fall into place so that I don't need to think about it too much,” but that also removes the element of play where it's okay, just swatch a little bit and see if this yarn that, like it, say it's a sport.

Maybe it'll behave as a fingering weight, or maybe it'll behave as a DK weight and like understanding the different fibers, and what's the actual end result of the fabric that you want? Do you want something with a little bit more drape? Like play with the size of your needles, knit up a swatch, see how it's behaving and then you'll get to know what's possible.

Like it's what I love most about, especially woolen spun yarns. There's so much loft in them that you can just manipulate the shit out of that gauge. Like my Roots fingering, yeah, it's a fingering weight. Also very much behaves as a sport weight. And then my pasture DK, like I call it a DK because technically it is that. I've knit it into a really dense sport weight.

And also it honestly, the closest commercial replacement for it is the commercial worsted because those superwash yarns have no bloom left in them. And they're spun so tightly as in this worsted spun way that the pasture DK actually is the perfect replacement for it, but it's technically not a worsted weight.

And so it's like just being comfortable, I think, like showing knitters that it's okay to just try something. And if you, if it's not working, like just tear it out, use it for something else. Like it's not, it's not like when we're sewing and we chop a piece of fabric up, like there are only so many times that you can chop that fabric up before you now have a tiny scrap, but like yarn you can reuse.

amanda barcenas: Right. Yeah, I feel like with farm yarns and small batch yarns, like you have so much more leeway than you do with a, with a commercial yarn, because most of our yarns fall within two categories of weights. If not, maybe three, just depending on what type of fabric you're wanting to get from it.

ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. I feel like you're getting a lot more, I don't want to say bang for your buck, but in a way, because you have more freedom in how you can use that yarn. Plus it's just so much better for the environment. I just can't, I just can't understand why people can't understand that. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: I know! That's yeah, that's the wild bit. And then also just like generally how much better it is for your body. Like you guys have beautiful sock yarns because of the breeds that you have. And for me, I have Raynaud’s and I have shit circulation in my hands and in my feet and where I live, it is really cold in the winter.

And there is ... I, there is a literal difference that I can tell with my feet when I'm taking Willow on a walk in the winter when I have an all natural sock yarn on versus when I have a superwash merino sock. And I've knit both of them, I spent 40 hours on both pairs. But ... and I will continue to wear both of them.

And by both I ... like my gigantic, I have like over a month's worth of socks at this point, partially because I like designing them and partially ‘cause I don't like washing them. [Laughs.]

amanda barcenas: Yeah. And with natural wool ... ash alberg: You don't have to wash them as much! amanda barcenas: You don’t have to wash them!

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. Which is yeah, exactly. [Both laugh.]

amanda barcenas: Not to go off on a tangent, but like most recently there's been a lot of customers coming into our store who are like, and this happens once in a while, but I feel like it's been happening a lot lately where people are like, “Oh, I just love all the yarn in here, but I can't wear it, it's too scratchy” or “I'm allergic to it.”

ash alberg: Yeah. That's my favorite.

amanda barcenas: You can't be allergic to wool. It's hypoallergenic. What you probably are allergic to is the toxic chemicals that it has been like severely dipped in and then churned and all the rigmarole it's been put through ...

ash alberg: Exactly.

amanda barcenas: ... to become a commercial yarn. It's also too, I totally agree with what you were saying, is that these commercial yarns may not be spun to how they should be spun specific to that breed, especially when you're just blending all types, not all types of wool, but wool from all different farms.

ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda barcenas: So yeah. It's ... of course it's going to be gross. And then depending on like how the dye ... what it's dyed in, it's just adding another layer of chemical ...

ash alberg: Exactly.

amanda barcenas: ... to the wool. And I feel like ... and not to like judge or anything or be over generalizing, but it's usually a lot of older women who say this to me and I, they just have that, how wool used to be back in like the fifties and the sixties. And that's back in their brain, “My mom made these sweaters and they were so itchy and horrible and blah, blah, blah.”

That's not how ... so I try to encourage people to try a farm yarn, find a breed that you really love and ‘cause they're all minimally processed.

ash alberg: Exactly. And it's, it also depends on the spending equipment, right? Like we have there's three traditional mills, like historical mills that still operate. Two are on the east coast. And one is in the Prairies, here in Canada specifically. And so I work with Custom and they're the one in Alberta.

The other two are on the east coast. And one of them like straight up is it is not the nicest yarn to put next to your skin. Like it is truly when you imagine that, what's the yarn that your grandma's moms were knitting with, that is that yarn. And no, it's not the thing that you necessarily want next to your skin, but it is totally the yarn that you want to be knitting your fishermen sweaters from those breeds that grow well in that climate because it's like ocean spray.

And so their fleeces are actually exactly what you want for your outer layers. It's just not what you want as your inner layers. And so that's where, okay. Become more aware of the different options that are available to you.

And then the other thing that drives me fucking up the wall, because ... but we had our fiber trail a couple of weeks ago and I had the same thing where I had people coming through and honestly, I was impressed with the number of people who were new knitters and were nervous about using my yarns. And once I would like ... I have samples knit out of all of my yarns. And so it was like, okay, pet this, get an idea of what it feels like.

But the number of people who wanted to knit for babies and were looking for superwash and I'm just like, oh my god!

amanda barcenas: That’s the other thing that has been coming. That's the other comment that has been happening a lot lately as well. Do you have anything for babies? And I'm like, all of it.

ash alberg: Everything. Literally all of it. [Chuckles.] amanda barcenas: And they're like, “But you can't wash it.”

I'm like, you can wash it, just not in the washing machine and you don't have to wash it a bazillion times because wool doesn’t hold on to odor and if you get a spot on it, you can just spot clean it or ...

ash alberg: Or squish it in the sink with some soap and then lay it flat to dry.

amanda barcenas: It doesn't take long. I feel like there has been this I don't know, misinformation about washing wool or that, people don't want to knit with wool or whatever, because it's a lot of work maintenance-wise.

ash alberg: Yeah. Which is not true at all. Like the number of times that I wash my wool sweaters, maybe twice a year, maybe? And I, meanwhile my, like my regular ... my regular? My, my like store bought cardigans out of whatever cotton blends are, they get washed minimum once a week. Because again, I'm walking Willow on a daily basis.

Like they get stinky, my wool sweaters do not get stinky, but they get stinky. And I'm doing more maintenance of those sweaters and yeah, they just get tossed in the washing machine. But I also fairly regularly through the winter season have to give them like a spot wash with chemical stuff that I don't like, but that's the only option to actually get the stink out of them because they hold stink.

And it's like my sweater, my wool sweaters don't do that. amanda barcenas: No. Yep. Just hand-wash people.
ash alberg: That's very simple. It's better for the environment. amanda barcenas: It's no big deal.

ash alberg: It's real. Yeah. And then you literally just leave it flat to dry. You don't even have to think about it.

amanda barcenas: No, it's no big deal. And honestly, if you're taking the time to knit something by hand, beautifully, why would you even want to risk? Even if you're knitting with superwash, like, why would you even want to risk throwing that in the washer? And then, I don't know, do you throw superwash in the dryer?

ash alberg: I know people who do! And it's like the, just the possibility of snagging, like ...

amanda barcenas: Yeah!
ash alberg: Even if it doesn't felt, it could snag.

amanda barcenas: Or if something else in your wash bleeds onto it or whatever ...

ash alberg: Completely. Exactly.
amanda barcenas: But then if you're still laying it flat to dry, like you haven't

really cut out a step.

ash alberg: No, exactly. So it's like, what was the point of that? And it actually takes longer to go through a wash cycle than it does to squish it in the sink with some soap, with some wool wash, which you don't even have to rinse out, and then laying it flat to dry it's. Yeah, no it's fairly wild. And that ... yeah.

[Both talking at the same time.]

And then the, the other thing that's interesting is this concept of ... I think for a lot of knitters making is our love language. Or if it's not like a ... it's a primary love language. And so we also feel this ... not even like sometimes, yeah, there's an expectation that you're going to knit for everybody, but there's also like a desire to knit for everybody because making is a love language.

And I try to reinforce this idea of determining who is knitworthy in your life, because it's, just because you love somebody and you also love to make things and to knit does not mean that you have to knit for that person as a means of showing love. Because if they're literally not capable of, after you've spent all this time and energy and hours and also cost investing in knitting them a thing, especially if your knitting time is finite, but even if you have all the time in the world, you're going to put all that time into that.

And then you're going to give it to them and say, “Please just wash this in the sink. Or you don't even really need to wash it because it's a hat.” And then they toss it in the washing machine. Like to me, I'm like, okay, that person's not.

And that's actually how I test people. I'm like, I'm going to give you a small thing and see if you take care of it. And if you do, great, we'll just like slowly build up your woolen wardrobe. But if you don't take care of it, that's fine. I'll bake you cookies, or I'll make you some bread or I’ll sew you a thing instead, but I'm not going to knit another thing for you because you can't be bothered to care for it, and that's fine. That's not where your brain is at.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. Also, if their reaction is less than underwhelming, I'm just like, no.

ash alberg: Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Never again.
This is also why I'm like, whenever somebody is, “Oh, can I, can you knit me a

thing?” And it's somebody that I'm actually willing to knit with, I'm like, cool.

You're going to come with me. We're going to pick the yarn. And then you're going to pick either the pattern or if I'm designing something for you, then we're going to like, look at stitches and we're gonna, we're building it together because I am not spending all this time on this thing and then you not loving it.

amanda barcenas: Right! It's a lot of work. ash alberg: So much work. Yeah.

amanda barcenas: It’s lot of work. Not very many people aren't worthy. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: No, they're really not. It's so interesting just thinking about like the labor that goes into making of things. Like when I was doing the sheepskin tanning workshop, as I was scraping my sheepskin, I literally, at one point was like, I understand now, like the wedding chests that people used to build, because it was like labor of love. And not necessarily at a time where love was the reason that people were getting married ...

but I'm like, I would, not that I'm planning on getting married now or anytime soon, but I'm like, I, to me then I would sew, like hand sew a quilt and knit a blanket and tan a sheepskin. And like those three things for the shared bed is

like this incredible ... there's so many hours of love and investment put into that.

