season 2, episode 6 - smoke & bones with amanda crooke

our guest for episode 6 is amanda crooke (né midkiff)! amanda is the herbalist and plant witch of locust light farm in new jersey. she offers classes both on the farm and online for all levels of experience, and leads rituals and guided experiences for the seasonal holidays. she loves herbal beverages, adores toads, and heartily believes in gnomes. she delights in helping folks connect to the magic and medicine of the plant world. you can find her online at locustlightfarm.com and on instagram @locustlightfarm.

each season we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #snortandcacklebookclub, with a book review by ash and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. this season's #snortandcacklebookclub read is "orishas, goddesses, and voodoo queens" by lilith dorsey.

take the fibre witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz. follow us on instagram @snortandcackle and be sure to subscribe via your favourite podcasting app so you don't miss an episode!

transcription for this episode was provided by the fiery well.

seasons 1-3 of snort & cackle are generously supported by the manitoba arts council.

transcript

snort & cackle - season 2, episode 6 - amanda crooke

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] Hello, and welcome to the Snort and Cackle podcast. I'm your host, Ash Alberg. I'm a queer fibre witch and hedgewitch. And each week I interview a fellow boss witch to discuss how everyday magic helps them make their life and the wider world, a better place.

Expect serious discussions about intersections of privilege and oppression, big C versus small C capitalism, rituals, sustainability, astrology, ancestral work, and a whole lot of snorts and cackles. Each season, we read a new book about witchcraft practices around the world with the #SnortAndCackleBookClub with a book review by me and the occasional guest helping us close out the season. Our book this season is Orishas, Goddesses, and Voodoo Queens by Lilith Dorsey.

Whether you're an aspiring boss witch looking to start your knitwear design business, a plant witch looking to play more with your local naturally dyed color palette or a knit witch wondering just what the hell is a natural yarn and how do you use it in your favorite patterns, we've got the solution for you.

Take the free fiber witch quiz at ashalberg.com/quiz and find out which self-paced online program will help you take your dreams into reality. Visit ashalberg.com/quiz [upbeat music fades out] and then join fellow fiber witches in the Creative Coven Community at ashalberg.com/creative-coven-community for 24/7 access to Ash’s favorite resources, monthly zoom knit nights, and more. [End of intro.]

So, I am here with Amanda Midkiff. Amanda is the herbalist and plant witch of Locust Light farm in New Jersey. She offers classes both on the farm and online for all levels of experience, and leads rituals and guided experiences for the seasonal holidays. She loves herbal beverages, adores toads and heartily believes in gnomes. She delights in helping folks connect to the magic and medicine of the plant world.

Hi Amanda!
amanda midkiff: Hi Ash. Thank you for having me.

ash alberg: Thanks for being here. I love your bio, it’s so cute. And so you. amanda midkiff: It's, I love toads and gnomes so much. [Ash chuckles.] It's a

big deal in my life.

ash alberg: I love it. So tell us a bit about you and what you do in the world.

amanda midkiff: As you read, I'm an herbalist and plant witch. I spent a lot of time outside. So I have an herbal teaching garden. I live in the Delaware River Valley, in Lenape territory. I grew up actually in the mountains, in the Delaware gap, which is mountains that the river flows through, and now I live in the valley.

ash alberg: Okay.

amanda midkiff: And so I spend a lot of time thinking about the differences between mountain people and valley people, which are vast. So I live in this like very artistic area that has, even before Europeans came here, it was like a gathering space for people from all over, a place where a lot of trade happened and now there's this like flourishing arts community.

And it's interesting because it's equidistant between Philly and New York, and so it can feel suburban ... I think to some people live suburban lifestyle here, but it's also possible to live a rural lifestyle here.

ash alberg: Nice.

amanda midkiff: Which I definitely do.

Yeah. So right now, so currently my business is on the Jersey side of the river, I have this herbal teaching garden. It's about quarter acre garden and things are in flux cause we're coming out of the pandemic. But in the past, pre-2020, I had a full schedule of classes in the garden. And then I started teaching online classes, which, great of 2019 Amanda to decide to set that up.

ash alberg: Yes, no kidding.

amanda midkiff: And then, so last year, of course I ... the only programs I had on the farm were these year long programs people had already signed up for that

we were able to keep doing outside, which was amazing. It was like a lifeline for all of us.

And then I was able to focus more on my online programming. And now I'm navigating starting classes again on the farm. Not because I'm ... it's funny because it's not even like a COVID situation ‘cause we can do everything outside. It's more of a my own energy situation.

Like I, I can be very extroverted. I take a lot of retreat time for myself, but I love teaching and gathering and speaking. And so I had been teaching multiple classes a week and it's like putting on a whole show each time.

ash alberg: Yes.
amanda midkiff: And I realized in 2020, actually that was exhausting. [Ash

laughs.] It was taking a lot for me to get started with that again.

And my partner and I are planning a wedding except he's a vegetable farmer, so it's me planning the wedding right now.

ash alberg: Yes, it is. [Laughs.]

amanda midkiff: Yeah. So I'm just realizing that I'm easing into that even more slowly than I planned, just because of my energy, which is fine because it's my business. I'm able to do that.

ash alberg: Yes. It's the nice thing, but it can also be frustrating, especially when you had a different baseline. And then, COVID created the weirdest little, like bundle of time that is honestly like, you could take the whole COVID chunk, which honestly is still ongoing, but put it over beside the rest of the timeline and it could exist very easily on its own.

And it's but it's still, it happened, it's happening, and it has drastically shifted just the communal baseline. And then individually it's, okay I'm able to teach outside again easily so ... or like relatively easily, but I don't actually want to teach that many classes a week or ... like I used to teach occasionally I would do, if I was like traveling somewhere to teach, it's okay, I'm here for a weekend. We're just going to put in as many classes as possible.

And so you're teaching multiple classes a day and now I'm like, no fucking way. I wouldn't do that. You need to give me a solid, ideally 24 hours in between. But

if you can't give me 24 hours, like at least 18, right? Like just that recharge time is so much greater, it feels.

amanda midkiff: Mhmm. Yeah. And for me, I realized ... so my space, so I, there's an indoor space available that I share with a farm to table cooking school, which is great.

ash alberg: Cool.

amanda midkiff: But it's not my space, so I can only use that space on Sundays. And then I have this beautiful glamping tent that I can also use, but because neither space is a permanent space for my items ...

ash alberg: Yep.

amanda midkiff: ... like a really big setup and cleanup each time. And in 2019, I was able to have more like long-term work trade helpers who had helped me set up and clean up. But they would be around more often so their help was more helpful.

ash alberg: Yes. Oh my god. Yeah. There's that. Yeah. And now you're spending all your time like micromanaging somebody, that's not actually helpful.

amanda midkiff: Yeah. And so now I'm realizing like either without having that, because enrollment's really low in classes or just having new people coming in, I'm kinda tired of doing all this like production.

ash alberg: Yes. A hundred percent. Oh yeah. So then you also have the online stuff that you're teaching as well.

And I, so I really want to get into your latest little like brainstorm, because it is so you and I love it so much. And we've had this conversation outside of this podcast of course about like, you're very, you're teaching online, of course. And it was, I am also glad for 2019 that you figured shit out before things hit the fan.

Like things are very, you're in the soil. You're like in real life and digital world is is, it's its own real life. But like the physical world is very much where so much of your energy exists and the way that you are also run your business is a lot more physical and tangible than a lot of us who are operating in online

spaces where we're like, okay, what's the like, easiest way of like making these things, just like popping them out into the world.

And like, when we're thinking about how are we communicating with people, we're only thinking about digital versions and digital options. And then you're like, I want a billboard.

amanda midkiff: Yeah.
ash alberg: And it's what? And then you think about it. It's no, that does make

sense for Amanda [Laughs.] Like it does.

And I feel like it would also still make sense even if you didn't have the physical farm or the garden space to be teaching. Obviously having a physical location that you can be directing people to makes having like paper or like real-world advertisements a little bit more applicable as well and potential for targeting, but yeah, the, your latest little glimmer that has apparently just arrived with people today is so wonderful.

And so I would love for you to chat a little bit about that and then we'll get into the rest of the conversation.

amanda midkiff: Yeah. I would love to talk about this cause I'm, I've had more layers of realization. I just had one yesterday that I haven't really chatted through with anyone yet. So I'd love to talk about it.

So to fill folks in, I'm a bit of a ... is the word Luddite? ash alberg: Yes. [Laughs.]

amanda midkiff: like I'm not someone who’s ... like I’m a bit of a Luddite. [Ash laughs.]