And then like the like intentions and spell casting that you're doing as you're like building these things for this person and life that you're like proposing together is, there's so much just built into that. That's there's your wedding gift, me to you!

amanda barcenas: Maria, @ninjachickens, right? So she didn't do that, but she did, her daughter just went off to college and she made this whole like hope chest kind of.

ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda barcenas: College version. And had a chest built. Her neighbor, and I think her husband, built this little chest. She knitted like the sweet little mole stuffy who comes with knitted clothes and accessories and everything.

ash alberg: Oohhh.
amanda barcenas: And Maria built this for Kaia, and for her to take off to

college.

And I thought the exact same thing, I'm like, this is the knitter’s hope chest in that. It was just filled with all the love and care and thoughtfulness for her to send her off to college with. And it was so, it was so ... like, I think I cried at one of her posts ‘cause I'm like, this is just too much for me, right now.

ash alberg: [Cackles.] You're like, my kids aren't even close to college age, but I'm going to have to start now.

amanda barcenas: Stop, it’s too much!

ash alberg: [Laughs.] It's so true though. There's just so much love and I guess we'll talk ... we should probably start getting actual like ritual questions, but like the ritual of making for a loved one is just, I literally, I was like, okay, like you do this process of making these three different types of blankets for a marriage bed.

And then also I would do the exact same thing then for each kid too. And it's yeah, you make like smaller versions. But it's, it's just all of this love that you put into a thing.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. My grandmother was a quilter and she quilt ... made a college quilt for all of her grandchildren ...

ash alberg: I love that.
amanda barcenas: ... in their like university colors and everything. And it's

like one of my most treasured items. ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda barcenas: One, it's beautiful. I love it. But two, it's from my grandmother and she has since passed on, but I miss her dearly every single day.

And it's one of the few things that I have left of her and yeah. It's just that whole act of like craft making and whatever is just amazing. And then if you're the recipient of that, it's just, I don't know. I have a few of her quilts that she has made and I just love every ... even if the aesthetic of that particular quilt isn’t it my jam, like it's from my grandma though.

And it's just so great.
ash alberg: Yeah, exactly.

amanda barcenas: Because I know the time and work that went into it and I can appreciate every single stitch that went into that little masterpiece. So yeah.

ash alberg: Exactly. Which is also why natural wool is better because they will last for many generations.

amanda barcenas: Right?

ash alberg: So much better.

amanda barcenas: Just watch out for moths. That's your only thing.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. [Both laugh.] Get a cedar chest, invest in it. You will not be sorry.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. Yeah. Or lavender and mint and whatever you can throw in there to be safe

ash alberg: Exactly. All the things. And then shake things out once a year. You're good.

Okay. [Laughs and snorts.] So we've had like a half hour tangent ... amanda barcenas: Now that we’ve gone waaay around ...

ash alberg: [Laughs.] Now that we found a whole podcast episode worth of talking about other things, I love it too. People are used to it, I think, at this point in the podcast. So tell us a bit about you and what you do in the world.

amanda barcenas: So, I don't know if very many people know this, but I used to be a teacher. I used to be a biology teacher. Yeah.

And when we moved to Pennsylvania, like a few years after we lived there, we started our flock of three Romney ewes and added a ram and added a few more sheep. I will tell you once you start in like the livestock world, it's really easy to collect them and just keep getting more.

ash alberg: This is what I've heard.

amanda barcenas: It's almost like you’re just like on a mission of the golden sheep on the way or whatever it is. The same thing has happened to me with chickens. I just can't have enough, honestly.

So yeah, we started out with our three Romney ewes, who we still have, and a Romney ram. And then we got some Lincolns to throw in there and a couple more Romneys and yeah, we've been doing it ever since.

And so for about seven years, and this was our biggest lambing season this year. We had 37 lambs. Yeah. It was a lot, it's almost sent me over the edge. I don't ever want to do that again. [Ash cackles.]

It's just a lot, but we have a really, we have some of these CVM Romney cross lambs, and they are just so beautiful. Like, I can't bring myself to sell them, even though I probably should, but I want to give them at least a year to see how their fleece grows out.

ash alberg: Yes!

amanda barcenas: And because they're all like this smoky gray and their faces are just so like patchy and whatever, like they're beautiful.

ash alberg: Cuute!

amanda barcenas: So yeah, I just want to see. And then when we moved to Stockbridge, a couple of years ago, we opened up a yarn shop. Like on a whim, truly.

Like the kids and I were walking through town and saw this little space available for rent and I'm like, oh, that's nice. That would be ... and I think it was Noelle, she was like, this would be a great yarn store! [Ash laughs.] But I was like, I never want to be like the yarn store lady.

ash alberg: Yeah. And then ...

amanda barcenas: And then, yeah. And I thought the rent would not be affordable because it's right on main street. Our town is, this area that we live in is pretty affluent. But it turned out it was, and we have always been like farmer-focused and supportive and obviously wool supportive and focused.

I knew I did not want to have commercial yarns in our store. I want to have farm yarns and it's small batch yard. Small, natural indie dyers and things like that, just because I really want to celebrate small businesses because they need the help! And also to promote different breeds of wool. We only have wool in our store, so there's no other fibers, except maybe a smidge of mohair, but not kid mohair, adult mohair from a farm.

So yeah. That's been, I think the last time I counted, there were 16 breeds of wool in our shop, which is really fun because then you can really, truly ... it's like a fiber festival in our store every single day, basically.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly.

amanda barcenas: So yeah, that's what I do. We started sorting or sourcing wool from, from other farms in the area. We source some Romney from a town close by us. And then we recently sourced some farm merino, which is much different than a commercial merino and definitely different from a superwash.

ash alberg: It's so nice.
amanda barcenas: It is nice. It's a little soft for me.

ash alberg: Yeah, I, yeah. It's like, I mean, this is the thing with merino, which also honestly drives me nuts whenever ... not like, being as much of a nerd about sock yarn as I am, I'm like superwash merino is literally the last thing you want on your feet.

But merino in generally ... in general is the last breed you want on your feet because it's so soft and it's a short staple. It's like the worst combination that you could have.

amanda barcenas: It’s gonna pill and you're going to have the darn the Dickens out of it all the time. Yeah, I would never recommend it as a sock yarn.

ash alberg: Nope. But if you want to make a soft baby blanket, there you go.

amanda barcenas: There you go. So yeah, we sourced some merino, natural colored merino, so not just white, which is amazing, from Rhode Island. We started our Ovejas yarn line with that. And so I've been naturally dying those.

We keep our own farm yarn natural colored because it would kill me to dye over those.

ash alberg: And you have such beautiful colored fleeces in your flock.

amanda barcenas: Yeah, that's what I ... we just have a really great array of natural color within our flock and within breeds that we have too. So yeah, that's what I do.

ash alberg: I love it. And you guys have, do you work with a mini mill? Because you often will do ... is it fleece-specific yarns that you are sometimes doing or are you able to combine like similar-ish places?

amanda barcenas: Both. So I wouldn't say that we work with a mini mill. They do spin commercially. We do work with a mill that will spin a really long staple length, which is hard to find here.

ash alberg: Yyess.
amanda barcenas: Because most mini mills are like the Belfast mini mills ... [Both talking at the same time.]

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. That equipment ... like six inches it maxes out at, which is honestly the ongoing issue that Anna and I are just constantly trying to find like durable enough fibers without being the long wools ‘cause the long wools just are a pain in the ass on that equipment.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. You have to shear twice a year. And our Romneys and our Lincolns, the Lincolns are very long wool and then the Romneys are a longer-ish wool. So yeah, you would have to shear them twice a year. And I don't want to do that. If I'm going to have long wool sheep, I want to have long wool sheep.

And yeah, thankfully we have, we've been using this mill in Pennsylvania who can spin a really long staple length for us. Plus I think it works better when, especially with the Lincolns who don't have much crimp, you need the stapling to make it more easily spinnable.

ash alberg: Yeah, totally.
amanda barcenas: We use, they are a semi-worsted spun mill, which I think

works really well for the long wools. So yeah, we get a nice smooth-ish yarn.

But yeah, when we started using them, we didn't have as many sheep and I really wanted to keep some things like fleece-specific.

ash alberg: Yeah.
amanda barcenas: And they were willing to do that. And she still, she still

does it for me.
ash alberg: [Chuckles.] That's so nice.

amanda barcenas: I know she curses me every time, but we have enough sheep now too where I'm like, I can put similar colors and staple lengths and textures together.

I don't, my whole hang-up is, I don't want to change the characteristics of each particular sheep. That's how neurotic I’ve become about this.

ash alberg: [Laughs.] I love it.

amanda barcenas: I don't know. I just feel like I owe it to them to like, do their wool justice. And yeah, she's ... they've been great. They even bought sheep from us. They have their own flock.

But yeah, she'll do it for me and not every mill will do that. Even if I'm just doing two fleeces, because I'm wanting to create, like I’m creating this moorit yarn this time that is for my ewe, Hazel, who's like a blue-gray Romney.

ash alberg: Nice.
amanda barcenas: Then my other ewe, Addie, who's like a golden-taupe-y

color, so it'll be moorit.
ash alberg: That's going to be sooo pretty. Oh my god. amanda barcenas: [Whispers] I’ll save you some. ash alberg: Yes, please.

amanda barcenas: But yeah. I'm really, we're really fortunate to have them, that they are willing to like, bend over backwards to do that for us. Because I know not every mill would, or maybe you wouldn't even want to even ask a mill if they would do that for you because they might be like, “You're crazy.”

ash alberg: [Laughs.] Yeah. Like we don't want any of your business if this is the way you're approaching it.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. Just get out! So yeah, they will, if there is like fleece or wool from a particular sheep ... usually it's my ewe Hazel that I never blend, ever. This is only the second time that I ... I wouldn't even call it a blend because she's a moorit.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly.
amanda barcenas: But I would never blend her with anyone else. And they’ll

spin that one flippin’ Romney fleece for me, no problem. ash alberg: Oh, that's so nice.
amanda barcenas: It’s really cool

ash alberg: ‘Cause it's also ...

amanda barcenas: In a way it's a little counterproductive because ...

ash alberg: It just ends up being so expensive. Like you, like the price of the processing for that and then the number of skeins, you're like we're basically breaking even but it is one of those things where you're like, it's just going to be worth it in this moment.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. She, her yarn particularly sells out every single time. Last year I didn't even sell her yarn because my worst fear is like her passing away. And I've never knit with Hazel in my entire life.

ash alberg: Oh my god!
amanda barcenas: Since we've had her, I've never knit with her because, [Ash

gasps] running a business, you're like, I gotta make all the money.

And I can't like it. I can't ...

ash alberg: You can't be precious about them to that extent, but it's also, it ...

amanda barcenas: I gotta make the money, but I also am like, I never knit with Hazel and my worst fear is for her to pass away and I don't have anything ...

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda barcenas: ... knitted out of her. So I kept all of her yarn last year, except for some random skeins that went to some of our virtual shepherds. And that's it.

ash alberg: Smart move. That way you at least have one ... this is like, Tansy is not going to be making it past November has been the decision. She's 13 or 14 years old at this point as well. And it's been it, the climate here is just, it was a really hot summer. It's going to be a cold winter, like ...

amanda barcenas: It was bad for you guys this year!

ash alberg: Ugh, it's been bad.

So yeah, my ... I'm going to be going up to Kristell’s farm once, once Tansy is butchered. And I'd already been like, OK, I'm like, the meat is going to go mostly to Willow, but also probably I'll take some and stew it and then the bones I'm going to keep. But then the fleece ...

amanda barcenas: You should ask for the tallow too. ash alberg: Ooh, yes, yeah. Do that as well.

Oh, that's going to be so nice. That'll be special. Yeah. Oh my god! That's a great idea. Yep. And then some candles, some ritual candles.

And then, but I'm going to be going up to Kristell’s for a few days to process the fleece as well and like tan the sheepskin. And I'm just like, I'm so looking forward to it ‘cause it's just going to be such a nice, like ending ritual.

And I think this is a thing that like, especially for those of us who are urban and have been separated from this process of things like the sacredness of this process of like once a special animal has passed on and just spending that time. But even like for me, it's going to be extra special and especially tanning her fleece, but like the ... like any animal, if you're like husbanding that creature, and then it passes on and then using the whole animal is just like a really important way of honoring that life, regardless of whether it was like slaughtered because that was the plan or it like died of natural causes or died in an accident, like whatever it is to make use of that animal is just so important.

And I feel like the industrialization of the meat industry in particular has just separated all of the things out and also just like compartmentalized and created so many waste processes. That is part of why the meat industry is so bad at this point. And if we are able to shift back towards this method where we're actually honoring the animal and using the whole animal, then it changes the dynamic of that whole experience.

amanda barcenas: Great. The meat industry, and like any other big ag[riculture] industry has become so commercialized and so removed ...

ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda barcenas: ... that we've lost the really important skill of the small butcher and all that they can do for you. And yeah, being ... like getting all the parts back and being able to use all of those parts.

Yeah. I've got real beef with big ag right now. But that's for a different day. [Both laugh.]

ash alberg: That's a different podcast episode. [Laughs.]

So it's so funny ‘cause we were like having this conversation and I, for anybody who's not in, not even just not in our industry, but not specifically in like small farm yarn, like small batch, actually like agricultural level of production, then they're like ... the casual knitters listening to this and being like, what the fuck are they talking about?

And what does this have to do with witchcraft or anything or ritual? And to me I'm like, all of this is ritual. Like it's all, this is all the whole point of it. But as hedge witches, for us, we're like, yeah, of course this is how we do things. But tell us a bit about your relationship with ritual and witchcraft and magic and any of that.

amanda barcenas: I can't say, because I want to just be honest that like I haven’t been into like witchcraft and all of that for very long. I'm learning a lot and trying to do a lot of research, like listening to you and Anna and my friend Serena. Like just learning from you.

And I feel like a lot of it is ... I feel a very strong connection to nature and to using a lot of things like herbs and things like that medicinally. And like I've used that a lot with the sheep. And a friend of mine who has sheep in Pennsylvania, we talk a lot about using herbs and things, more natural things for like the betterment of the health of our sheep and things like that.

But I have always just felt a very strong connection with nature spirit, in nature in a way, if that makes sense.

ash alberg: Yep. It does. I feel like that's like super, like honest and also it is honestly a really common experience for a lot of folks, especially of our millennial generation, which is like no longer ... I like, whenever I say millennial, I'm like, we're so young and I'm like, we're not young anymore [Laughs.]

But it is this experience of yeah, this pull to nature and pull to these traditional ways of working that are rooted in like thousands of years, not even hundreds of years, but like thousands of years of practice. And, but also a lot of separation lately and in the last few generations. And just depending on like your ancestral lines and how separated from ancestral lands and then therefore traditions, like how far apart that is.

And so trying to re-gain those connections is tricksy.

amanda barcenas: Yeah, totally. And then there's still ... there's this ... so I grew up Catholic.

ash alberg: Right.
amanda barcenas: So there's that ... ash alberg: [Laughs.] Yeah. [Snorts.]

amanda barcenas: That's a different, that's a different subject for a different day, but there is a lot of that. Not so much with me anymore because I know ... just, anyways, but yeah.

I think you don't get to explore things as much if you're in a type of religion that is very ... doesn't want you to explore.

ash alberg: Yeah. Yes. [Laughs.] And it's so funny too, though, because Catholicism ...

amanda barcenas: It's very ritualized!

ash alberg: ... is so ritualized and honestly is consistently around the world. The, especially within the Christian options, is the one that so many of the traditional slash pagan slash Indigenous traditions have managed to maintain themselves under the cloak of Catholicism by just being like, yeah, we're just going to do this thing.

And of course we're relating it to the divine, holy mother. Sure. Let's go with that. And meanwhile, it's no, you're like praying to a different goddess and it's because of the heaviness of the ritualization, then there's a little bit easier way of maintaining those old ways, but then they become completely intwined in that.

And so then picking them apart and figuring out okay, what's rooted in where and how much of it is like actually fully connected. And how much of it can you no longer pull apart because it's so intertwined?

amanda barcenas: It's so homogenized at that point. ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. I think a great ... so Alberto's from Mexico and they celebrate a Day of the Dead there, which I love. I think it's one of the most beautiful ... and I have not been to a Day of the Dead celebration in Mexico, but that's one of the things that we really want to do when it’s safe to travel during that time of year ‘cause I think the kids should really experience that part of their heritage and background also.

ash alberg: Yeahh!

amanda barcenas: But Day of the Dead came out of the Mayans, which, there is a lot of ritual and magic and spiritualism behind that. And here you have that kind of pagan holiday and ritual where in Latin American countries that are very Catholic or very Christian, how do you rectify that?

And I think they just don't even think about it because it's been so unrooted in their culture for so long. Like why would you ever stop?

ash alberg: Yes. And that's the thing, right? It's, it's there, there are certain things that no matter what colonization has tried to do, regardless of who is colonizing who, and at what point in time in history, like there are certain things that they just, they didn't even ... maybe they tried to get rid of it and it was just not, it was so ingrained in that community, they were like, we're not getting rid of this. All these other things, yeah, you're changing. This is not a thing you're changing.

amanda barcenas: Yeah, no. Yeah. I love Day of the Dead. I feel like I even correspond with Day of the Dead more than Alberto does. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: It's not ancestor worship though, like in talking to the spirits.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. So my family is originally from Italy and Germany. I feel like I identify more with the Italian side of my family and I feel like we've had to, in a lot of ways, there was probably some degree of that kind of ritualization and communing with your past loved ones. And I feel like the

Italian culture has a lot of mysticism and spiritualism and traditions in that regard.

So yeah, I just, I love everything that rituals and traditions and witchcraft have behind it for so many reasons, because I think it's all a part of us, no matter what we're doing, because it's, whatever, wherever you, your ancestors came from, they were doing something like that.

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah. I feel like that's such a big part of it too, right, is that nobody's bloodlines, regardless of where those bloodlines have come from were devoid of some sort of ritual. Like humans as a species, we have always needed ritual. And we shift the ritual over time and there are like big shifts and little shifts, but we are creatures that look for patterns.

We are creatures that look for meaning. We are creatures that are constantly trying to figure out, like, why, what's the answer to these bigger, larger questions and how can I make my day to day make sense? And those rituals help with that.

amanda barcenas: I agree. And I think always just searching for signs. Something that says you're on the right path or no, you're not on the right path. You better get the hell out of here. [Laughs.]

ash alberg: Yes, totally. Yeah. Yeah. And just try to be like, okay, I don't know what the fuck's going on right now. Can somebody give me some sort of a sign that I'm either doing something the right way or going to the wrong place?

amanda barcenas: Yeah, I feel like we’ve lost a lot of our intuition too and trusting of ourselves for whatever reason. I think we've become too technical of a society and we've relied on things, non-human things to do things for us and to think for us and to feel for us. And we’ve lost our own intuition and ability to trust ourselves and ...

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah.
amanda barcenas: That’s a lot of what's wrong with us.

ash alberg: Yeah, no, I fully agree. And it's so interesting, like being somebody who's very tuned into intuition and tuned into that, like other level of vibration and experiencing humans who are not, and then connecting with them at a level where they are not expecting it and it scares the shit out of them.

And then they also there's a defensiveness that then comes up with that because it is scary to have somebody just go straight into that area that you're not even connected with. And then there's like almost like a rejection of it and like this no, there's no way that you can know this thing and I don't know this thing.

And then ... and makes, tries to make you question your own intuition because they're not solid enough in their intuition or it's just ... yeah. It creates this like very weird dynamic in social spaces, which also like social spaces have become so differently defined nowadays.

amanda barcenas: Right. I think people have also lost the or maybe just don't feel comfortable with like having deep connections.

ash alberg: Yes! Oh, yeah.

amanda barcenas: That everything is very surface and shallow level. And it's very hard, especially for somebody, I feel like our age, my age, I know I'm older than you.

ash alberg: Not by too much though, I don't think. [Cackles.] You’re like ... amanda barcenas: [Laughs.] But yeah, like making new friends ...
ash alberg: It's fucking hard!

amanda barcenas: When we moved here, I'm okay with saying I don't have maybe more than two friends here. Two, three friends. And I'm okay with that because I know I have other friends in other areas, they’re just not here.

ash alberg: Yes.
amanda barcenas: Which is sucky on a level because you just want to have

people around you.