And I don't ... like I don't even like to have screens around me visible. I hide wires as much as I can, like I try ... I do my best to limit my use of technology. Of course, I have a small business. I started Locust Light in 2015, so of course I started an Instagram account and a Facebook. I have an email list, all that.

And, but I never wanted to do it. And I just, like I'm typically a lurker in any sort of online situation. [Ash snort-laughs.] So if I didn't have a business, I

wouldn't be doing this. It's not a natural expression of who I am to have an Instagram account. It was like, it's the opposite of that.

And it never came naturally to me. And it was always a source of stress. And then just as time went on, it became more and more stressful. I almost .... and Instagram really was more stressful because Facebook, I was able to, like, it was like less addictive to me. Like I was able to not use it. Whereas Instagram, like I never had found a way of only using it for business without getting sucked in.

Because the thing with Instagram that was stressful for me is even if I was only say, I had my content planned and I was just going to post it and maybe somehow if I had found self control to not scroll, which in theory could have been possible, but never materialized. The thing that strikes me about Instagram was like, it's not just a place for you to put your stuff.

So I wanted, I would have seen it as, this is a place where I'm going to deposit content. Almost other people see it as like something ...

ash alberg: Like Walmart or something.

amanda midkiff: Yyeaahh. But other people see it as like, this is your platform that you need to be involved in. And so you need to be using it to speak and create these little public service announcements about everything.

And that is so stressful to me. And the time, the point that it really ... the point that it really I don't know, made me the most pissed off in my head was when Ruth Bader Ginsburg died.

ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda midkiff: And she was Jewish and she died on a Jewish holiday. Yes. And I remember I wasn't going to open my phone that night, but then like John went upstairs, so I did.

And that's how ... and I saw she died maybe within minutes of it being announced. And then, so of course everyone's posting that they're sad about it. I just had this thought of if you are also Jewish in theory, you would be potentially spending this holiday with your family and maybe not on your phone ‘cause it's like holiday.

And yet we are all somehow accountable for expressing the fact that we're upset that she died, and if you don't do it's as if you didn't care.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. And that also that it is immediate. Like as soon as you find out, you're not supposed to process it at all, you're not supposed to like ... you're like supposed to come up with ... and every single fucking time something happens, I feel like it's the same thing, whether it's good or bad or tragic or joyful, it's, don't take the time to experience the feelings in your body and to go through the thoughts in your head that are going to be complex and nuanced and have layers.

Like you need to just post your immediate raw reaction, but also make it a combination of like palatable and yet also like ...

amanda midkiff: Radical enough.

ash alberg: Oh yeah. Radical enough. Just right at that line of what's acceptable, but also is like pushing the envelope a little bit, be articulate, but like also be really raw. And it's like, what the fuck?

amanda midkiff: Or you have to find a square that someone has already posted ...

ash alberg: Yyyess.
amanda midkiff: ... that says your feelings, but not just, “this says the right

feelings,” that is posted by a person who is beyond reproach. ash alberg: Yes! Yes.
amanda midkiff: You need to know that ...
ash alberg: Which is impossible these days.

amanda midkiff: Yes! It's crazy. And I remember there was a time when AOC had given a speech about the harassment that she faced and I saw the speech and I couldn't find ... like she hadn't shared it from her account, like I found it from someone else's account. So I wanted to share it.

And then the account that I could share it was from someone who was not beyond reproach, but who would share this thing. But I was like, oh my god,

like everyone needs to see the speech so I’ll share the speech. And then people texting me ... or not texting me, messaging me, about the person whose account I shared it from and how I really should have ...

And I'm like,

ash alberg: Fuck’s sake.

amanda midkiff: Oh, this is too ... it's just too much. And so I just ... and yeah, it's just a lot. And I thought about ... I also thought about, at that time when RBG had died, when ... so when the Oklahoma city bombing happened, which killed a lot of preschoolers.

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda midkiff: I was ... my mother always tells me that was the first day I learned how to walk, which means that my mom was someone who had two toddlers at the time when a bunch of preschoolers were killed.

And now we live in a country where children are killed all the time. Doesn't really seem to matter ... but I'm sure at that point it was a bigger deal.

ash alberg: Yeah.
amanda midkiff: And so that was like, really, it's not it wasn't a direct trauma

for my mom, but it really shook her, of course. ash alberg: Yes.

amanda midkiff: And I just think okay 30 ... probably would have been three-year-old Cassandra. She probably ... that thing happened. It was upset. She felt it, she probably cried. And then she talked with her friends about it and she processed it. And it wasn't like she had to turn around and create a public statement.

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda midkiff: And we all are pressured to create these public statements.

ash alberg: And it's ... yes. And we're also not paid activists. And even if you are a paid activist, like there is still, I almost feel like paid activists are actually

better a lot of the time at recognizing where their boundaries are and what they will speak to and what they won't and placing those boundaries up or recognizing, okay, this is the point to which I will engage in and beyond that I refuse to engage because the conversation is no longer useful, or I am not useful at this particular point in time, so I'm going to remove myself from the conversation.

I feel like those of us who have been in grassroots activism and grassroots organizing for a long period of time, and I'm talking like more than a decade, you’ve learned that. But nowadays it feels like a lot of people are suddenly getting various awakenings to different things around the world all the time. And also it's 24/7 access to all of the trauma all of the time. And if you don't put those boundaries on the way that you are engaging, you're going to get burnt out immediately.

And, but there's like this sense of responsibility that each of us individually is supposed to fix all of the ills in the world. And supposed to be aware of all of the ills in the world. And I've actually found through COVID forcing me to create clearer and clearer boundaries for myself, which ironically is also the same fucking lessons I learned in my like later, early twenties compared to my early twenties, at that like you can't fix everything.

It is truly impossible. And the more that you are paying attention to these, especially the loudest voices that are shouting about the things that are like really not within your control, the less you can be useful within your immediate community. And that doesn't mean that you like don't pay attention.

I also find it really interesting, like the level of narcissism that can come in with social media, where people are like, this is a thing that is directly impacting the people that I care about. And everybody needs to know about this exact same thing and have just as much knowledge about this thing that is happening.

And it's, this is ... why would we know this information? Like I find it regularly, especially actually as a Canadian, who, of course we get a lot of American content and we are close enough that we get like a shit ton of it. And we also, we're still in Canada, we still have, our own nuances. We have plenty of our own problems.

But even just the difference in the way that the news cycle happens. I remember, I can't remember. It was like few months ago. Oh, it might've actually been the

insurrection. And I was like trying to get updates because I was like, oh, what the fuck's happening?

And I went to CBC, which is like the mainstream main Canadian broadcaster and they generally, when there is a crisis, you'll get updates from them, if it's like a big crisis, you'll get updates maybe every hour or so. But then as things go on, then you'll start to see the last update was three hours ago. The last update was six hours ago, and it slowly expands.

And then I made the mistake of being like, CBC hasn't posted anything for the last 45 minutes and may ... like, it was very active at that point. So it's, okay, I want to see what's happening. And so I went over to MSNBC, which is like my equivalent in American news and the ticker tape and the minute by minute up thing, I was like, oh, there is no in-between! I see, this is why everybody is so fucking exhausted down there.

But like the ... it was the wildest thing and also, really clarified some differences between the way that the two countries handle shit often. But then also was this moment of, this also explains why I find Americans a lot of the time are like, “You should know what's happening in our country.” And I'm like, you don't even know necessarily what's happening in the state next to you, nevermind what's happening in these other countries.

And it, and we, none of us have that much detail. And like a lot of times, it's easier to focus on what is happening somewhere else than to focus on what's happening directly next to you.

But if you're going to have an impact, it is going to be a lot easier to deal with whatever is literally in front of you, because you can actually walk over and directly engage with it rather than ... and it's weird ‘cause it's ... like I find sometimes that I feel almost guilty that I don't engage more with stuff that is not even happening ... and because also I think nationalism is bullshit anyway, and borders are fake and all of that or should be ... are fake.

But ... It's also one of these weird things where I'm like, I barely have the energy today to notice what's happening in my own city. And y'all are telling me that I'm supposed to yell about something that's happening in your country?

That ... for example, Flint, which has had an ongoing water advisory issue for way longer than it should have. And that is a problem. And also there have been boil water advisories for literally generations within Canadian communities,

particularly on reserves. And so if I have energy to be focusing on like water purity and water access, I like, it makes more sense for me to be trying to do something within a country where I actually have a say that will be listened to.