I'm not a person that needs a ton of people around me anyways. I've never been that way. I've always been like, I just need a small group of solid people. But yeah, it's hard making connections with people, even if it's just not even on a friendship level, but just even an acquaintance kind of level or a business kind of level that isn't like super surface.

Or like just finding ... I guess that's the one good thing about social media is finding people that you connect with ‘cause you like all the same things. That's the one time where I'm like, the algorithm kind of works. Otherwise I curse the algorithm.

ash alberg: Yes! Agreed. [Laughs.]
amanda barcenas: But yeah, I feel like we have really lost that connection of

just like getting beyond that really stupid, small talk level. ash alberg: Yeah.

And I'm just like, I'm ... there's too much Sagittarius in my chart to even be willing to put up with that shit [Laughs.] Which also I think that like also freaks people out. You're just like, okay, cool. And my Venus is in Pisces, so I'm like, cool. Let's like, tell me all about your trauma from childhood to now, and that's how we're going to connect. And that's how we're going to build a relationship.

And people are like, what the fuck?
amanda barcenas: Yeah. Cut the crap, let's dive in. ash alberg: Yeah.
amanda barcenas: Because nobody has time for ...

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. I will talk about the weather in so far as let's talk about climate change and what is that doing? And I'm, we're going to talk about these surface level things and immediately go deep and otherwise, like I've got other shit to do. Why am I wasting my time here?

amanda barcenas: Great. Great. I agree. But that is something that I'm still learning too, astrological signs and things like that.

ash alberg: Oh, I feel like I'm such a newbie with it. Like I'm like baby level with it.

amanda barcenas: Oh, then like I'm like amoeba level. [Ash cackles.] I’m single celled organism level. But that's ... I just, that's what I love about all of this is that there's just so much to learn and be connected with.

And it's super cliche, but it's like, because spider webs and witches and whatever, but it's all like a giant web of all these connections. Like deep connections that I’m really wanting to have in my life more and more. I feel like I'm most to a level that's just, I can’t explain it to Alberto ...

ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda barcenas: ... in a way, just because it's, I don't know. I was talking to, and this is so random, too. But, and I think a lot of it has had to do with the pandemic and spending like your every waking hour ... like for when the shop was closed and everybody was in lockdown, like we still had to go out and feed our sheep, which was great.

Honestly, our lives didn't change a whole lot. ash alberg: Yeah. Same.

amanda barcenas: Because like we still had to do those things because it cleared ... that it cleared a lot of clutter out of my head. Doing those things in turn, though, I feel like I've become so deeply connected with the sheep in a way that is a little unnerving to me sometimes.

ash alberg: Mmm. Mhmm. Yep. amanda barcenas: If that makes sense. ash alberg: It totally does.

amanda barcenas: Like we're a little too connected or maybe we're not, but I feel like sometimes I, worry or am too involved in them in a way, if that makes sense.

ash alberg: That totally makes sense. That ... so I feel like, yeah, my relationship with plants this year has like really shifted in a way that I was not fully anticipating to be as intense. And then also like spirit world shit. Like I did a lot of shadow work last year, and now this year I'm just like, ghosts are around all the fucking time and I'm like, we need to have some better boundaries.

And also like I've spent my whole life keeping you guys at bay and then failing to keep you at bay. And then being like mahh, what the hell is going on? And now they're just pretty consistently around. And it's so interesting. And also it's,

it's spooky season now, right? Like we're coming towards Samhain and the thinning of the veil is happening.

It already, during Beltane is also a different thinning of the veil, but it's like, there are two points in the year. Beltane feels not quite as, I don't know, it's like active, but in a different kind of a way. Samhain is, it's a specific kind of a way. And I'm just like, oh god, here we go. Now I got to figure out like, how am I going to make my house welcoming to who I want to welcome.

And then also making sure that the others know these are the boundaries of being in this household. If you're going to be around, do this, don't do that.

amanda barcenas: Ash, I didn't know this about you!
ash alberg: Oh yeah. It's fun. [Cackles.]
amanda barcenas: I just want to come hang out with you now. ash alberg: Yes.

amanda barcenas: And just be around that. [Ash chuckles.] I felt like I would be nervous and a little scared, but I think it would be great to experience that.

ash alberg: It's ... yeah.
amanda barcenas: But not all the time.

ash alberg: This is the thing. Yeah. Like having better boundaries around it is definitely, I am very grateful and lucky to have mediums around me who are like much more used to doing this. And also have been vibrating at a very specific level for a much longer period of time. And really developed very good structures around the way that they do things.

I, at this point I feel like the door is just like slowly opening up, like wider cracks. And so like now I'm more aware of more things kicking around, but not, and like in certain situations, absolutely, I'm like, okay, somebody came and sat in that chair right now. Which often happens during therapy, which is interesting.

But the ... I don't, it's not like I like walk around and see somebody's spirit guides in the way that I've met many witches over the years who, of like a

various ancestral backgrounds who are like, they see things much more clearly than I do. I more frequently just feel different presences.

And sometimes they take more solid shape, other times it's okay, you're shedding like little bits of ghosts. So we're just going to sweep those little bits of ghost out the door. [Laughs.] But it's, yeah. It's wild. It's interesting. Yeah.

amanda barcenas: That’s nuts. Oh wow! ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda barcenas: I’ve always wondered ... I feel like I have not allowed myself to be open to that in fear.

ash alberg: This is, yeah, this is a big part of it. And then it comes through in ways that are just so loud and screaming that it got, for me, it got to a point where I had to address it because it had been, it just reappeared it at a level where it was like ... it had gone away for a while ‘cause I blocked it out and then it came roaring back through and I was like, OK, we need to figure out like, what the hell is going on.

And now I'm generally more open to the experience, but throughout my life I've always seen ghosts and spirits at different points and like in different places. Which actually it was so funny ‘cause when Anna and I were staying at our AirBnB for Rhinebeck, the area behind our cottage was like so heavily haunted.

And we were both just like, OK, all right, we're just not going to that space. But that was the background literally of then the Rhinebeck trip, which was fucking wild.

amanda barcenas: WHAT?!
ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah. That land is so haunted. So haunted. Oh my god.

amanda barcenas: Oh, I don't doubt that for one second. I feel like this whole, like New England-y area is probably just ...

ash alberg: It's just screaming. amanda barcenas: Cluttered.

ash alberg: Yeah. Yes. Cluttered is really good word for it actually. Yeah. amanda barcenas: Oh, yikes! Oh, I want you to come here now.
ash alberg: [Laughs.] Yes. I mean also ...
amanda barcenas: Come here anyways!

ash alberg: I know. I keep on trying to figure out like how do I like get to my friends in the States, but like bypass all the rest of the States at this particular point in time? [Snorts.]

amanda barcenas: Yeah. Anna and I are in the same state, so there you go. ash alberg: Yes. I just need to drive down and just take back roads so that I

avoid as many people as possible.
amanda barcenas: Yeah.
ash alberg: This could work.
amanda barcenas: Or you just drive to the border and we pick you up. ash alberg: That could also work. Yeah.

amanda barcenas: Yeah, okay. Let's make that happen. ash alberg: All right. [Laughs.]

Too funny. Okay. I love how many tangents were going on. So how does ritual play out in the way that you're doing work at this point? Or how do you imagine it impacting things moving forward maybe, as well?

amanda barcenas: That’s a great question. I think there's like ... you tell me what you think, but I think there's a ritual in just routine ...

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda barcenas: ... in a way. That same thing. I have found that if I don't do ... I'm not a routine person anyways, like I don't really schedule myself throughout the day, but when I'm out doing like a specific ... like doing chores

with the sheep, I do it at the exact same way almost every time, because I'm fearful that I would forget something or miss something.

So there is that ritual of routine. And when I'm spending time with the sheep, I do this kind of weird counting system to make sure everybody is there, every single time. Maybe that's OCD?

ash alberg: [Laughs.] It's so interesting though ‘cause I feel like frequently mental health and ritual slash magic, like there's a pretty heavy overlap and like sometimes I'm like, yeah, okay, that's the OCD kicking in and other times it's like, nope, that's actually ... we're just gonna do a little bit of spell casting right now.

And like, it’s ... yeah. amanda barcenas: Yeah.

Because I think I would be ... because there have been times where I'd have done something like out of order or something distracted me and I didn't do, I didn't do whatever it was that I would normally do or whatever. And then I was just an anxiety mess the rest of the day.

This is ... maybe I should tell people who are listening, who don't maybe know us, but like our sheep do not live where we live. So we drive about 10 - 15 minutes from where we live. So I have to be really careful in making sure that everybody's okay, because normally we only go out like once or twice a day to go check on them, feed them or whatever.

ash alberg: Yeah.
amanda barcenas: I can’t look out my window to see like something has

happened or whatever. ash alberg: Yeah, exactly.

amanda barcenas: So I always have some degree of anxiety rolling up every morning, ‘cause you just don’t know what you're going to find

I do a lot of putting out into the universe every day. And as I'm like pulling in, please, that everybody be okay, like just let me find everybody as they should be. It's the same thing here. I think I do that all the time.

But yeah, I have found like I just, when I'm out there, I do a lot of weird things in a certain order because it makes sense to me and it gives me peace of mind.

ash alberg: Yeah. Yep. I, yeah, that totally makes sense to me. And it's, I think it's really interesting too, just the way that like, depending on the work that we are doing, then the level of ritual or not ... I feel like there's this idea that to be witchy means that every single aspect of your life has like a certain specific level of ritual for every single thing.

And it's ... my experience is definitely not that. There's definitely a certain level of meditation and trance and ritual that goes into various making processes. When I am doing like, making medicines or doing kitchen witch work, then that's got a certain level of almost like very mundane kind of stuff.

And then there's, and then dye pots are a different level of it. amanda barcenas: I want that too. [Audio distortion.]

ash alberg: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yes. And then there's the, the like bigger level things. It's so funny, right now I am battling mice and it is driving me up the fucking wall. I am so annoyed with them.

And I, in theory, I should, be gracious and in reality, I'm like, nope, your poops are in my house. Get out.

amanda barcenas: Getting into like your walls?
ash alberg: Yes! Ugh, and you hear the little scratching. I'm like, no, you all

need to die or get out of my house.

amanda barcenas: And you can hear them at night, and you can't sleep because they're just [makes scratchy critter sound.]

ash alberg: Yeah, they haven't made it there. They make me so mad. And I've never had mice before and yeah, they got in this year. And so I'm currently battling them. And as a result also of battling them that I'm having to deep clean my house in like ... and I don't have time to do this shit, but it's also okay, it is the time of year where a deep clean is necessary.

I just would rather not be doing it at the same time that I'm trying to do a bajillion other things. And I was talking to my mom about it because she came over to help me deep clean my pantry. She's a good mama. And we, she was

talking about how, ‘cause like I'm the witch of the family. My, my mom is not, like my parents don't identify as that, but it's been very interesting.

I think my mom has been able to connect with me through the witch ... just like ritual and spirituality of it in a way that when ... I was like very heavily agnostic for basically all of my life otherwise, and she didn't quite know how to relate to me on that level. And the witchcraft is a thing that is almost like an easier way for her to connect with, because she also has seen ghosts and all those fun things.

And so we were talking about, she's just like, the energy, just, it feels better in the house. It feels lighter. And I'm like, yeah, I know, ‘cause you're clearing out, like all of the ... you're like freshening up the energy, you’re moving the old ghosts out of the house. And yeah, there's ... so that's a different kind of ritual.

And then of course there's the like actually sitting down and like pouring a salt circle and like lighting some candles and doing more specific work for that, or setting an altar. Like there's different kinds of ritual and different kinds of almost depth that we go into depending on the work that we are doing.

But I think it also makes sense that especially that in the past year, you're also connecting with the sheep at a level that you didn't before, because just the space for that ritual was allowed to amplify almost.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. Yeah, it was. It's been intense and I think it has a lot to do with the pandemic. [Audio distortion.] Also, I think I just carry more of an emotional, an emotional load for them than say Alberto does. Not that he doesn't love the sheep or whatever, but it's me that is bringing that on myself.

ash alberg: Right, yeah.
amanda barcenas: Not anybody else. But, but yeah.

It's been a little intense. I am going to like pretty soon put up our ofrenda, which is for the Day of the Dead. And I think that will be really nice to have here in the house. Just for, I think one, I think it's really good for the kids to be able to connect in that way. And I have to say, I love that your mom supports you in that way.

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda barcenas: There's no way I could tell my heavily Catholic parents or have them be able to understand, ya know?

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, I got lucky in the parent department in many ways of that is one of them. Yeah.

amanda barcenas: Especially my mother, she's just a different ... anyways. But yeah, I'm ready to have, I feel like we should just have an ofrenda, which is just like a little altar that you put pictures of your past loved ones and you put the things that they loved in life, on the table, candles. You're supposed to have food and beverage for them.

And I think that's just something that maybe we should always have up, just as a way to talk with them.

ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda barcenas: Or just have that moment of mindfulness, and just taking a moment to like, have just a time for meditation or thoughtfulness or whatever. So yeah, that needs, we're going to put that up soon.

I'm going to do it soon. I don't know where I should put it though, I have to find a place that I think will be a good spot for it. But yeah, can we talk about the dye pots?

ash alberg: Yes!

amanda barcenas: So there's lots of good things that I forage around here. What do you like to forage or do, or are you using extracts or combinations or ...?

ash alberg: I use a combination. So, yeah especially with the commercial side, like I literally just dye too much for currently the amount of the land that I have access to and also just like the logistics of doing ... yeah, literally just the amount of yarn that I am dyeing. I just, I don't grow enough and I don't get out enough to enough places to be harvesting a sufficient amount in a way that is still respectful for that plant and that, the climate and the area and all of that.

But what I ...
amanda barcenas: It’s also unpredictable in that way.

ash alberg: Exactly, so I am very grateful to have access to, like I purchase my, the dyes that I am not foraging myself or growing myself. Then I purchased from Maiwa and they are ...

amanda barcenas: Love them.

ash alberg: Yeah, they're very transparent about who they work with. I also like, for anybody who wants to natural dye and is listening to this podcast you need to find a supplier who is willing to say, this is out of stock and we don't know when we're going to get it back in, because then at least they are being like good about ... so many of the natural dyes that are popular, especially as far as color goes, and that is, that's a whole other topic as far as like colonialism and the value of color and the way that we value color and all of that.

But a lot of the dyes that we use commercially and colors that are popular commercially are ... come from areas where both the land and the people can be exploited and are exploited on a regular basis and where commercial farming can be a monoculture and it destroys the environment there. And just like all of it has the same potential as any other agricultural business to be a shit show.

And so you want a company like Maiwa or in the States, like Botanical Colors or like places where they are transparent about where they are sourcing from. And then also are willing to say, nope, sorry, this is out of stock, or this is out of season. When we get more, we'll make it available, but it's not available right now.

And where for example, brazilwood, if you're actually purchasing brazilwood right now, that's not okay. Maiwa has, is, supplies satinwood, which is a relative of brazilwood. It grows in India rather than in Brazil. It does not cause ... like it's grown and harvested in an ethical way, but that is because the color that we get from traditional brazilwood at this point is, you cannot get it in a way that is not incredibly detrimental to the environment.

And then, yeah. Cochineal, it's a really sacred plant or ... not plant. I'm just, plants are what we get up here, so like the plants! Not plant. Cochineal is a bug. But it's a sacred dye source. And so if you're going to be using it, then you need to be sourcing from a place that is, you know, being honest about like, where are they getting it from?

Are people, are the people who are harvesting it and propagating it and doing all of that, are they being compensated properly? So like there, there are a lot of considerations that have to go into if you're sourcing your dyes and then if

you're growing or forging them yourself, my thing is if you're able to grow them, ultimately that is the best because then you have full control over it.

But also I live in an urban space and I do not have the greenest of thumbs. So like I, I forage a lot of my dyes. And so then with that, then it's okay, what's the growing season? What do I have access to? I also prefer generally to be foraging for my dye pots from contaminated soil because for a lot of our best dye plants up here, they also overlap with being either really great culinary and/or medicinal plants so I don't want to be harvesting the amount that I need for a good dye result when that's five families’ worth of medicine.

Like it's so if I'm going to forage it, it's yeah, okay, I got it on my walk with Willow in the middle of the city, on the boulevard where the dogs are peeing and all of the car fumes are going. That's not what you want to then be tincturing to be ingesting into your body. Absolutely though, that's the kind of goldenrod that I'm going to pull up from the roots and stick in my dye pot.

So yeah, tansy, I love. It's a little hard to find, but when we can find patches, it makes me super happy. I have yet to be able to grow it myself, which is weird because in theory, it's supposed to be a noxious weed up here. I have some neighbors that have just like giant patches. So I try and catch them during harvest season when they're cutting them down and gather from them.

But yeah, I have yet to get my own seeds to catch properly. Goldenrod. I love. I use carrot tops a lot from the ... yeah, like carrot tops with iron, just to make it more stable, but I'll get that from the farm that I get my CSA from.

amanda barcenas: Yeah.

ash alberg: And onion skins are always a good one. Marigolds, zinnias coreopsis. We actually are able to grow persicaria tinctoria quite easily here, which is really cool.

I got a really good indigo crop this year. My woad was not the strongest, but I'm hoping next year it'll be better. Madder I've got growing and yeah. So it's a lot of fun, but generally what I am doing and what I like, as I envision the way that the business will grow over time, I envision having staff who do the majority of my commercial dyeing, and then I get to spend that time growing the plants that I want to on my land and then dyeing sock yarn, because just the realities of manufacturing all natural sock yarn, I will never get the quantities that I can get from for example, like my root space, like it's just not possible.

So that will always be a little bit more special, or restricted or both. And so then, and also like when you're dying sock yarn, you only need one, maybe two skeins of sock yarn for the most case. So like I can dye, no matter how big my harvest was of my own stuff, I can get a really beautiful dye result rather than worrying about dyeing sweater lots and needing just so much plant material to get a decent dye result.

Yeah. Yeah.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. We have tons of goldenrod that grows here.

ash alberg: Nice.

amanda barcenas: And jewelweed.

ash alberg: Oooo, I haven't used jewelweed.

amanda barcenas: It gives you, you can use the entire plant and it will give you a rusty orange.

ash alberg: Oh, cool!

amanda barcenas: I'll try to get some and put it in the freezer for you.

ash alberg: Yes, please.

amanda barcenas: And then whenever I see you, we can do that back alley deal. And then we have a big yarrow plant that grows here.

I use it in with the goldenrod, but I don't feel like it gives off that much. ash alberg: You need a fair amount of yarrow.

And I actually, I, I have there's yarrow that grows like along the boulevards here. So I've tested it on the minis that I use for Swatching the Tarot, like with my local color study and you get a pretty color, but it also, like I use it so much medicinally that I would never ... unless I was growing like, a gigantic patch, I wouldn't use it for dyeing. I would rather just stick it to my dye pots ... er, in my medicine pots.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. We have a lot of wild carrot ...

ash alberg: Yes.
amanda barcenas: ... here ... ash alberg: Yup.

amanda barcenas: ... that just grows randomly. A lot of black eyed susans that just grow randomly. And then, yeah, everything else. I just, I didn't, I had good intentions of growing a dye garden this year and it just didn't happen.

ash alberg: That's reasonable though. [Chuckles.]
amanda barcenas: I grew a, I grew a nice herb garden that I'm going to use and

try to like extract, like I have a ginormous lemon verbena ... ash alberg: Ooo.

amanda barcenas: ... right now that I want to put the leaves in oil and then be able to scent ... you tell me, do you think I can extract enough scent in the oil to be able to scent like candles or soaps or salves or anything like that?

ash alberg: That's a really great question. I, so I got to do a hydrosol and essential oil distillation workshop earlier this summer. Super cool, Abode Manitoba, they are ... or Horiah ... it's run by a couple in the southern part of the province. She's Filipino and he's a white settler from here and they've started just distilling local essential oils.

It is the coolest thing, but the amount of essential oil that you get depending on the plant is so tiny, but the hydrosol you can get ... so you could make like lotions or something, for sure, from the hydrosol.

amanda barcenas: I don't know how to do that.

ash alberg: You need a copper still, basically it's like making gin, like you do the whole like moonshine level. But you could definitely, lemon verbena is just really nice for tea to begin with, but you could dry the leaves and put it into like salt soaks or dry ...