And where I have more ... and I am like ...

amanda midkiff: And more understanding.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. And like more awareness and nuance of and access to ... like relatively easy access to, what are the sources that are going to teach me more. I know, okay, this person like this ... it's just, I don't know. And none of this absolves any of us from just like completely shutting off everything that's happening in the world.

But I think there needs to be something more flexible and a little bit more awareness and acceptance of the gray area of, when do we have energy? And then when we do have energy, how are we using it? And when we don't have energy, what are we doing to ... 'cause it's not even a marathon. It's literally just a never-ending ...

amanda midkiff: Existence. Yeah. ash alberg: Yeah. So ...

amanda midkiff: Something I think a lot about is I know, I know the kind of work that I want to do in the world. And I have excessively thought about it to decide that it is useful and it is well suited to me. And to do that kind of work, there are some things I need to be an expert in.

Maybe say, I don't know, however you categorize them. Maybe there's five things maybe that I need to be an expert in. And as you said, nearly all of them are extremely local. And I can do a lot of really good work in my little area. I'm also someone who, I can get paralysis, despair paralysis like that. [Snaps.]

ash alberg: Yeah, totally.

amanda midkiff: Like it's, it's one movie and there's a torture scene or, it's like some layers of news. Like I get despair paralysis very quickly. And so what I want for myself and maybe I’m like ... the most bad-ass version of Amanda would be like, what is the information I need to do the work I'm here to do?

And then the rest of it, I can absorb just so I know what my fellow humans are going through. I can't afford to wallow in it because of other work I have to do so important. And I'm not going to say that that's where I am, but that's what I'm working towards because ultimately it's like expending all this emotional energy on things that are not the place where I'm going to be putting my work energy.

Then that's just taking away from the good work that I am here to do that I have decided is appropriate for me to be doing, I'm good at, I want to do, and can make a difference. You know? Yeah.

Okay. So all this is to say [Ash cackles] that I wanted to get off social media for a long time. It was hard for me to believe that I could do it.

I got so fed up and annoyed that I just stopped using it. This must have been, it must have been around the fall because I remember, and I don't remember exactly when RBG died. I don't know if it was like ... it wasn't like, as if like after that moment I immediately stopped using it. But I remember the first launch that I did with almost not using it at all was a ritual, my ritual and smoke program which I launched in early October and that launch, I didn't make, I didn't get as many students that I wanted, but it was enough for me to get by.

And I decided that was the signal that I can stop using it. Yeah. And so I don't know exactly when I completely haven't used it since. I didn't make the official posts until even maybe like a few weeks ago ‘cause I didn't want to like, re-install Instagram on my phone to do that.

ash alberg: Yes. [Laughs.]
amanda midkiff: And I have an all or nothing personality too. Like taking it off

my phone, I don't even think about it. I don't care. ash alberg: Yeah, totally
amanda midkiff: But having it on my phone. ash alberg: It's too much easy access. Yeah.

amanda midkiff: Yeah. So started using Instagram and I didn't have, my main goal was to like, just start writing more emails. And then I hired someone to do Pinterest for me, which has been amazing.

And then slowly started a YouTube channel. But it's amazing that once I decided to not use Instagram and Facebook at all, that freed up so much mental space and then there's been slow layers of unfolding of a lot of understanding and ideas that I've had since then.

ash alberg: Love it.

amanda midkiff: And one thing, this is what led to ... I'll try and be succinct about this, but it occurred to me after Instagram ended ... after Instagram ended? [Ash cackles.] After I stopped using Instagram that when I was trying to inspire myself by Instagram, I thought, when I'm thinking about “what do I want people to experience when they're using my account?” I thought, okay, basically I'm cultivating like a magazine for my people.

Different types of posts, ‘cause to me, I always felt like I enjoyed Instagram because it felt like flipping through a magazine and I miss magazines so that was fun. And I, but I realized after I stopped using it, like I never wanted to be a magazine editor, that was never the way my brain worked. Whereas I have written letters my entire life, and I feel like I am my best and my funniest and my most clever when I'm writing letters.

I've done that, like I have a number of aunts who are like, basically they could be my grandma. And so I've written them letters. I've written friends letters. I've written letters to people I'm like in love with. I love writing letters.

And I really, so that I realized just was well suited to my nature for email marketing. And then I liked the YouTube because making YouTube video for me, it was just like, you're teaching a mini class and I teach classes, that's what I do. Easy peasy.

ash alberg: You also take really beautiful videography. [Laughs.] I remember ...

amanda midkiff: Oh, I don't do that.
ash alberg: Whoever does it does a great job. [Laughs.] amanda midkiff: Oh no, oh no.

Yeah. [Ash laughs.] So I, this was the other thing again, I finally hired someone. So I hired this person who’s a friend, so she has a background in food television. I know her because my relationship with this barbecue cooking school.

So I hired her to film all my ritual and programs. So there's four. For folks listening, there's ritual and potion, ritual and smoke, ritual and bath, and ritual and spells. So it's all these different types of magic.

So I hired my friend Kendra to film them and they're beautiful. And that's another thing with me is I'm not someone who takes pictures in my life. I almost never do that. And I don't take videos. And so it was really hard for me to force myself to do that, to create content.

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda midkiff: And I could have a whole YouTube channel where it's just me taking selfie videos, but in reality, I'm never going to do that. I'm just not going to, so it makes more sense for me to hire someone to do it. Then she's doing this amazing, like garden nature videos. The sound quality is good. I'm relaxed.

I have a colleague, which is great. I have accountability. It gets done.

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda midkiff: So yeah, so that's what makes the YouTube videos work. [Ash laughs.] But so I was talking about this whole concept of how I really enjoy writing letters, but I never wanted to be a magazine editor, et cetera, to a friend of mine who said, “Why don't you just write people letters then? Like actual letters.”

My mind was blown. And so then I worked about, set about making that happen ‘cause I realized that's a great suggestion. And someone who was ... it was, is in the local site circle. Like she's taken a lot of classes with me and then she's become a friend, is a professional calligrapher.

ash alberg: Cool.

amanda midkiff: Yeah, and had, she had a business doing wedding invitations. A paper letter sending expert.

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda midkiff: And I realized that I wanted to write a letter that was like, you feel like you're getting a letter from like this witch in the woods, was very mystical, but also that feels like it's sent from your great aunt. There's like newspaper clippings and random stuff and maybe like a picture.

And so I set it up putting this letter together and my friend Tracy and I, we mailed them on Monday. But, so these are some things that have happened when this letter, ‘cause this was whole experience. The first thing that happened was, so I wrote the letter and I, so the letter was a little heavier than I wanted it to be.

ash alberg: Mmkay.

amanda midkiff: And I was thinking of what to include to lighten it up. And I had again had this idea that I wanted it to feel like you're reading newspaper clippings. So I care a lot about paper texture. So I have newsprint books around for writing in ‘cause I do a lot of my brainstorming on newsprint because I like the texture of the paper.

ash alberg: Yes.
amanda midkiff: And so it occurred to me that I could just print for my

computer on newsprints.

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda midkiff: So I created an advice column, a fake advice column. And I included a little thing. So there's like a typical advice column question answer but then I said if you want to write in, I just gave my address and email address, so like people who get the letters, if they want to write into the advice column, they can do that.

And then, and I don't want to give too much away from the letters in case anyone wants to get them. But I'll say there is a fictional store that I have wanted to bring to life in my mind. The store has been on my mind and I wanted to bring it to life for years, and the store is called Thistlebits and Nettlements.

ash alberg: Oh my god. Yes. [Laughs.]

amanda midkiff: And the store sells ... they’re purveyors of minor irritations and magical annoyances.

ash alberg: [Whispers.] Oh my god.

amanda midkiff: So the store sells things that makes your life just a little less nice [Ash laughs and snorts.] and less comfortable, a little more annoying. And you buy for people that you would like to get subtle revenge on.

ash alberg: Oh my god. That is hilarious.

amanda midkiff: Yeah. So if there's someone in your life that you don't like, and you want to make their life a little worse, but you're okay with not taking credit for it, you can buy something from Thistlebits and Nettlements, for instance a powder that makes the neck of your t-shirt itch or a cabinet door cushion that makes the cabinet door not close.

ash alberg: Oh my god. [Snorts.]

amanda midkiff: Or so in this ... I have wanted to bring this store to life for so long. And I realized it ... so I made a Thistlebits and Nettlements sale advertisement and put it on the back of the advice column. And I was like, oh my god, this fictional newspaper can be a whole creative outlet for me.

ash alberg: Yes, totally. Oh my god. This is so funny. [Laughs.]

amanda midkiff: Yeah. Enamored with this letter idea. And again, like these are all creative things where I'm like, maybe I could be doing shit like this would the internet, but that's just not who I am and that's not how my brain works and that kind of thing isn't gonna come forth for me in that way.