Like you could definitely, the verbana you could be, you could be extracting it into oil or tincturing it, and be getting the uses of it that way. I don't know that it would necessarily be super scented, but it would certainly have its uses out of it.

amanda barcenas: True. ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda barcenas: I'm just trying to, I don't want to go down that like commercial essential oil ...

ash alberg: Yeah. Route, yeah. With that then, yeah. To distill your own essential oils is like so much, it's so much work. It's super nerdy and fun, but it is like the amount of plant material you need, it's like dye lots, where it's like to extract that amount, you just need so much. It's been really interesting trying to figure out like, is there a way for me to make some very small limited batches of local knitters joint salve, because I've been able to grow all of the plants, but then the essential oils, which I do, like the essential oils are included because they're needed medicinally.

I could either get Abode to do the distilling for me and/or like I could do it myself. But I don't know that it would necessarily be worth putting the essential oils into that.

Like it would, I think it might be one where it's okay, this is like a special batch that doesn't have the essential oils. And so it has similar results because the herbs have still been infused into the oil. It's just that the essential oils have not been added and they do have some medicinal benefit, that's why we've added them, but it might also be better for some folks who are scent sensitive and so now you don't have that extra scent. Yeah.

I don't know. I really like using ... you can make like tinctures. It's interesting. I was doing an aroma therapy course, like a natural aromatherapy course. I've just realized how many weird courses I've done this year. But I was doing a natural aromatherapy course, and they were talking about making perfumes using tinctures.

So like you could take the lemon verbena, tincture it, and then use that as a base to then make a natural perfume. So it would be, it's just, it's a much lighter scent, right? [Muffled sound.] Oh god, my microphone just went sideways.

Yeah, so you could definitely get some scent from it. I just don't know how strong it would be.

amanda barcenas: Which is okay. Sometimes just a light waft is nice.

ash alberg: Yeah. I feel like you'd get enough out of that if you were to tincture it. Just play around with it.

amanda barcenas: I’ll have to ... yeah, try that. That could be nice. ash alberg: Or like a room spray.
amanda barcenas: Ooo!
ash alberg: That could be fun.

amanda barcenas: That's nice. Speaking of scent, did you put for your mice ... ash alberg: Ugh.

amanda barcenas: Did you soak peppermint ... cotton balls in peppermint oil or in peppermint?

ash alberg: No!
amanda barcenas: They hate that scent.

ash alberg: Okay. And then what do I do? Just run this, the cotton ball, like around the edges of my rooms?

amanda barcenas: No, set your cotton ball, like in a dish or something like that and drop some peppermint oil on a cotton ball, and then leave it in your pantry or wherever else they are hanging out. And they hate the scent, so ...

ash alberg: And then eventually they'll escape? Like my fear is that, because I'm definitely like ... as I deep clean one room, they like move to a different room. So then I have to deep clean that room and I'm just like, I'm trying to just like eventually force them out of my house, but I don't know if I'm going to actually force them into a different portion of my house.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. Yeah. Just put peppermint everywhere. [Laughed.] ash alberg: Okay. I'm okay with that, ‘cause the smell of peppermint is

delightful.
amanda barcenas: It is delightful!

ash alberg: All right.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. That's ... see if that, start in your pantry or wherever you're like seeing them most and yeah, that should help. Hopefully. Fingers crossed.

ash alberg: OK. We’ll see. I feel like the whole like Cinderella and the cute little mice, that's not true. It's not a real thing. [Chuckle-snorts.]

amanda barcenas: No, I don't mind mice except when like when you find poop everywhere. And especially in the walls. Ew.

ash alberg: Yes. I'm like, I don't mind mice outside of my house. Just don't be inside of my house. Like ...

amanda barcenas: Yeah. You've got plenty outside, there’s no reason to come inside.

ash alberg: Exactly. Go live in my lawn somewhere. That's fine. I don't know. amanda barcenas: I wonder if they just don't really have any natural predators

at the moment?

ash alberg: Oh, they definitely do. The cats in my neighborhood are next level. It may ... but I think that's why they came into the house and Willow, she just watches them like that. I came downstairs, this was like about a month ago when they first appeared, and I like caught four within the first like three days of putting down traps, and then I haven't caught any since, but they're definitely still in the house.

And this one ... I like came downstairs. One was not in a trap, it literally was just like dead in the middle of the floor. And I think what happened, and Willow was just like sleeping on the couch and I think what happened is it like came out at night and Willow scared it to death, but she didn't do anything to it. It just died. Had a little heart attack.

amanda barcenas: Will Willow take care of them?

ash alberg: I ... she's not doing a job if she's supposed to. Like in theory, I think she'd be capable of it. I remember as a puppy, oh my god, when I first brought her home, the first, the first spring I had her, so she was like, I got her

November and then in the spring so she was probably like 14, 13 months old and things were melting.

And so she, of course, was finding all the dead things. And she ... I saw her mouth just go down to the ground and grab something. And I was like, what? And I like pried her mouth open and pulled out what I thought was a leaf. And as I realized what's happening, I'm pulling a dead mouse that has been like dead on the ground, all winter long, out of her mouth by the tail and flinging it.

And my brain is registering it as I'm flinging this dead mouse across the road. [Laughs.] It's just ... but she is not doing anything with the live ones that are in my house. So I don't know.

amanda barcenas: I felt like the polar pups would be all over that. They just want to kill everything basically.

ash alberg: I, I think the problem is that ... here she comes, she's coming back. You heard us talking about you. [To Willow.]

But I think she like wants them to be her best friends. And she hasn't quite figured out that she acts like ... even when we're at my parents, she'll chase after the rabbits, but it's this half-hearted chase.

She's like ... her legs are so long and she just trots behind them and I'm like, you're not really trying.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. Do I want to be your friend or do I want to eat you? I’m not really sure.

ash alberg: Yeah. I'll just go a little slow in the meantime. amanda barcenas: Oh, there's her little snoot!

ash alberg: Yeah, she's such a goober. She’s like, please pet me since you're talking about me.

amanda barcenas: I love her so much.

ash alberg: Oh my god. You're such ... so over the top. Oh my god, this is very like ...

amanda barcenas: So I felt really horrible that we keep going off on like side tangents.

ash alberg: I think it's fine. So what ... what's something that you wish somebody had told you about ritual or magic or witchcraft when you were younger?

amanda barcenas: Gosh, everything! [Ash laughs.] Seriously. Like, I did not grow up that way or I think I grew up with a lot of tradition, but I feel like tradition sometimes gets covered up or, you don't go deeper into the why do we do this ...

ash alberg: Yes.
amanda barcenas: ... kind of thing? Or what's the meaning behind it? Other

than this is just something we do.

But yeah, no, I would say literally everything because I just did not grow up that way with exploring other things or other ways of looking at the world or... yeah, just even like the magic, just what happens out in nature,

ash alberg: Yeah.
amanda barcenas: I went to Catholic school from kindergarten to my senior

year of high school,
ash alberg: Oh, wow! Holy shit.
amanda barcenas: 13 years in a plaid uniform.
ash alberg: Eww.
amanda barcenas: Yeah.
ash alberg: That's ... well, that's one way to ruin flannel for ya. [Cackle-snorts.] amanda barcenas: We do love flannel though.
ash alberg: ‘Cause it's so cozy.

amanda barcenas: So yeah, I feel like just within the last, maybe couple of years, it's been where I really become interested and wanting to learn more and just being more aware of things ... yeah, spiritually and magically and virtually. So yeah. Like I don't, I feel like I'm just very new at all of this and just trying to soak it all in by .... and by being around people like you, because I feel like that is the best way to be able to ... there's so many, there's so much information.

ash alberg: Yes, totally. And knowing what's like useful information ... or not that I'm saying that I'm like full of useful information, but just like knowing how to distill out from, especially with just how ...

amanda barcenas: And what’s not, and what's not sensationalized at, you know what I'm saying? ‘Cause that’s difficult.

ash alberg: Yeah. There's a lot of woo stuff instead of witch stuff and witch stuff that is actually woo woo.

And then the like, how so many things are like “the natural way.” And it's actually just this was written by somebody who's Wiccan and it's actually just all about Wicca and that's a whole other thing that is, yeah.

amanda barcenas: Which is hard. I think when you're first learning, like where, which path do you go?

ash alberg: Yeah.
amanda barcenas: I need like a mentor, I need a witch mentor. ash alberg: I feel like you got a few of us. [Laughs.]
amanda barcenas: Just putting it out there.
ash alberg: If there's any stregas listening to this podcast ... amanda barcenas: Right? Please help me.

But yeah, no, I did not grow up that way. I don't come from a family that is into that kind of stuff, because they're so deeply rooted in the church. Which is fine for them.

I, yeah ... I think you just have to find whatever works for you. I think you can be both. I think you can be religious and spiritual and be witchy. Also, I don't feel like you have to be put into a box of one or the other, and you don't feel like you should feel guilt or shame or any of that either. I think it's okay to explore all the options or ideas and ways of thinking and not feel bad about it or feel that you're betraying one thing by doing another.

ash alberg: Yes. I feel like that's a really important point. Especially because a lot of the conversations I've been having have been with folks who, because ... like lots of post-religion trauma in the witchcraft world. And I think that because of that and because of the yeah, definitely the shame and the guilt, which like Christianity is really good at.

And also Judaism. And like a lot of them are really good at just like instilling the sense of guilt in us and to be like deprogramming that and like unpacking it and unpicking it and figuring out, okay, what does the next version look like of whatever your spiritual life looks like? Then there is this feeling of, I can't go back to that or I'm not allowed to have both.

And I think it is important for folks to know that if you want both, then there are ways of having the two together. And I think, maybe one of the examples of how the institutions of the religions have been able to do that is by looking at the traditional stories and folklore of around the world and seeing that it can be a really Catholic country and also here's these folklore fairytales that we tell our kids at bedtime that we actually also believe quite strongly.

Like you just have to look at Ireland and Iceland are both very Christian countries and also they will reroute highways around fairy hills. And like the, in both like in the Philippines and also in like across Slavic countries, like they're again, very heavy Christian especially Catholic influence, and also here are the stories that we tell our kids at to scare them or to tell them like, don't go kicking the toadstools because the duende are gonna, they're going to get mad or don't, don't go out at night because the vampires are going to get you or the ... like they're, we have all these stories that we use and yeah.

We tell ourselves as adults at their stores, but we also believe them, and there's a reason for that.

amanda barcenas: I don't know ... yeah. I don't know how ... I don't think stories would have come about if there was not some sort of true and real life event to bring them about,

ash alberg: Yeah. Agreed.

amanda barcenas: Because I think that's how stories are made anyways. There's always some, if not all truth to it, I don't think we totally make those up out of our imagination.

We pulled them from our experiences. ash alberg: Yup.
amanda barcenas: Yeah.

I think that ... I don't know what I was going to say. But no, I think that you can pull from, if you're somebody who's struggling with like privileges and how this fits into your world, I think that you can pull from both and have that kind of put them in both kind of aspects of your life. Totally. And it's also, I think, just learning more and being more educated and then being able to make those decisions.

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda barcenas: Without like poo-pooing something right away because it's uncomfortable to you, it's different for you or something you didn't learn or grow up with. Yeah.

ash alberg: Yeah. That feels really important too, yeah. Engage those critical thinking skills and decide for yourself. What feels true? What do you agree with, what do you not? Take what you, take what you need and leave the rest. That's the way that we can approach everything really.

amanda barcenas: Great. Ooh, that's good. Take what you need. That's almost like, if you don't like something on social media, you don't have to comment on everything. You can just keep scrolling.

ash alberg: Oh, my god. Yes. [Cackles.] Hit that unfollow button if you need to, or hit the mute, like nobody needs to know that you're unfollowing. Like you don't also need to, if you don't like a thing, just continue. It's really, it's not about your life. Somebody else's life.

amanda barcenas: The love/hate relationship.

ash alberg: That's true. But it does bring us fun things like this friendship. [Giggles.]

amanda barcenas: Totally! Honestly, I don't know. I would have never met you most likely, but not for social media. I see you're over in the Western part of Canada.

ash alberg: Yeah. And I also I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have gone to Rhinebeck or if I did, it wouldn't have been with Anna. And so I wouldn't have just like generally, like Anna and I connected because of social media as well.

amanda barcenas: That was the first time that I had met Anna also.

ash alberg: Oh, that's wild!

amanda barcenas: Yeah.

ash alberg: Oh my god. I love this. It's such a small world.

amanda barcenas: I think it was. Maybe I had met her once before, like quickly, but I think that was the first time that I had met her in person.

ash alberg: Huh.
amanda barcenas: Yeah. That was ...
ash alberg: Oh, that’s so funny.
amanda barcenas: A lot of good peeps that day.

ash alberg: Yeah, it was a good, it was a good trip for meeting people and like finally being able to like connect with humans that we've been building relationships for a long time online.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. Totally. It worked out because yeah, you just, you never know. [Both giggle.]

ash alberg: So true. Okay. So what's next for you? This episode, I think is coming out sometime in November, maybe early December, but I think November.

amanda barcenas: Cool. All right, so we're doing Rhinebeck in a couple of weeks. If it doesn't kill me first.

ash alberg: I was going to say, how are you feeling about ... ‘cause also Rhinebeck during COVID is like scary. I remember those crowds. [Laughs.]

amanda barcenas: Yeah.
ash alberg: And those knitters.

amanda barcenas: I'm feeling ... I'm feeling conflicted in a way. Of course, I would hope people will mask, no matter what.

ash alberg: Are they not mandating it?
amanda barcenas: I mean, they said ... as far as the latest that I had seen on

their website, they said if you're vaccinated, like then ...

ash alberg: There's lots of breakthrough infections. [Laughs.]

amanda barcenas: Like they encourage it. But if you're not vaccinated, then it is mandatory. But I don't believe ... they're not asking for vaccination cards. So ...

ash alberg: Yeah, you can just put out one rule and that way it's easy to enforce and you don't have to think about it.

amanda barcenas: Well, there's that.
ash alberg: There's also like the ... I'm sorry, but the average age of attendees

at Rhinebeck is one where you should be concerned about infection. Like ...

amanda barcenas: There's that. So I will be masked. And I am vaccinated. I don't know. I'm conflicted in that, great that we're being ... that we're able to do this. Hopefully, I think it will be fine. They have done a good job about really spacing out vendors and everything like that. And then anybody who does not feel comfortable at being a vendor is able to do it virtually and not lose their ...

ash alberg: Oh, nice. That’s good.
amanda barcenas: ... spot for the next year. So that's good.

I don't know. It's hard to say like what the ... in one hand you want there to be a lot of people, because this is our business and we got to make some money.

ash alberg: Yes. And Rhinebeck is ... like for folks who don't know, Rhinebeck is a massive, like fucking massive wool show. And literally, you can make your final quarter of the year's sales just on that weekend, like ...

amanda barcenas: Right. A lot of people, I shouldn't say a lot, but there's still a fair handful of people who like only do Rhinebeck and that's like their big moneymaker of the year, whatever their business model is. Or a lot of people rely on Rhinebeck as being yeah, one of their big money makers for the year.

So on one hand, yeah, I hope that there's a lot of people. On the other hand, I hope there's not a lot of people, but that's also scary too. If there's not a lot of people, then it's just this is a lot of work, therefore a lot of upfront costs like the mill.

ash alberg: Yeah. To have the amount of stock that you need. This is also the thing that people don't necessarily understand, especially with agricultural products, like the expense that you need to put out in order to have the amount of stock on hand to then not run out too early. Yeah, you want to sell out, you don't want to sell out on the first day.

And so to have enough stock on hand to carry you through the weekend and then like also ... yeah, it's a really tricky balancing act. And then like booth fees, travel fees. You guys have to close up the shop to then, like it's not a simple thing.

amanda barcenas: And the other thing too about agricultural products is that this is all our inventory until the next shearing date. Not so much for us because we have the shop ...

ash alberg: Yes.
amanda barcenas: ... but for people who only have their farms to rely on as

their like product inventory, this is all they have until next time that they shear.

And then there's months’ wait at the mill. So yeah, it's, there's a lot riding on this one because there's just so many unknowns.

ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda barcenas: Yeah, that make it a little a little nerve wracking. And then, yeah, always, it's always like a mad dash up to the last second getting ready for it.

And I'm going to be ... I’m just going to have a lot of drinks by the time we get there.

ash alberg: [Laughs.] Yep. Then you just run on adrenaline for the weekend, adrenaline and caffeine, and like a drink at night to then make you pass out, then start all over again.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. It's just, it's a lot. And then then we're still like in the middle and then right after that is like the holiday season. And so, it's just not ever like ending for awhile.

ash alberg: Yeeahh. January, maybe you'll get a break, but then it's then it's time to do your taxes and like prep for all of that and ...

amanda barcenas: Yeah.
ash alberg: All that fun shit.
amanda barcenas: The joys of being self-employed.

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah. I was just ... like when do you find time? Nevermind like self care time ‘cause that's a whole other thing, but like when do you actually just have time to do shit, do your quarterly planning?

Like literally I have just kept on moving my quarterly planning. It's moved about three weeks so far. It's going to move at least another three.

amanda barcenas: What's quarterly planning? [Joking.]

ash alberg: Right?! Last time, like quarterly planning is like, how do I pull together all of these numbers to begin with and then have time to sit and make? This also makes me feel a little better though, because whenever I talk to other small businesses, I'm like, okay, thank god, none of us is doing it.

And we're all surviving so far. So I guess we're doing something ... amanda barcenas: We’re all flying by the seat of our pants.

ash alberg: Fuck. Yeah.

amanda barcenas: It's ... yeah. It's just pulling things out of our back pockets at this time. There's no time for planning. As much as I would love to plan, I will say this, I'm really good at procrastinating and then pulling it off at the end.

ash alberg: Me too. But the level of stress is not ... [Both talking at the same time.]
amanda barcenas: It's a horrible way to live!

ash alberg: Oh god. I'm like, I'm trying at this point to like preschedule as much of my shit. And I think it's actually just that I've added in so many things to my list of shit to do that like I literally cannot afford to procrastinate on everything because every time a deadline comes up, I end up having procrastinated on it because there were so many other things I was dealing with in between.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. Yeah. And then I don't know about you, but I'm like, I know I'm really good at the very last second. It's going to be no big deal ‘cause I know I will pull it off somehow.

ash alberg: And nobody else needs to know like the level at which ... like nobody else is going to know how much you potentially compromised of your like first dream of what the thing would look like, because it's still to them, looks so good. And you're like, you don't know that I dropped three things off of this to-do list in order to get this to this place.

So I don't necessarily feel solid about it, but I know that I can pull it off at the last second if I need to. And it'll, you won't know that I pulled it off at the last second. It'll look like I have my shit together.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. And it's also like too, I fooled myself into thinking, if you really try to do this too early and get it done, you're going to not do as good of work.

ash alberg: Yes. Or something’ll go, something will change last minute. And so you'll have done all that work for nothing. It's ... I don't think that's technically how other people work, but ...

amanda barcenas: Or this is my biggest thing. And I think a lot of this, I don't know about you, but I feel like ... I'm sorry to anybody else who doesn't want to hear this, but I feel like I'm starting to get into the stages of like pre-menopause and for like pre-pre-menopause, if that is a thing. But I also feel like my brain is is just in a fog sometimes.

ash alberg: Ooh yeah.

amanda barcenas: And I'm also like, if I try to do something too early, I am going to one, either forget about it, or not feel like it's like at the top of my brain. It gets buried somewhere.

ash alberg: Yup. Yup.
amanda barcenas: I'm going to forget details about it or something like that. I

need to do everything almost like last second so it's fresh in my head. ash alberg: Yes. Yeah, exactly. It makes things ...
amanda barcenas: It could go away at any moment.

ash alberg: Completely. It's, you need to build in enough of a timeline that like those breaks in the brain fog, you can you can take the advantage of those, but then also, ‘cause you don't want to risk that brain fog kicks in like on the day, but you also are like, if I plan this too far out in advance, then the chunks of brain fog, like trying to chop away at it, like I'll have chopped too many weird holes in the wrong spots and it won't actually come together.

amanda barcenas: I need to be better about making like a list and keeping that list with me all the time, but I'm not great at that. So yeah. Anyways, Rhinebeck is coming up. Fingers crossed it's somewhat successful at the very least. And then it's our two-year anniversary of the shop being open.

ash alberg: Yay!
amanda barcenas: Which is great. I'm super happy that we have survived

because we opened the shop the fall right before the pandemic started.
ash alberg: That is terrifying.
amanda barcenas: It sucks because we haven't had a normal sales year yet.

ash alberg: Oh my god, which then just makes it so hard to like plan. We've just discussed how planning is hard anyway, but like how the hell do you like anticipate what you're going to need at what point?

amanda barcenas: Right! And it makes it hard for, do I need this kind of squirrel this money away? Or should I go ahead and spend this on inventory and other things? And, but if there aren't a lot of people coming into the shop, thankfully, like people can buy things online et cetera, et cetera. And that has saved us too, being able to have online business as well as like in person business.