This is the other thing I realized. I was walking into the woods yesterday and this is the other thing I realized about the letter. So when I write letters, I would write dear Ash, right, on say the left. Can't write that way. And then on the right in the corner, I put the date and where the letter was written.

ash alberg: Okay. Yeah.

amanda midkiff: So for this letter I wrote on the cusp of solstice, summer solstice 2021. And then I wrote maybe something about the Delaware, like from

the banks of the Delaware, something like, oh from a creek that flows into the Delaware. That's what I wrote because I that’s where I wrote the letter.

And I realized that the amazing thing about a letter is that it comes from a time and place.

ash alberg: Yes!

amanda midkiff: And that is less stressful for me. Whereas it comes through ... A letter arrives from a context, and everyone understands that the letter is from that context.

ash alberg: Yes.
amanda midkiff: And the Stressful thing for me about the internet is that

there's no context. ash alberg: Yes.

amanda midkiff: And so you have situations where like myself, or there's other witchy business teacher we know where people are like, okay, you're writing about summer solstice right now, but I live in a different hemisphere. Why aren't you writing about winter solstice for me?

Or and for me, I'm like, I am from this one very specific part of the world. I have lived here almost my whole life. I was hired for three months, I lived in Peru. I've lived in this little spot in the mid-Atlantic. My matrilineal line has lived in this little spot here as farmers, for like a few hundred years, like I'm from here. This is my only life experience.

I'm like a 31-year-old white woman who lives in the mid Atlantic. That's who I am. And so those are the herbs that I know. I don't know about herbs from other parts of the world.

ash alberg: Yes!

amanda midkiff: This is what my experience is. And so I can not make content that is for everybody. I can't make content that's relevant for everyone ‘cause I'm not relevant to everyone. And that's okay!

If someone lives in California or if someone lives in Australia, maybe they want me to be their herbal witchy teacher but I'm probably not the best teacher for them. And that type of pressure to create something that could be relevant to anybody and that you're accountable to through the rest of history.

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda midkiff: It was very overwhelming to me. And so the letters are better.

ash alberg: I love this so much. And oh man, you brought up so many fantastic points there of ... ‘cause I'm the same, right? Like the climate where I live is so very specific and our growing season is so fucking short. And especially when we are involved in the life cycles of our plants, like yes, part of me is yeah, I want to, my dream land, at some point will include a subtropical climate greenhouse so that I can build relationships with the plants that I really love that absolutely will not survive in this place otherwise and I would not survive living full-time where they survive because I like, I am literally not built for that shit.

Like I, my, we joke that I am so white I am translucent and it is so true. So pale you can see my veins. And my body does not regulate temperature properly, and my bones are not cool with damp things.

And so it's like very specific. Honestly, probably when I am a multimillionaire, I'll just end up like shuffling myself around the world to different properties, depending on the season where I'm like, okay, my bones need this right now. All right, we're going to go here. And then ... but yeah, there's something that is like so wonderful as well about being and knowing and especially that bone knowledge, right, of this is what it is to live in this place. This is what it is to know these plants and get to know them year after year in the same space and really come to understand their life cycles and what the different climate shifts and the different growing conditions due to them year after year.

And yeah, to know and understand every single different climate space is impossible. And also not necessary, right? Like I love learning about the plants in different places. And I'm very excited when I like meet a new plant and I'm like, cool, like you and I are buddies. And I also find that a lot of times the plants that I am the most excited about getting to know end up being related to the plants that I already have a relationship with.

Things like [Amanda says something inaudible.] Yeah, exactly. And so it's ... there's something that's like really special about that. And it's, with natural

dyeing, then my relationship with plants has ... it's different from my medicinal practice, although there's definitely overlap. And the thing that has forced me to get really nerdy about my plant knowledge is the fact that northern natural dye plants are not particularly well-documented.

And they're not the ones that like also just through colonialism and the history of dyes and the trade of dyes and colonialism, then the colors that are the most desirable commercially are also the colors that do not grow here for the most part. We can cultivate them. It takes a lot more. When I have my subtropical greenhouse, then I will grow more of them and maybe have an indigo vat living that exists year-round because it's literally impossible to maintain one where I live for the full year. And that's okay.

But yeah, there's something that is really special about like developing just that deeper relationship with the land. And also if you have ancestral lineage that comes from a different land space, then what are the connections? What are the differences?

I think that's also where, like the related plants can become really special, like where people who have been displaced for whatever reason, or who have chosen to move for whatever reason, find then new plant allies that then end up doing similar things to their plants from back home. And there's something really magical and special about that.

But I don't know. I just went on a really long ...

amanda midkiff: This is actually, this is something I wanted to toss in when we were talking about awareness and activism. This is something I was thinking about the other day. I think ... so my, my whole path, my adult life began as a veggie farmer, I was a veggie farmer for a while and I cared, still care a lot about local food.

And that led me to, then I had been studying herbalism. Then I started caring about where these herbs come from and that's how I started growing herbs, et cetera. So I think a lot about, I think a lot about sourcing.

And I also have spent a lot of time thinking about trash. And so in those two ways, I had spent a lot of time thinking about the concept of elsewhere and how we are extremely dependent on the concept of elsewhere. It doesn't matter if we're having a drought, we'll ship it in from elsewhere.

It doesn't matter if our soil is depleted, we'll ship it in from elsewhere. It doesn't matter how much garbage we use, it'll go elsewhere. And so I thought about, I have thought about that extensively, but the other day I was also again, thinking about global awareness and whatnot. And I'm because I'm also trying to have a little bit more of an attention diet if you will. And even like reading the news slightly less and just being more aware of where my attention goes, and I'm realizing again, like I'm never someone who wants to live in a hole.

Like I thought about this when I was in my young twenties, I was like, do I just want to homestead? And I'm like, no, I want to be really, I do want to be engaged with the world. I don't just want to seclude myself on a homestead. However, I was, I've been realizing how, the more time we spend thinking about elsewhere, problems that exist say, I don't know, more than 50 miles away from you, the more time ... I'll just speak for myself. The more time I spend thinking about worrying about being engaged with elsewhere, the less I am doing and understanding here.

ash alberg: Yes.
amanda midkiff: And there are so many things and you know, a person only

has so much mental space and time and capacity to absorb information.

And I, once, once I live in a permanent home, I'd really like to become involved in local government. I care a lot about local land use and sustainability, and I would like to steward land and help to reforest and plant native species. And all of these things require a very high level of understanding about my natural ecosystem, the exact soil and water movement on one property, land use regulations and zoning regulations in one specific township and/or county.

And these are all things that require a lot of knowledge and they're very within my capacity to do work in. But the more time I spend learning about things that are very far away from me, the less time I can spend learning about that. Yes. And over the years, I had been slowly developing more understanding about natural ecosystems, et cetera, herbs that grow close to me, like all these things.

And I sometimes I could, I could easily see myself being criticized for people for not knowing as much as about certain other things, because when you're in gatherings, like when I'm in gatherings with people who aren't plant people, there's a lot of topics or shows, people talking about shows, things that people

talk about I often don't know a lot about because I've spent more time learning about this really like niche set of things.

And so if those things are not the things that people are talking about, I feel like sometimes I can seem somewhat like ignorant. But I'm exaggerating. This is something that happens more in my head than like people ... [Ash giggles.] But I guess I just get defensive in my own imagination about conversations that it haven’t actually happened.

ash alberg: I do the same thing. [Chuckles.]

amanda midkiff: I guess I'm just saying like the more I look forward to moving into this next phase of my life, where I'm really engaged locally, I can really understand how I need to, that's where I need to concentrate my awareness and understanding because even issues within one township, within one very small area are very complex and you can see better work if you understand them.

And that is the kind of work that I feel called to do, and I do feel like it's important because this is the land around me. This is where I live.

ash alberg: I love that so much. I guess in theory we should get to the official questions, which I feel like we've actually, we've addressed a lot of it in quite direct ways sometimes.

But can you speak a bit about your relationship with ritual and magic? And ritual is obviously very important to you. [Laughs.]

amanda midkiff: Ritual is so important to me. I, so I was raised very evangelically Christian, and I stepped away from that probably when I was 16, 17. And I decided, I've always been like a very spiritual person and very, pretty like zealous person.

So I left that religion, but I'm not some ... I didn't leave and become an atheist or anything like that. And I gave myself a few years to figure out what I could know was true and felt was true. And then at that time I started taking a yoga class that I thought was just going to be stretching and then turns out it was like also really involved with yoga philosophy and that I think informed really the rest of my life so far.

So that gave me a nice spiritual practice. But then I also, and there was an anthropology class I had in college. And it was about, I think it was about

Trinidad. It was basically about like rituals, and like the way life happened in marriages and weddings and all that, in this one place.

And it occurred to me at that time, like this being maybe like four or five years after leaving Christianity that, oh, okay, I don't, I'm not part of this religion anymore. I'm going to miss the rituals.

ash alberg: Yeah.

amanda midkiff: It occurred to me that ... how important rituals are and that, that would be something that I needed to then create for myself, to have meaningful rituals. And I know that as I'm really proponent of creating our own rituals that are meaningful. And I know that when you are an adult and you start crafting your own rituals, they're not going to quite have that same heft as perhaps something that you grew up doing and that you knew your ancestors have been doing for hundreds of years.

However, for me, like the authenticity is more important than like the heft of tradition. Though that can feel nice and give you a sense of belonging, but it also can give you a sense of exclusion.

ash alberg: Yes. Yeah.

amanda midkiff: So that became more prominent in my mind. And also I, this is something that, you know, when you look back it all forms part of this perfect path, but the time I had no fucking clue.

So when I was in, when I was in college my plan was to go to law school and work with agricultural trade between the U.S. and their southern neighbors. And so that was really, all the things I studied had to do with studying sociology, anthropology anything I could about like agriculture and Spanish, and then I was planning to go to law school.

So I decided to study abroad in Peru and I chose this program where I would be, I was in a home stay the whole time. And the focus was on global ... like the relationship between globalization and indigenous people and the types of issues they faced. And then I had a whole month to do my research project.

And so I of course wanted to work with people who were agriculturalists in some way. So I chose to live with alpacedos, people who raise alpacas.

ash alberg: Cool.

amanda midkiff: And but, and this is so funny. It was amazing. And the thing that I chose my research topic on, which is only funny now in hindsight, is the relationship between the people who raise alpacas and the rituals involved in raising alpacas. So it was about how people related to the rituals surrounding alpaca care.

ash alberg: Oh my god.

amanda midkiff: And I, yeah! So in order to do that, of course you have to learn what the rituals are. It's, so in that town, in that specific town, it was pretty equally divided between Protestants and Catholics. Catholics practiced the rituals. Protestants did not.

ash alberg: That is so typical. [Laughs and snorts.]
amanda midkiff: Yeah. Because when Catholics arrivedm they were not able to

conquer out the spiritual beliefs and practices.

Yeah. But then, so they created ... allowed this like sincretismo of the two, whereas Protestantism came to the area in the eighties and was able to be like, if you're part of this religion, you're not able to do the rituals anymore. And no one who was Protestant seem that happy about not doing the rituals, but after extensive interviews, I realized that the reason most people, especially particularly in that town I could say, had converted to Catholicism or Protestantism from Catholicism was because that type of Protestantism did not allow drinking, and so people would convert when there was an alcoholic in the family.

ash alberg: Wooww. Oh my god.

amanda midkiff: So people were converting, not ... people were just converting basically to save their families from alcoholism or to stop, to curb one person's bad behavior. One person, really. One man, basically, his bad behavior.

So that was fascinating. So looking back, I'm like, wow, that was really, that was my first and thorough but deep introduction to like earth-based ritual and

worship. And that began my understanding looking at, starting to understand what are the components of ritual? How do we create ritual space?

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda midkiff: ‘Cause like when you start to just look at something from an anthropological lens, you can like really analyze it a lot more. And from then I started using that lens to think about the common rituals in our culture and to think okay, so what are the parts of the ritual?

How do we create those sensations? How do we create transformation, et cetera. And part of all of these “ritual and” classes is, I give a lesson on ... I teach a framework for crafting, meaningful ritual for yourself, so that you can do it for yourself. And then throughout the programs, while we're learning like a different type of magical herbal technique, you're also going through the programs and I'm giving you rituals for the different parts of the program and et cetera.

And. Yeah, I just ... so I'm planning a wedding right now. So of course like the ... this is going to be like the longest ceremony and ritual.

ash alberg: So much ritual.
amanda midkiff: So much ritual. I, this is, I've married three couples already.

I'll be marrying a fourth one on winter solstice. I love weddings and marriage.

And yeah, I know. There's such a trend now for these really short wedding ceremonies ‘cause people like love to hate wedding ceremonies, I think.

ash alberg: Yes. And it's so interesting. We’ll have a chat about weddings separate from this podcast episode, but I like, I find weddings so fucking fascinating and so problematic in so many ways.

And also they can be so beautiful and what I have come to deeply love during the pandemic, because COVID has fucked up so many rituals, like I ... Yule season is like my favorite season of the year and we have always done Christmas in my family and this past year, I was unable to get a Christmas tree, or a Yule tree, because ... and I always get a live one, and then I harvest a bunch of the tree before it then goes to the compost because then I use it for natural dyeing and it's the loveliest thing.

But this year, people who were unable to travel which lots of folks do during the holidays instead decided that they would make up for that by just buying all of the trees and having multiple trees in their homes.

And/or like actually getting a tree because they were going to be home this year. And so they were literally sold in the city and outside of the city, by I think December 2nd, it was ridiculous.

amanda midkiff: What?!

ash alberg: It was ridiculous. So that made me really sad and also like really fucked up, honestly, my whole sense of the holiday season, because I normally get ...

amanda midkiff: That’s your ritual, help us understand the passage of time!

ash alberg: Yes! And it's also, it's, it creates like scent in the home. Like it's just, it's physical it's like multisensual. It's, yeah. So not having it really fucked up my concept of the whole season. Eventually I made just a little fake one with lights and that actually made me feel a little better.

[Both talking at the same time.]
amanda midkiff: That’s beautiful, actually.

ash alberg: It was really cute and it actually did make me feel a little better. Also this year I'm going to fucking get a tree. [Laughs.] A friend of mine was like, “I have a bunch of straggly, Charlie Brown ones on my back 40, feel free to come and get one.” I was like, I will be there.

So I have this year planned, at least. But yeah, the, and then like today I was walking home from therapy and I saw some, there are multiple wedding stores actually, like dress stores on my route. And I was walking past one of these stores and there were a pair of people standing outside and I looked at to see, like, why are you just standing outside? And there was a young person who was trying on what looked like a grad dress in the store and they couldn't be in the store with her. [Amanda groans.]

And they're like, she, like the person's like standing at the window to be like, do you like the dress? And they're like, oh ... [Amanda groans.] And I was like, this is so fucked up.

So COVID has really fucked with rituals in general, but I think it has also helped people maybe to a. recognize how important ritual and ceremony are, and then to start figuring out, if you're only able to do a certain part of a ritual, what is the important part? And what I have loved seeing also, because I follow a lot of florists and wedding photographers on Instagram, is the number of people shifting to a elopements, which I am a hundred percent onboard with elopments because I actually find what ... I've been to some beautiful wedding ceremonies and I've also been to some really fucking uncomfortable ceremonies.

And I am all about eloping with your person, having ... or persons ... like having that beautiful little ceremony that is just about you, just about your union. You have the person who's officiating, your photographer, which in my case will be Samson, because I once said to him, I was like, I don't know what I'll do about photography ‘cause you'll be a guest and he got mad at me. He was like, I'm doing your photos. I was like, okay.

And and then there'll be somebody else who's like the other witness, but like just to have this like really beautiful, intimate little thing. Wou wear what you want to wear. You have an increased budget for like booze and really good food.

And then have your honeymoon built into the experience. And then at the end of it, then you can come home and have the party with all of the people, but all of the opinions that they might have had and held very strongly are not relevant. Look, they can have their opinions about what, like chinawear you're using, but it's just, it reduces some of that pressure.

But yeah, so he like got mad at me and was like, no, I'm doing your photography. So it's, you got your officiant, you got your photographer, which in my case is one of my dear ones. And then you get like your other witness and that's it. It's just about you. It's just about what the union is. There's no pressure.