But yeah, so our two year anniversary is at the end of October, and I think I'm going to try and plan for something like kind of mid November-ish.

ash alberg: Cool.
amanda barcenas: And then, yeah, I think that's basically it, that’s coming up,

like immediate kind of things.

ash alberg: Yeah. And it's also just like it's Christmas season, basically. Like September through December, I just try and warn people. Don't expect me to show up for anything between the last, like the last, I don't even think of it as quarters, I'm like the last third of the year is basically ... there's like late winter into spring season, which is re-looking at what the hell happened last year. And, but also, still being very busy somehow.

And then there's summer and summer is busy with a different kind of work. And then the cool weather hits and we go into knitting, crazy, yarn, just staying on top of stock and sales and all of that for the last chunk of the year.

What are you doing, my love? [To Willow.] She’s circling beside me.

Yeah, it's just ... the world's biggest sigh. She's not subtle ever. [Sighs heavily.] Literally that. [Both laugh, Ash snorts.] I love that your Willow has just stayed snoozing the whole time.

She literally has not moved. Her ear perked up because she heard her name. That's it. [Laughs.]

amanda barcenas: She just went back to sleep.
ash alberg: Yeah. What a cute ... oh, there we go. Hi, munchkin.

amanda barcenas: Hi Will! Good girl. ash alberg: She's such a polar bear.

amanda barcenas: Totally. Good girl. Yeah. [Sound of collar clanking in the background.] It's ... nothing is a quarter anymore. It's just like seasons, holiday season, after-holiday season.

ash alberg: Yeah, literally cause like summer is just, it's so funny ‘cause I'm furiously trying to prep stock for the October shop update, which is in a couple of weeks from now, from when we're recording this and or like a week and a half. Fuck. [Laughs.]

And it's like just thinking about, okay, next year we should be able to do things in person again, maybe. And so Twist is the other really big yarn festival.

amanda barcenas: Yes! We go to Twist too!

ash alberg: Oh my god! I'm going to see you then. Thank fuck. So I'm like, yeah. Twist has been on hold for the last two years. Hopefully 2022 we're able to do it, but it's like that's mid-August, which actually means that you're kicking off your big season earlier, which basically means like the whole early part of summer you're prepping stock to then carry you through basically the last half of the year, because good luck staying on top of re-prepping stock in between like it's ... yeah. It's just chaos.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. And for us too, like Twist is a little tricky also because usually we like shear like April/May, then I have to like skirt all the fleeces and figure out what's being made into what, to try to get that done. But when you have a hundred sheep, it's a lot.

ash alberg: Yup.

amanda barcenas: Skirting is like one of those things that I just loathe.

ash alberg: That's what you hire somebody else to do at some point. It's like what I, whenever I'm rinsing yarn, I'm like, somebody else needs to be doing this. I have other shit to do.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. Yeah, so usually yeah, I try to get our wool down to the mill as soon as possible. Or sometimes ...

ash alberg: Yeah. Just to have it on.

amanda barcenas: It's whatever we have left from ...

ash alberg: The year before.

amanda barcenas: ... clipping, and if they can get at least some done, half of it done, then I bring it. Yeah. But you're right. It, Twist does start off ...

ash alberg: The season.
amanda barcenas: ... the major knitting kind of season.

ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah. And it's a big festival. So it's you're not just bringing mah, a little bit. Like you need ...

amanda barcenas: I love that show so much.
ash alberg: I'm so excited. I need to get my French back up and running

though.

amanda barcenas: Oh man. I don't know French at all.

ash alberg: How did you do with that then? ‘Cause it's a very ...

amanda barcenas: A lot of people spoke English.

ash alberg: They don't necessarily want to.

amanda barcenas: No, they didn't love it. [Ash snorts.] But I was like, I'm not from Canada, so ...

ash alberg: I think this is the thing, you'll be able to get away with it. Because I'm from Manitoba, we have the largest Franco community outside of Quebec. So they're ... And I do speak French, it's just rusty. So they're gonna get mad if I don't speak ... like those, my brain, I can already tell there's gonna be points where, ‘cause whenever I'm speaking a lot of one language and somebody switches back to the other language, my brain literally gets stuck in between and I can't communicate in either.

So I'm just anticipating that moment.

amanda barcenas: I call that a language meltdown, ‘cause I've done that with Spanish before.

ash alberg: Yeah.
amanda barcenas: And you just like short circuit.

ash alberg: Yes, totally. I like, I'm just going to translate all of my written materials so that if somebody asks me a question, I might just, I'm just going to ... hold this. Take this.

amanda barcenas: There were a couple of times where a customer might have come into our booth and like they did not speak English at all. And I was just like, “Eek!” I just found another vendor who graciously translated for me. And we, I did have a customer come in, who she was originally from like Colombia?

ash alberg: Okay. Yes. Oh, she would have been so happy with the Spanish then. [Laughs.]

amanda barcenas: We could speak Spanish together. ash alberg: I love that.

amanda barcenas: So that was so great. But yeah, generally it hasn't been a problem because ...

ash alberg: That’s good. It’s always, yeah, it's always the tricky bit.
amanda barcenas: It’s nice though, because I don't think there are very many

other American vendors there.
ash alberg: Yeah.
amanda barcenas: So I can use that excuse a lot.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. I don't think I'm going to be able to use that. Especially once they hear me speak some French, they're going to be like no, this is not acceptable.

amanda barcenas: Your French is horrible!

ash alberg: I ... it's a very, I still have this like very vivid memory of my TA during my French immersion class in university handing me one of my papers back and just looking at me and saying, “Beaucoup le anglaises.” I was like, I know, I'm sorry!

There’s too many anglicisms through the whole thing. You knew what I was saying. [Both laughing.]

amanda barcenas: Sorryy! ash alberg: Yep.

amanda barcenas: You got it though. Yeah, I loved Twist. I totally forgot about that.

ash alberg: I'm so excited.
amanda barcenas: Hopefully it happens. Please, please. ash alberg: I know. Fingers crossed. And toes.

amanda barcenas: Because it is I, if any, anybody has never been to a Twist that is listening to this and if you're able to go, it's such a, it's just such a joy to be there. I love the entire setting. I love all the people that are there.

I love Amelie. She is so wonderful. And the only kind of downfall is that it's out in the middle of nowhere.

ash alberg: Yes, it is.
amanda barcenas: So there's not ...
ash alberg: Accommodations are a little tricky.

amanda barcenas: You gotta, I think we stay 30 minutes away because there's not much out there, but that's fine. It's a beautiful drive. But yeah, I will say every single vendor that is there is flipping fabulous. It's such a well-curated show.

ash alberg: Yeah. And just, yeah, everybody's super sweet and lovely and kind and just ...

amanda barcenas: It’s so Canadian! I love it. It's so Canadian. It makes me so happy. It's like a breath of flippin’ fresh air.

ash alberg: Yeah, it's true.

amanda barcenas: Thank you, Canadians, for being uber-Canadian. It's great. Great. But you're right. Everybody is so nice and so helpful. And it's a super easy show to do logistically for vendors. And I don't know like how you couldn't have a good time there.

And there's something for everyone.

ash alberg: Yeah. Which is also the really cool thing. It's, I think that's the nice thing with the, the bigger festivals is that they're really able to ... And it is nice that it works being as far out of town as it is, because you do have space to spread out and be able to include different things so that anybody who's coming out is going to find something to do and something interesting that they're going to enjoy.

amanda barcenas: Yeah. I know there's sheep there. They usually have sheep there and maybe some Angora goats or something like that.

ash alberg: So cute.

amanda barcenas: Great food. And yeah, it's not just yarn vendors. There are felting vendors, there's notions vendors. There's all kinds of great people there. So even if you're not any of those kinds of crafty kind of things, it's just a really nice show to go to.

ash alberg: Mhmm. Yeah.
amanda barcenas: Yay. I’m glad you’ll be there!

ash alberg: It’s going to be good. Oh god. Kay, so we're like, well over time, but it's fine. People already know this. [Giggles.]

amanda barcenas: Sorry.

ash alberg: I love all our tangents. So we'll make sure that all of the links are in the show notes and people know where to find you and that they can buy things

from you online, or actually come into the shop in person if they happen to be nearby and are vaxxed.

And then yeah, if you're not vaxxed, then that's the magic of online shopping. You don't have to come into a space. There we go. [Chuckles.]

amanda barcenas: That's a nice way to say it.
ash alberg: Yeah. [Both laugh.] It’s a nicer way of saying it that I usually am in

reality, but hey, this is the curated version of me. [Snorts.] amanda barcenas: This is diplomatic Ash.
ash alberg: Give me five minutes. I'll be less diplomatic. Thanks, my love. This has been delightful.

amanda barcenas: You're welcome. Thank you so much! I'm so glad we got to chat.

ash alberg: Me too.

[Upbeat music plays.] You can find full episode recordings and transcripts at snortandcackle.com. Just click on podcast in the main menu. Follow Snort and Cackle on Instagram @snortandcackle and join our seasonal book club with @SnortandCackleBookClub. Don't forget to subscribe and review the podcast by your favorite podcasting platform.

Editing provided by Noah Gilroy, recording and mixing by Ash Alberg, music by Yesable.