You have, you wear what you want to wear. You have a great budget for really good food, really good booze. You like, work your honeymoon basically into it. And then you can come home and celebrate with other people without having all of the weird, a. there's the wedding tax that's just attached as far as budgets, but then also just the weird opinions that people who are not actually part of the

pairing or the partnership, or, the relationship they have all of the weird opinions about what your day should look like according to them.

And it's, what? At what point did we decide that somebody else's opinion about our flowers and our chinawear and what gets served for a meal and down to these weird little nitty-gritty nuances ... and then, if you want to have, if there's especially, if there's like fights or conflict with certain guests that you would love to be there, then you can just have multiple parties, right?

It's, okay, we're going to celebrate with you. We're going to celebrate with you. We're going to celebrate with you. And have all of the different celebrations that you want so that people can support the union, but not have also then the weird pressure that seems to be very specifically attached to the wedding itself.

amanda midkiff: Oh yeah. These are two things. This is, these are two thoughts about that. One is that I think ultimately, one thing that a wedding does is it defined ... it's the people who are getting married, the event is defining what is important to them. And they are using the event to state who is their family and what is important to them.

And that process is always going to involve a lot of boundary setting, declaring yourself an adult now. These are sorts of things that are very hard and are going to ... they're hard and different people are different levels of good at them or like are practiced at those types of things.

So whether you have a small wedding, whether you have a big wedding, you are always, the wedding is always in some way defining who's important to you and who your family is. And then, and this I've been thinking about a lot in terms of the opinions. Wedding is basically a hyper sigil of what you want your whole relationship to be.

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda midkiff: And so in a way, a lot of things, not that every little thing's important, but you're, again, you are deciding which things are important. And then you are presenting them and you are using the intentionality to again, create this like hyper sigil for the rest of your relationship. And I don't think that, say my general family is thinking about it that way, but I think that there is this sense that with the wedding in that way, details can matter.

They don't have to, but they can. And I think that is why the wedding rando details seem to take on outsize importance, even if that is like subconscious.

ash alberg: Yes. That makes so much sense. And yeah, the defining of family and also setting of boundaries and like clearly defining this is the intention of this like ... not new family unit because the family unit was already ... with the exception of arranged marriages, like it's already been existing, but there is a shift and there that's where the ritual of a wedding ... and there's the legal side of things and then there is the ritual side of things where you are stating, “I am committing to this relationship in a serious way that ...” and I have my feelings around like why we place more or less validity on certain relationships, depending on those sorts of things.

But separate from that, there is still something really sacred about the entire, the hyper sigil of the wedding and what it signifies for that particular relationship. And I think that's where it also gets really interesting where people who are not part of the union, or a part of the relationship, have opinions that they feel should be recognized.

And I guess it is also just almost like a natural reaction to what can sometimes be extremely crunchy and uncomfortable with somebody setting a boundary around, “this is the way that I want your position within this relationship to be. And it is outside of the ... here's the boundary and you are outside of the boundary potentially.”

And a lot of people are going to be outside of that boundary because ultimately, you are defining a new space and you are defining what family looks like to you. And that is not necessarily going to be what the formal family has looked like up until that point. And people are going to have their feels about that and may or may not process those feels in in a respectful way potentially.

But yeah, it's so interesting how then almost the way that it can come out is in caring really deeply about this one very specific detail, which if it is a detail that is really important to the people who are actually getting married, then it's like, it causes conflict. And if it doesn't matter, then you're like, okay, fine, whatever.

But it becomes this like weird little dance, which also, depending on the people who are getting married and the person who's pushing back about whatever the weird little thing is, then it can become this weird boundary dance as well of our

... how much are you going to allow this other person's opinion to then influence the way that you were doing things?

What does that say? I'm just like going full bore over here. And what does that say about what that person's role is going to be within the context of your relationship after the wedding? Like it's ... yeah.

amanda midkiff: Yeah. And it’s a hyper sigil. ash alberg: Yeah. Yeah. So fucking wild.

amanda midkiff: Yeah, the hyper sigil thing has been coming into clear focus because John and I are having a lot of trouble choosing a first dance song. And I think the first dance song is so much pressure ‘cause it's a big part. It's like a really glaring part of the hyper sigil.

ash alberg: Yes. Yes. Oh my god. amanda midkiff: So anyway ...

ash alberg: Same with like the speeches. This is, I think this is the thing, is that I'm a pretty solid control freak. And that's also part of why I like the elopement because it's like, this would allow me to control the bits that I want to control [Amanda laughs] and then not worry about the shit that could go wrong.

There's always at least one part, there's always a really beautiful speech. And then there's the other speech that you're like, there's always the two extremes of something that just makes everybody sob and laugh and it's so beautiful. And then there's the person who tells like really inappropriate stories that like, are weird and like embarrassing and not actually that relevant to like the person now as well, within the context of their relationship.

But it's like an old version of them that they have composted. But now we're just going to bring it up at this really strange moment. [Laughs.]

amanda midkiff: So our wedding, you would hate this. This would make you crazy. [Ash laughs and snorts.] So this is what we were doing, ‘cause I'm all about ... John and I are people who like go to open mics and I'm all about people sharing their feelings all the time.

Like I ...

ash alberg: Oh my god. You're just going to have an open mic.

amanda midkiff: My thing with ritual ... Yeah, this is what's going to happen. So I love ... something that bothers me about any ritual, specifically weddings and funerals, is when they're not participatory. And when, aside from the people going through them, there's an audience. I don't like that.

So at our wedding, in the ceremony, there's going to be about 45 minutes of Quaker-style, silent worship.

ash alberg: Oh my goodness.

amanda midkiff: And I don't know if you're familiar with what that is. But in in Quaker-style silent worship, Quaker-style silent worship, everyone sits in silence and when the spirit moves you, you speak.

And so at weddings, best case scenario is that [both giggle, Amanda snorts] ... people stand up and they give, they say beautiful things. Like they give marriage advice, they talk about life. They give relationship advice. They talk about their marriages, or they tell nice stories about the couple, how the couple met, whatever. And it's just like beautiful moving time. But again, you're surrendering control. [Ash laughs.]

So then our, so that's part one. And our reception for our cocktail hour is going to be an open mic.

ash alberg: Oh my god.

amanda midkiff: And so we're not selecting people to give toasts. Anyone can give a toast, give a poem or perform a song. ‘Cause we have a lot of friends who are poets and musicians so we ... that's cool. And we have this ... so I wanted to propose to John at this open mic we used to go to, but then it was COVID so that didn't happen. But the person who ran the open mic is a friend of ours and that person's going to be running the open mic at our wedding. [Audio distortion.]

I hope it's going to be good. I don't know. [Ash laughs.] So yeah. So there's going to be a lot of open, free, the mic is yours, sharing time. And for me it's that's the surrender. Who knows what people are going to say? We have a lot of

like Christians coming to the wedding so they'll probably be giving Bible verses or things like that.

And it's you know what? John wanted to invite those parts of our families. And so we are. And maybe that's not what I would've wanted, but it's his wedding too, and so it's a big wedding with extended family coming and it's going to be what it's going to be. I think for me, it's you just have to accept that’s that person's relationship with the divine and that's how they see things and hopefully they stay as kind?

I dunno, we'll see.
ash alberg: That is wild. You are a braver human than I am. [Cackles.]

amanda midkiff: But also like, oh god. We could talk about this for the next hour. Maybe we shouldn't. [Ash snorts.] I'll just say this last thing, is that I, the people around me are used to me taking a different path. And so we are not really getting any pushback about how really like bizarre our wedding's going to be to a lot of people.

I only had just had one weird conversation with a sister-in-law who was interrogating me about these random things, including the dishes! Like I don’t give a fuck about this. I don't understand why this is a big deal to you!

ash alberg: Oh my goodness. [START HERE: 1:00:07]

amanda midkiff: It was just so weird, but that's the only, that's the only thing. Aside from that, I'm just like, I want everyone to understand. I want people to participate. I hope they do participate.

And I think people need to understand that the ceremony's going to be long, so they better bring hats, ‘cause it's going to be sunny.

ash alberg: [Laughs and snorts.] Oh my god. Okay. That's a great little end point of that particular tangent. I love it though. And I definitely want to talk more wedding shit with you at a separate point.

amanda midkiff: I would love to, I love weddings ‘cause it's the most common ritual that we do really. The most common happy ritual that we do.

ash alberg: Yeah, exactly. Funerals are not always ... Okay. So, how then does ritual and magic play out in your biz? And obviously sometimes extremely explicitly.

amanda midkiff: Yeah, I would say the most obvious way is that I teach people to do ritual and I teach how to work with plants for magic. So that's so obvious, you know why I've talked about it.

So let me think about the less obvious. [Ash giggles.] I use ... the more that I use my ... I guess I often use the word spiritual or magical interchangeably, but I'd say the more I use my magical connection with plants to help me make decisions, the better my business is and the more authentic it is to me. And the more authentic it is to me, the more money I make, which is great because that makes my life better.

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda midkiff: And the funny thing is, working with magic, it's like having this whole toolbox and you have to remember to use the toolbox when you need the tools and you have to make the time to use the tools. And so as much as I, and I guess I'll just say, my biggest goal with teaching people magic is just to help us understand that like it's magic all around us and we can live in an enchanted world.

And the more you spend time, like doing, like sitting down at your altar or in your kitchen to do magic in specific times, the more it will suffuse your world.

ash alberg: Yes.

amanda midkiff: And so my goal is to help people live in an enchanted world and feel a romantic love to plants. Like you feel in love with the plants around you and understand that they are your friends constantly.

And so I, to me, I live in a very enchanted world where there's like mists from around every corner and like a twinkle all around and little toads everywhere. And my world is filled with gnomes and fairies. [Ash giggles.] And so that I

would say is my primary relationship to magic is just this, the texture around me.

And I'll say the more I remember to use these tools that I teach, they are either always helping me to learn something new about myself, to make sense of something that is hard for me, to move through something that is hard for me. And again also to make decisions and to direct my path and help inform my choices and that, because when you run a business, you're always making choices.

There's never a “best” way. There's just the way that you choose. You're just trying to figure out ... there's so many decisions and it's all very unclear. You're creating it as you go, there's ... nothing exists. It's not that you're striving for something that already exists. And you need to pull that out of yourself.

And the more you can peel back the layers of shoulds and the layers of expectations and get to like your authentic expression, then just the better your business is going to be, the better your life is going to be. That's hard though.

ash alberg: Yes.
amanda midkiff: And so magical, the magical tools are some of the main tools

that I use to get there.

ash alberg: So what would you say is like your, if you were going on a trip and you had to bring specific things with you as your toolkit on this trip, what's in your, what's in your tool bag?

amanda midkiff: Oohh. That's a great question. There's a few things I ... I feel like I have to choose like a number. [Ash giggles.] Like for, like magical tools in the tool bag? Okay.

I love spraying things on my face. That is something I love to do. And that might be a hydrosol or that might be a facial spray I make myself with flower essences and like some essential oils.

So there'd probably be a spray. And so every time I make a magical thing that is in some form of bottle, anything that’s like a liquid thing I make, I give a name that is an affirmation.

ash alberg: [Gasps.] Oh, I love that.
amanda midkiff: So ... yeah. So say the trip is like a mission, say the trip has a

purpose. There would be probably a facial spray.

And I would probably have also made a flower essence blend that I'm taking internally. And those, and I've, there's probably like one primary plant that I'm working with as a plant ally that is in my mind, like the leader of the blend. And then there might be like two or more kind of supporting plants in the blend.

So I'd be taking that internally. And there would probably be, you know what I have? Oh, this isn't ... this is just audio recording. I love the little fucking tins.

ash alberg: Yes!
amanda midkiff: There's something magical about tins. The type of tins the

Altoids come in, like that rectangular tin. I have a to-go burning tin ...

ash alberg: Yyesss!

amanda midkiff: So it’s a plain tin like that, that I keep it votive candle, a piece of charcoal and then a matchbook, and then I'll stuff it with dried herbs. So that's my travel, my travel burning herbs tin.

And then I love herbal powders. So I grind the bones of the plants, the stems, into these herbal powders and put them in little glass vials. And then you can keep that with you. And I like to sprinkle that on my head.

ash alberg: I love that so much. I also love the idea of using the stem in that way, because I feel like a lot of times we like don't necessarily give the stem ... like there's so much that is potent in them.

And I think I especially love stems just because of, as a dyer, it's the roots that are particularly good. And then the stems are that extension. And I'm just like, there's so much in this. And it's actually the petals and flower heads and leaves are often, they have a different kind of potency and their chemical makeup is quite different, but the stem feels very much like an extension of the root.

Yeah. That's, I love that idea a lot.

amanda midkiff: Yeah. And then I would definitely bring cards with me. I use cards ... there’s different ways. There's like thousands of ways you can communicate with plants. I do like journeys and just simply sitting and going within and talking to them. Those I do a lot, but if I'm like really stuck, like for instance, in my ritual and spell class, for each of these classes, we work with seven plant allies.

ash alberg: Okay.

amanda midkiff: And so I don't like to use the word teach in this way, but I guess I just say, I would teach the magical characteristics of seven different plants and you connect with them in different ways. And for each of these classes, there are obviously a group of plants that I know better than others and that would be the plants that grow in my garden.

But just choosing, wait, so there's four classes and seven, and it's only 28 plants. I basically like asked, okay, who wants to be in this class? Who wants to be in that class? And then I did some thinking about which potions would I teach, or which crafts would I do and who, who should be in each class.

So I did some thinking about it, but there's also like some kind of channeling involved. So in ritual and spell, which just wrapped up, one of the plant allies ... so that's like a spell class. So we've got these magical, heavy hitters in that class.

Rue. Wormwood. I can't teach wormwood! Like I ...
ash alberg: My new crush. I'm so in love with wormwood.

amanda midkiff: Like, how do you, what do you say about wormwood? Yeah. It's just too ... it feels out of my league.

ash alberg: Yeah. Fair enough.
amanda midkiff: That's what so when ... I was like working on and then the

way things worked out, you this will make you, this was funny.
I dunno. This was funny. [Snorts.] You might find this funny, I’ll say that.

There's five portals, seven plants. So some plants have ... some portals have two plants. So this particular portal, the way things shook out, ended up the pair

of plants in the portal were wormwood and anise hyssop! Which are extremely different plants.

ash alberg: Yeah, just a little bit. [Snorts.]
amanda midkiff: Yeah. So I was like, what am I supposed to do with this?

So anyway, I was really lost. I was really lost about this. Anyway, so I did a card spread about how the plants wanted me to, what they wanted me to say about them, how they wanted me to teach them. And it was so elucidating. And then I did a journey to the spirit of each plant to check in further.

And then that was my curriculum. Done. It's ... I don't even have to do anything. So the card I ended up pulling for it, so the portal was about spell writing, like the actual writing of the words of the spell.

ash alberg: Okay.
amanda midkiff: And it was about writing, and anxiety we have about writing

and all this stuff.

The card I pulled for wormwood was the Death card, which ... [Ash gasps.] I know. Which is, in that deck is called the Journey. And then I don't remember what I pulled for anise hyssop, but basically what became immediately clear as soon as saw that card was like, okay, so wormwood wants to talk about how the first step in writing, every time you write, you die. Part of you dies and you can go beyond that veil.

And then anise hyssop is a sweet substrate that nourishes you afterwards. And it's, you die and then you come back and anise hyssop’s going to feed you. And it became this whole thing that was like very clear, very quickly and very profound.

And then I'll just say, if you try .... this is really fun, ‘cause I did this with this. If you take a little fresh wormwood, you nibble, let it sit, completely ... I feel like it like shatters your aura away so you can like experience anything. Let it sit and then take a sip of anise hyssop tea. And that contrast on your pallet is, it's really something. It’s really something.

ash alberg: I love that so much. Yeah, especially because I recently, so I do not have the greenest thumb. This is the first year that I've had as many plants

growing at one time. Sometimes I get a little overwhelmed, but I'm also very proud of them so we're going to keep going. But I also get an herb CSA because I am that level of nerd.

And so wormwood came in my CSA [Amanda gasps.] and I was like, my mom dropped it off for me because she went and picked it up and I was like, oh my god, something smells really good. And she was like, “Yeah, there was something in the car that smelled really good.” And I shoved my nose ... I was like, I think it's this one. And I shoved my nose in the wormwood and I was like, ooooh yeah, you're the one. [Laughs.]

And my mom was like, “Yeah, that is the one.” I was like, you're the best little buddy. And I just, I now have the world's biggest crush on wormwood. And I'm very excited. I've got like all the plans for it, but yeah, there's just ... I, literally just a bouquet of wormwood is all I really need in life. Like it's just so satisfying.

Also helps that it's like that little dream buddy. That's probably part of why it's my new little friend. Love that. Okay. So if, what do you wish, now that we've gone through your magical tool kit, what do you wish you'd been told about magic or ritual or witchcraft when you were younger?

amanda midkiff: Oh, witchcraft. That's a whole other category. [Ash cackles.] That's a whole other category, because I was raised thinking that everything was devil worship,

ash alberg: Riight. Yes.

amanda midkiff: So we weren't allowed to celebrate Halloween. Tarot cards were evil. Astrology was evil. Everything's evil. Everything's about Satan all the time.

So that's a whole, that’s a whole thing. Ritual. I wish, I don't know if I wish I had been told anything different about ritual because I feel like I ended up at a good place pretty quickly, but I guess I wish, I just wish that more people knew that they could, that they had the authority to craft rituals that support them and are meaningful to them.

And I think it is such a shame when there are weddings and funerals that are impersonal. And when there are ... I think it is a shame when there are major life events that are passed through that ritual, like divorces or I don't know,

pregnancy loss or becoming a foster parent or adoption, or ... there's so many major life moments that happen without ritual acknowledgement, passing into cronehood, that I think is a shame.

And in terms of the magic, I think that ... I think I want people to understand that feeling delight in your heart about magic is not something that you have to give up in order to be a serious and intellectual person in the world.

ash alberg: I love that so much. That just landed really solidly with me because kids are fucking magical little creatures and they see so much more. Like they're able to see and be processing in real time all of the other things that we just shut off, I think, as we get older and yeah, there's like this weird thing that in order to become a grown-up and that involves becoming serious and becoming intellectually smarter, that, that means that we must let go of these other parts.

And I feel like now I'm at a stage in my own life where I'm realizing that it's actually really fucking important to bring the two back together. And then that actually makes me a better human and better creature in the world. And yeah, there's something so profoundly sad about the fact that we teach kids that they have to let go of that really beautiful spark.

And sometimes they find it again and some kids never lose it, but sometimes they don't and that's so shitty.

I love that though. Oh god, that's going to be my little sound clip for this. Okay. So what is next for you?

amanda midkiff: Two things, one of them is more firmly within the realm of reason. I'm really working on expanding my general magical writing right now and through my business.

So I'm working on a book called Materia Magica, which is magical plant profiles of 21 plants. And I have a friend who's an artist, who's in the botanical drawings for that. They're really amazing. We have a Patreon, if you want to check that out and ...

ash alberg: Love it, I will link to it.

amanda midkiff: And I'm working on this book because I feel like when it comes to magic, like connecting with plants, plants are like people, they can show you any side of them. Just ‘cause I have something to say about, “this how

you can connect with a plant magically,” that doesn't mean that's the truth. I'm not the authority on this at all.

And so I'm not writing the book because I feel like I'm an authority on this. I'm writing the book because I feel like every other book I've read about this is so watered down and that pisses me off. It's just stupid. It's not like, “This is for luck, this is for love.” That's not enough. That's not enough.

And so I'm not writing this book because I think that again, that I'm like the authority on like how to connect with these plans magically, but just because they're ... there can be so much more complexity to it and plants are these complex beings and I want to write a book that conveys that. And I believe that, just if someone reads my, the way that I might connect with a plant magically, then that will help them to realize that they can connect with that plant. Maybe it's a jumping off point for them to form their own relationship. Yeah. So that's a book I'm working on.

I've also just started writing these letters, which will be coming out monthly. So you can subscribe to get them monthly, or you can just buy just one and I am shipping them internationally.

ash alberg: Awesome.

amanda midkiff: And then I'm working on restarting something, which I started last summer and then let slide, which is an interactive fiction story, immersive interactive fiction via email.

So it's a choose your own path, magical plant magic story. ash alberg: I love that.

amanda midkiff: Yeah. And that I haven't quite started yet because it's going to be a fuck ton of writing.

ash alberg: [Laughs.] Yes, it will.

amanda midkiff: But I love it. And it's the exact kind of writing I want to do. And so the ... so it's modeled off the “choose your adventure” stories of the nineties. And so the setup is that one day you're in your favorite spot in the

woods, a fog rolls in, you get lost, you stumble upon the cabin in the woods and inside of the cabin, there's a woman who's waiting for you.

And the story begins there.
ash alberg: I'm so excited. [Laughs.]

amanda midkiff: Yeah. So that I'm really excited about. So I'm really working on expanding my writing and that ... this, to tie into my talking about like extroversion exhaustion with teaching is I've been realizing if I really ... ‘cause to do this amount of writing, especially for the choose your own path, ‘cause it's a branching story, so one chapter for one person might be four chapters that I need to write. I really need to rearrange my schedule to do that much writing and I need to be very available for like imaginative time, which for me just means I need to be walking in the woods.

So yeah, I'm just, when you're self-employed you have to constantly be thinking about the best ways to use your time.

ash alberg: Yeah, totally.
amanda midkiff: And that’s why we have divination practice. [Ash cackles.]

‘Cause who the fuck knows how to spend your time? It’s hard, it’s so hard! ash alberg: So true.

amanda midkiff: People who aren’t self-employed don’t realize how hard it is, but it's up to you. So we've got astrology, you've got astrological hours. You've got them in schedule. You've got cards.

ash alberg: You're like, how am I defining my time? Oh, Mercury retrograde is at play? Great, I will not do those things I was planning.

I'll go do this other thing instead.

amanda midkiff: Yeah. Or, oh, so a week and a half ago, apparently that eclipse during Mercury retrograde was in my house of family and relationships. So what did I spend the last week and a half doing? Wallowing in ... not wallowing, [Ash snorts] but like completely unearthing this whole big thing that I had never dealt ...I've succeeded at not dealing with for 31 years.

ash alberg: [Laughs.] Surpriiise! amanda midkiff: Surprise.
ash alberg: Oh, fuck. Yeah.

amanda midkiff: So one, okay, so that's one thing. The other thing is that my partner, John, and I are, we are really actively pursuing, purchasing a piece of land where we can have both of our businesses and steward. And I would tell you about the stage we're at, but nothing, there's nothing final yet.

Everything is in the early stages. So I can't share any news yet, but that is the main thing that is on my mind at all times. And for me, there's been two things I've wanted in my life. And one is to have a long-term relationship with a person where it can develop learning growth through the complexities of relating to another person and just of course have like lovely domestic coziness.

And then the other thing is to have a long-term relationship with a piece of land where I can again, learn through those complexities and do the work and give the worship and the devotion that I enjoy giving. And so that's ...

ash alberg: I love that. I also really appreciate the combination of, an awareness of the fact that a relationship with a person, which is a thing that often we prioritize and prioritize above all else is, truly, you're doing the same thing when you are in relation with the land or you are in relation with your plants or you're in relationship with your fur babies, like it's the same.

It, the expression may be different and the actual rituals and practices may be different, but the same core devotion and worship and attention and nourishing ...

amanda midkiff: And challenge.

ash alberg: Yes. Yes. They're all equally important and they will all teach us different things about ourselves and re-teach us lessons that we need to be constantly relearning and ...

amanda midkiff: Love those lessons.

ash alberg: Oh, gawd. But yeah, that's, I really love that and I appreciate that. Thank you for this. This has been super lovely

amanda midkiff: Yeaah!

ash alberg: And we'll make sure that all of the links where people can find you are linked in the show notes and also included in the outro ‘cause that's the thing.

And yeah, this has been super fun. I am so excited about all of your writing things and I'm going to be buying the book, and I'm going to, as a nineties kid, “choose your own adventure” ... as a nineties kid who was also a bookworm, “choose your own adventures” are just, I'm so stoked about that. In particular, it’s just gonna be fun.

It's so like Hansel and Gretel-y to me, like following breadcrumbs. amanda midkiff: Yes. Oh my goodness. [Ash giggles.] Yeah.

ash alberg: It is going to be so great. Thank you so much for spending your time with me and yeah, I'm so excited for all of the things that are upcoming for you.

amanda midkiff: Yay! Thank you so much, Ash. I've had a great time chatting with you.

ash alberg: [Upbeat music plays.] You can find full episode recordings and transcripts at snortandcackle.com. Just click on podcast in the main menu. Follow Snort and Cackle on Instagram @snortandcackle and join our seasonal book club with @SnortandCackleBookClub. Don't forget to subscribe and review the podcast by your favorite podcasting platform.

Editing provided by Noah Gilroy, recording and mixing by Ash Alberg, music by Yesable.